Talk:Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station

Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: April 17, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 May 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the New York City Subway stations at 9th, 25th, 59th, and Union Streets, as well as Prospect Avenue, were opened with a competition between two trains heading to Coney Island?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Union Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line).

Wikipedia

Page Move

The article should be at Fourth Avenue-Ninth Street (New York City Subway). That title is used on the current subway map anyways. If no objection is raised, I'll move it tomorrow. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{blah • Spinach crisis '06! • WP:NYCS}} 05:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fourth Avenue–Ninth Street was the originally agreed upon name, so I've just gone ahead and moved it. Marc Shepherd 12:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naming?

This name is used by the MTA: [1] --NE2 11:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was really wondering about whether this should be considered a complex at all, not than the name. The two stations are rather poorly connected. Larry V (talk | e-mail) 21:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I have no opinion on that. --NE2 00:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Split tag

I am removing, as it seems to have been there a while without action taken.

For the record, I strongly oppose a split. Marc Shepherd 23:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming to 4 Av - 9 St

In the following places, the MTA has taken to referring to this as a single complex, 4 Av–9 St:

It still refers to 4 Av or 9 St individually here:

Not sure what to make of this one:

D train line map

So I think there are sufficient grounds to move this article to "Fourth Avenue – Ninth Street". Larry V (talk | e-mail) 23:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:163rd Street–Amsterdam Avenue (IND Eighth Avenue Line) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:17, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk · contribs) 17:36, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonably well written.

a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass
Pass/Fail:

Review

Fourth Avenue Line

"As part of negotiations between New York City and the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company (BRT) and the Interborough Rapid Transit Company" - too many and's. Should say "between New York City, the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company (BRT), and the Interborough Rapid Transit Compan

- Done. epicgenius (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IND Culver Line platforms

Many paragraphs without references
- Fixed. epicgenius (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Service patterns

Are 4 citations needed for the sentence "Express service between Bergen and Church ended in 1976 due to budgetary concerns and passenger complaints, and the GG (later renamed the G) was again terminated at the Smith–Ninth Streets station."
Are 3 citations needed for the sentence "The G extension was made permanent in July 2012."
- Removed both instances of citation overkill. epicgenius (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BMT Fourth Avenue Line platforms

Bottom paragraph needs references
- Fixed with the above. epicgenius (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

References #5, 11, 12, 26, 27, 28, 47 needs an access-date
Citation number 8 appears to be from a group blog (A Progressive Blog About Bay Ridge) which I believe violates WP:SPS.
- Removed
Can citation number 10 be clipped? It currently takes the reader to the whole page and one has to search for the information
- Done
Citation 43, 45 seem unneeded
- Removed
I'm not so sure about the Subwaynut references
- @HickoryOughtShirt?4: Thanks for looking it over. I will pass most of the referencing issues to Kew Gardens 613 for him to look over. Subway Nut is used as an image citation (like in other pages about BMT Fourth Avenue Line stations), and it should be OK for basic facts. Regarding over-citations: that is probably a problem, but it is also an issue on other articles about IND Culver Line stations as well. So I will address these soon. epicgenius (talk) 17:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks so much Epicgenius. I'm also going to add that the photo of Northeastern stairs next to the Church of the Holy Family (bottom of the article) is oddly placed and should either be moved or removed. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - HickoryOughtShirt?4, thanks. I have done all of these, except some of the access dates. I was under the assumption that books don't require an access date because the content never changes.epicgenius (talk) 16:34, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Epicgenius I was just following Template:Cite book and saw it was an option but that seems to be full parameters. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 17:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Epicgenius and ~~KKew Gardens 613~~ congrats! HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Kew Gardens 613 (fixing ping). HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

)

... that the 9th, 25th, 45th, 53rd, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue stations were all opened in 1915 as part of a subway extension to Coney Island? Source: Cudahy, Brian J. (2009). How We Got to Coney Island: The Development of Mass Transportation in Brooklyn and Kings County. Fordham University Press. pp. 217–218.
- ALT1:... that the platforms at the 9th, 25th, 45th, 53rd, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue subway stations were all extended twice? Source: Brooklyn Standard Union 1926; Engineering News Record 1968 p. 75
- ALT2: ... that the 9th, 25th, 45th, 53rd, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue stations were all part of a new subway line to Coney Island? Source: Cudahy
- ALT3: ... that the 9th, 25th, 45th, 53rd, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue stations were opened with a competition between two trains heading to Coney Island? Brooklyn Eagle
- ALT4: ... that the 9th, 25th, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue stations were opened with a competition between two trains heading to Coney Island, while the 45th and 53rd Streets stations' openings were delayed by three months? Brooklyn Eagle; "Stations of Subway are Now Opened". Home Talk the Item. September 22, 1915. pp. 1, 14

