Talk:Fairfax County Public Schools/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Sourcing - No contact rule controversy

I just figured because Tedicky would not address the issues.. Anyway, here is what is in the CNN article.

KOCH: Henry Beaulieu was shocked.

HENRY BEAULIEU: This is unconstitutional. Talk about violating freedom of expression.

KOCH: Kilmer principal, Deborah Hernandez, told the "Washington Post" that some handshakes are gang signs. She also said that in a culturally diverse school, some families have different views of appropriate physical contact.

HENRY BEAULIEU: And my response to that was along the lines of, you know, this is an American culture and other societies really should adapt to our culture when they come here

HAL BEAULIEU: They're saying a handshake to your friend or somebody you just met is bad. It's like denying manners. It's ridiculous. It's just -- I don't even understand why they have it. KOCH: Hal, an honorable student just wants the policy to go away.

Some other points from the Washington Post article.

Officials in Arlington, Loudoun and Prince George's counties said schools in those systems prohibit inappropriate touching and disruptive behavior but don't forbid all contact. ( So not all schools have this )

"How do kids learn what's right and what's wrong?" Henri Beaulieu asked. "They are all smart kids, and they can draw lines. If they cross them, they can get in trouble. But I don't think it would happen too often." Beaulieu has written a letter to the county School Board asking it to review the rule

..Still, they say they encourage hugging at home and have taught him to shake hands when he meets someone. They agree that teenagers need to have clear limits but don't want their son to get the message that physical contact is bad.

So that's what seems to be available. What do you think? Should I try to draft something from that? Thanks 71.91.18.218 (talk) 22:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

This section is from the MSNBC article also seems relevant:

But such a strict policy doesn't seem necessary to 13-year-old Hal and his parents, who have written a letter to the county school board asking for a review of the rule. Hugging is encouraged in their home, and their son has been taught to greet someone with a handshake.

Hal said he feels he knows what's appropriate and what's not.

Click for related content Vote: Does the no-contact rule go too far? Has ‘zero tolerance’ in schools overstepped?

"I think you should be able to shake hands, high-five and maybe a quick hug," he said. "Making out goes too far."

His parents said they agree that teenagers need to have clear limits but don't want their son to be taught that physical contact is bad.

"How do kids learn what's right and what's wrong?" Henri Beaulieu asked. "They are all smart kids, and they can draw lines. If they cross them, they can get in trouble. But I don't think it would happen too often."

I broke this into a new section because that other one was getting really long. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree it does seem relevant. Perhaps that can be worked in as well 71.91.18.218 (talk) 20:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Response to a request for help

I first became aware of this issue as a result of this posting at Editor assistance/Requests on 20 November 2009. Over the following three weeks I made various contributions in an attempt to try to help sort the problem out, and then retired from the scene on 10 December. I have now received two requests on my user talk page to help again. Probably the same editor as before (but now with a different IP address) says "There is still no consensus although the addition is neutral. An admin put an edit block on the page. It seems to me your involvement before was NPOV. Can you please have a look again?" so I have looked again. I don't know whether my comments will be any help, but I will try my best.

The initial request for help suggested that another editor was unreasonably tagging the section as not being reliable, despite sources confirming what it said. What I saw when I first looked into the matter seemed to support this view. However, after a while it became evident to me that the issue was more complicated. The question was not so much whether the information given was accurate, but rather whether it gave a balanced coverage of all points of view. There then followed a period of editing by several editors, including myself, in an attempt to make sure that the coverage was neutral. Since this section was first tagged on 7 November 2009 there have been 73 edits to the article and 99 edits to this talk page. I am not going to work through every one of those 172 edits to make sure that everything I say is exactly accurate, but I believe that the following is in all essentials a fair summary.

The section was first inserted on 12 December 2007 by an editor working anonymously from an IP address. There has been much subsequent anon IP editing, and it is clear that most (though not all) of the anon edits have been from the same editor, although the IP address has changed. (It is not possible to be certain exactly how many of the IP edits came from one editor, because of the changing IP addresses and the reluctance of the editor in question to respond to "are you the same person?", but it is clear that the substantial majority are from one editor.) At some point this editor stated that he was the father of a boy at the school, who was mentioned by name in some reports of the incident, and in some versions of this section of this Wikipedia article. The section remained almost unchanged until November 2009, when the controversy over it blew up. Since then there has been a good deal of argument about what constitutes balanced coverage. Several editors have regarded the version preferred by the IP editor as one-sided, and have attempted to show another side to the controversy. On the other hand the IP editor tends to see edits which oppose his view as unbalanced and biased, and has repeatedly removed material which does so. For example, he has repeatedly removed the sentence A spokesman for Fairfax schools said that many schools have similar "keep your hands to yourself" rules. Meanwhile other editors have, on their side, removed material he has inserted which they see as pushing his point of view. There have also at times been minor side-quarrels over particular comments concerning his status as an anonymous IP editor. For example, on one occasion another editor asked whether he was the same editor as had previously edited from a different IP address, and this was described as "a personal attack". Others have suggested that this editor has a conflict of interest, and this editor has objected to the suggestion, evidently finding it offensive.

