Talk:German invasion of Hungary (1944)

Move to Operation Panzerfaust

There is a more complete article at Operation Panzerfaust, which seems to cover almost all the same information. I suggest merging the content of the articles into one at Operation Panzerfaust. This is not an episode of the war that I am particularly familiar with, but there seem to be ample sources and the articles already give a good starting point. —Zujine|talk 18:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Upon further research it seems that Operation Margarethe and Operation Panzerfaust were indeed two separate initiatives as part of the Siege of Budapest. While moving the article is probably not the correct approach at this time, I think that this article does still need some serious fleshing out, especially with regard to references and discussing the particulars of this operation within the broader siege. I will start on it. —Zujine|talk 21:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism

I'm not sure if stormfront.org was plagiarising wikipedia or vice-versa, but I found the same wording for a particular section that I just removed [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t438389/ here]. Don't usually spend my time trolling white supremacy forums, but it came up while I was looking for new sources for the article. To be safe, I just removed the section, as I didn't feel it really helped the article much anyway. If I find a reliable source for it, I will restore with proper citation. —Zujine|talk 16:41, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 11 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. This discussion led to a fairly clear consensus to move away from the current title, but with the discussion torn between the titles "German invasion of Hungary" and "German occupation of Hungary". Before the second title was proposed, discussion largely centered on the increased WP:RECOGNIZABILITY of a descriptive title; this argument received widespread agreement, but is equally applicable to both proposals. The Ngrams supplied in the nomination showed that the "occupation" title was the overall most common name for the event. It was also argued that the "occupation" title would be more WP:CONSISTENT with Hungarian occupation of Yugoslav territories, though I'm hesitant to place too much weight on an argument for consistency with just one other title. Supporters of the "invasion" title, meanwhile, argued that adopting the "occupation" title would harmfully change the article's scope; this led to a tangential discussion on whether the invasion and occupation would merit separate articles or not in the first place.

Weighing these arguments, I frankly don't see a consensus – but the lack of consensus around either of the proposed titles does not erase the existence of a consensus to move away from "Operation Margarethe". This leaves me in the position of needing to make a WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE close. In this position, I feel the best practice is to take the more conservative option and move to the originally proposed title, "German invasion of Hungary". Because the question around the article scope of "occupation" remains unresolved, my concern is that adopting that title could lead to lasting editing disputes on this article, a risk that is lessened if the "invasion" title is chosen. Thus, while the consensus here is only "move to a descriptive title instead of Operation Margarethe", I have judged German invasion of Hungary to be the title that comes closest to reflecting the overall will of the discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

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Operation Margarethe → German invasion of Hungary – This title is more commonly recognizable, equally WP:PRECISE, and equally or more commonly used in sources, even excluding any variations such as "Germany invaded Hungary", "Germany's invasion of Hungary", "Germany invaded and occupied Hungary", "Nazi invasion" etc. Including these variations would undoubtedly make it the more common name. (t · c) buidhe 14:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. ExtorcDev (talk) 14:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 04:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. The proposed main title header is a descriptive one. The current header is only recognizable to students of World War II history. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support In ictu oculi (talk) 16:37, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest German occupation of Hungary perhaps? That's the header used for this event at Hungary_in_World_War_II#German_occupation_of_Hungary. "Invasion" suggests resistance from Hungary, even token resistance, but that doesn't appear to have happened. However, an occupation clearly did happen afterward. SnowFire (talk) 19:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Support German occupation of Hungary, which broadly aligns with the use of "occupation" in Hungarian occupation of Yugoslav territories, which was also a virtually unopposed invasion. It is the title of Gy Ránki's 1965 article in Scientiarum Hungaricae, and is formulated as an occupation rather than an invasion in several modern texts such as Hungary in World War II: Caught in the Cauldron by Deborah S. Cornelius and The Axis Occupation of Europe: Then and Now by Winston and Gail Ramsey. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:02, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I support such an article, but not at the expense of one on the actual events of March 1944. So I would oppose that as a move. Srnec (talk) 20:40, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@Srnec: Would something like German occupation of Hungary, March 1944 work then? Maybe not the most concise, but would make clear it was referring to the initial occupation and not the full history. SnowFire (talk) 19:24, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate Srnec's concern, but I don't think that the events of March 1944 justify a separate article, and keeping it separate robs it of necessary context or requires the same context to be added to several articles. The German occupation lasted from March 1944 (Operation Margarethe) through October 1944 (Operation Panzerfaust to replace Horthy) to February 1945 when Budapest was captured by the Red Army. Neither German operation justifies a stand-alone article IMHO, and could both be integrated into a single German occupation of Hungary. If we use Hungarian occupation of Yugoslav territories as an example, it ran from April 1941 to April 1945, and has but one article that covers everything of importance. It is less than 5000 words, and I very much doubt a German occupation of Hungary article would exceed that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:08, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The occupation of a small part of a sovereign territory by a minor power with the occupation of an entire sovereign state by a great power cannot be compared. I think there is more than enough material to sustain three articles on the invasion, occupation and coup d'état. See, e.g., es:Operación Margarethe at the Spanish Wiki. Srnec (talk) 18:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm neutral on whether we should have a separate article on the invasion but if there is one the title should be German invasion of Hungary or German invasion of Hungary (March 1944) for reasons discussed above. To address points raised above the term invasion is used in RS so I don't think we need to be too concerned about reader misconception. There was practically no resistance in Bohemia and Moravia in 1939 but no one says Czechoslovakia wasn't invaded. (t · c) buidhe 19:47, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm neutral on "Operation Margarethe", "Operation Margarethe I", "German invasion of Hungary" or "German invasion of Hungary (1944)". I'm against including the month or using 'occcupation'. I think SnowFire's concern is valid that, in the context of WWII, 'invasion' sounds inflated for what this in fact was. But it is a term widely used in RS and so that concern isn't relevant to the article title. Srnec (talk) 20:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (for now anyway) - I don't think "invasion" or "occupation" accurately summarises what this article is about, which is the military operation conducted by German forces in Hungary in March 1944. I know we have taken against using the names of operations, but in this case how does one exactly summarise the movement of troops into a country that remained a nominal ally and continued fighting on their side, and maintained at least a sufficient degree of autonomy to negotiate a surrender? An article entitled "German invasion" or "German occupation" of Hungary would necessarily have to be broader than the present one covering just the movement of German troops into Hungary and the house-arrest of Horthy. FOARP (talk) 08:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Support as the more intuitive title. Killuminator (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.