Reviewed: Ruby Mazur (1), Alina Lebedeva (2), Collegio Ghislieri (Rome) (3), Ginger (1935 film) (4), 2002 PDC World Darts Championship (5), Vitamin B12 (6), Gruemiri (7)
Comment: Any wording suggestions are appreciated. The oldest were passed as GA 7 days and a few hours ago, but I was asleep at the time the last article was passed, and didn't get a chance to nominate them until the morning. epicgenius (talk)

Improved to Good Article status by Kew Gardens 613 (talk) and Epicgenius (talk). Nominated by Epicgenius (talk) at 12:41, 25 April 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Individual reviews

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of 9th street DannyS712 (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station/GA1 is just over 7 days before nomination, but IAR

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of 25th street DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of 45th street DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:45th Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line)/GA1 is also a tad over 7 days, but IAR

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of 53rd street DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of 59th street DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of Union street DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Review of Prospect avenue DannyS712 (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General

@Epicgenius: for ALT1, I struggled to find the fact on the source linked - where on the page is it / what paragraph am I looking for? --DannyS712 (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, ALT0 isn't really interesting, and can I suggest "9th" instead of "Ninth" to be consistent? --DannyS712 (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DannyS712, thanks for taking this up. ALT1 is actually split up into two different locations in all these articles. I will add these sources to the lead of all the articles. Yes, we can switch "9th" for "Ninth". I have suggested ALT2 too, same source as ALT0. epicgenius (talk) 20:49, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: I meant where in the source is the information / what paragraph in the source page am I looking for? --DannyS712 (talk) 20:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DannyS712 For ALT1, for the first source, the relevant paragraph is on the right side of the page toward the top. The second source is offline. For ALT0/ALT2, the relevant page range is offline but you can check this source too. epicgenius (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the Eagle source also mentions a competition between two trains using the Sea Beach and West End lines, stopping at these stations. Would that make for a good hook? It is not cited in these articles yet. epicgenius (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, found the part in the source for ALT1. But, it appears to only say the extensions were authorized / funded, not that they occured --DannyS712 (talk) 21:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DannyS712: I might have picked the wrong source. Could you check out ALT3? epicgenius (talk) 21:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The stations aren't all mentioned in the source for alt3 --DannyS712 (talk) 21:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All right, for ALT1, I have added this source to all the articles. For ALT0/ALT2, five of the seven stations are mentioned (all except 45th and 53rd) and there are other sources (like this and Cudahy) which show that all of the Fourth Avenue stations opened at the same time. I will add these soon. epicgenius (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DannyS712: So apparently my ALT3 was wrong. I have added an ALT4. Can you take a look at this? Many thanks. I have also fixed the sourcing for ALT0 and ALT2 across all pages epicgenius (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have collapsed the individual reviews to make this more manageable, and removed the AGF for the source for the hook, since it looks like it'll be a different hook than the one those were for. I'll take a look at the alts proposed. Other than the hook being interesting, in the articles, and cited, the other requirements are met. --DannyS712 (talk) 06:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0:

not interesting

ALT1:

Rejected Source does not confirm the hook - it says the extensions were authorized / funded, not that they occured

ALT2:

not interesting

ALT3:

Was withdrawn by nominator

ALT4: Interesting enough, AGF for offline sources. Will check that it is in all the articles and sourced, but barring further complications it should be okay

Alt4 is approved --DannyS712 (talk) 03:28, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately given the overlap between articles, some of these fall short of the minimum 1500 characters of original prose. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:50, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah and Nikkimaria: Would it be all right to remove the 45th and 53rd Street links, given that they are almost identical up to the Exits subsection? These seem to be the odd ones out (having not opened with the rest of the stations). So basically this? epicgenius (talk) 17:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT5: ... that the 9th, 25th, 59th, and Union Streets and Prospect Avenue stations were opened with a competition between two trains heading to Coney Island?

What content are you counting towards which article? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Union Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line) - "1990s renovation" + "Proposed accessibility" + "Exits"
Fourth Avenue/Ninth Street station - "IND Culver Line platforms"
Prospect Avenue station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line) - "2017 renovation" + The material after the first paragraph of "station layout"
25th Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line) - "History" + "Station layout" + "Nearby points of interest"
59th Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line) - Everything except "history". epicgenius (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, seems to add up. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting ALT5, which has been approved verbally. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]