Since I have been asked to comment here, I shall first say that I do not doubt that editors on both sides of the argument are acting in good faith: on both sides there seems to me to be a sincere belief that the other side is trying to introduce a biased, unbalanced, coverage. Secondly I shall say that on both sides there has been a considerable amount of edit warring, which is not a constructive approach. Both sides should perhaps take the present enforced break as a time to step back and think carefully about what they have been doing, and what is the most constructive way forward. Thirdly I shall repeat what I said in my last comment above: "one rule in one school is scarcely notable enough to be given space in an article about the school system". I really see the whole thing as having been blown up (by both sides) completely out of proportion to its importance. I still think, as I did right at the start, that the best thing would be to delete the whole section, as its topic is not notable enough for inclusion in the article. Then perhaps all concerned can move on, and spend their time on something more useful.

However, as long as the section is there, it is worth clarifying a few following points. First of all, a person who has a close personal involvement in any issue will be likely to see things from within, rather than being able to stand back and see things from an outsider's perspective. This is what is referred to in Wikipedia as having a "conflict of interest". I myself remember a few years ago making an edit to an article which had a connection with a member of my family, and having my edit reverted with an edit summary saying in no uncertain terms that the information I had put into the article was not notable. I stopped and thought about it, and realised that was right: because I was involved I had seen something as more significant than it would seem to an outsider. I then left the article alone. I had not been deliberately making an unreasonable edit: I had sincerely seen what I was doing as perfectly alright, but my close involvement had given me an unbalanced perspective. That was in the very early part of my career as a Wikipedia editor, and I believe I am now more aware of the danger, and therefore (I hope) less likely to make such a mistake again. Nevertheless I would be very cautious about editing any article in which I had a personal involvement. Having a "conflict of interest" does not necessarily mean that I would make biased edits, but it at least raises the possibility. In the same way the father of a student who was reprimanded under the "no contact" rule, who believes that the rule is unreasonable, does have a conflict of interest, which may or may not lead to biased editing, but it raises the possibility. It is best for anyone in such a position to be aware that there is a risk of bias, however unintentional, and therefore to exercise great caution. To suggest that a person in such a position has a conflict of interest is not an attack, and the best thing is for anyone in such a position to realise and acknowledge the risk. Next, the IP editor has more than once suggested that Tedickey may have a conflict of interest. I do not know anything about Tedickey's background, but certainly a significant proportion of Tedickey's edits are in articles relating to Virginia, suggesting a local presence, and Tedickey has edited this article and talk page frequently in several sections, not only the "no contact rule" section. Once again this does not necessarily imply a bias, but it raises the possibility. It may mean no more than that he/she lives locally and therefore has a natural tendency to be interested in local issues. I think that Kraftlos has made a very good job of trying to mediate. He/she has not, in my view, taken one side or the other, but has tried hard to take a constructive approach towards both sides. Kraftlos has, in fact, made constructive criticisms of both sides. However, their comments have not always been accepted in that spirit. For example, when Kraftlos asked "are you the person I talked to last month...?" the IP editor responded with "I kind if take it as a personal attack that you even asked me...".

Next, when there are different perceptions from different editors as to what is a fair balance between differing points of view, Wikipedia tries to use consensus. I say "tries", because unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to achieve consensus, but that is at least what we aim for. In this case the majority of the disagreement has been between two editors: Tedickey on the one side and the IP editor on the other, which makes it difficult to discern a consensus. However, there have been other editors involved too, and there does seem to be a broad consensus that the IP editor is pushing a particular point of view. Personally I think Tedickey has also been trying to push an opposing point of view, but to a lesser extent.

I have no personal involvement at all. I live thousands of miles away, and did not even know that Fairfax county existed until I responded to the Request for Editor assistance which I mentioned above. Of course this does not guarantee that my assessment is "right" in any sense, but I do believe that it is a completely impartial assessment, from a far enough removed perspective to be completely uninvolved. To me the most striking thing about the whole issue is its triviality. One rule in one school, however reasonable or however unreasonable, does not deserve this much attention in an article about the whole county school system. In fact in my judgement it does not deserve any attention in this article, and not this much attention even if it were only in an article about the school. I think both the IP editor and Tedickey have given the issue far more of their time than they would have done had they been able to stand back and see the matter from an objective perspective. It seems virtually certain that the section was first written because the father of the boy involved thought the rule was unreasonable, and wanted to expose it to more public attention. It seems likely that the editor (173.79.80.24) who first tagged the section did so because they saw it as being written to plug one point of view. It also seems likely that Tedickey then defended the tagging because they also saw it in this light. However, I suggest that they may both like to sit back for a minute and ask themselves "is the issue important enough to be worth getting so worked up about it?"

If this section is to remain in the article it will help to have an uninvolved editor cut it down to a brief summary: in its present form it is quite unreasonably long, and undoubtably gives undue weight to this issue. Of course this will help only if both sides agree to accept the result of such editing, and to then leave it. Unfortunately this will be difficult to achieve, as both sides clearly have strong feelings as to what constitutes an unbiased coverage, and there is probably no possible version which both sides would be happy with. Therefore it will work only if both sides are prepared to accept that they may well finish up with a version they are not entirely happy with. My own opinion, as I have already indicated, is that better still would be for both sides to agree to let the section be deleted altogether.

If both sides can agree one one or other of the two courses I have suggested, that should resolve the matter, with both sides having agreed to leave it. If not though, then the only way forward that I can see is for the editors involved to be banned from editing this article. I would much prefer this not to happen, but edit warring on this has been going on now for more than two months, and there really has to be an end to it, preferably by agreement. It may well be that a reluctant agreement to drop the whole section will be easier to obtain than a reluctant agreement to accept a compromise version. Certainly an agreement to drop the section would be better than the unpleasantness of bans and attempts to enforce those bans.

• I had thought I had left this topic for good. I have come back in response to a request, and have spent a considerable amount of time checking through the history of the dispute, and a considerable amount more time writing this comment, and trying hard to be as fair and constructive as I can. I hope my effort has been helpful, and I apologise if not. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Blocking/banning won't work for the ip-editor, since he'll simply return as a different ip (again). Deleting the section will have the same result. (My interest in the matter is not "local", but reflecting WP:Soapbox - which you may note here/there in my edits). Have you any other ideas? Tedickey (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but I would prefer at the moment to leave the existing suggestions and see how they fare. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I had typed a very long response but it looks like it did not post. First, I was the one who asked for your imput because I wanted others opinions.

I would agree to a short balanced section. One that presents both sides is 100% okay with me. A short section should not take long for an unbiased editor to draft. If it is balanced, even if it is leaning towards tedickys side I will be okay with it. I just want it to have something in it about why a person may not agree with the issue - the parents, the doctor, whoever. The way it was it did not have anything in it other than the fact that there was an issue and why the FCPS felt they needed it. Either that or no reason/opinion at all.

As per the soapbox comment after a quick review; I believe it was the parent that accused you of using it as a soapbox after JamesWatson mentioned it. I am not getting into who said what, I don't care.

Also, I am not the only one who feels the article is unbalanced. "I have noticed that the article only really covers the justification by the school district and doesn't really speak of any other view. This is a legitimate POV concern and needs to be addressed. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 07:18, 18 January 2010 (UTC)"

As I said, I am willing to work this out. An edit block is useless. Tedicky can just not log in, etc. Then change the edit. How about the suggestion below, the cites will support the statement.

 Editors suggest constructive improvements/changes  If you feel they are needed.

"Kilmer Middle School, a school in the FCPS system, has a strict rule/policy of "no physical contact", meaning that contact such as high fives or hugs between friends are not allowed. "

Playing the devils advocate here: High fives and hugs is included because it defines what no physical contact is.- and is sourced. Strict, is in there because that is what the policy is, as souces/cites indicate.

If as I suspect Tedicky is going to have an issue with "hugs and high fives" then you can cut it down to just the fact of : "Kilmer Middle School, a school in the FCPS system, has a strict rule/policy of "no physical contact" If it is then argued that this only pertains to Kilmer, then I would cite that '..other schools in the system have a similar policy.

As for deleting the section completely, I can not agree to that because if I was a parent moving there that is legitimate information I would want to know about the school system. Why that school and not others? Why do they have that rule? Do others? I would say let me look at these sources, etc. Those are some questions I would ask them. Maybe I would move to a different area and avoid that school, etc. Encyclopedias inform. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 21:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. We have had two responses to my suggestions. Tedickey thinks that the IP editor would not accept a block or ban, but would simply return under a new IP address, and the IP edtior thinks that Tedickey would do the same. So we have a lack of trust on both sides, unfortunately. The option of a third editor producing a cut down version has been accepted by the IP editor, and Tedickey's only objection to it is that the IP editor would not abide by such an agreement. I think we should give this solution a chance. I suggest the following:

1. If any uninvolved editor is willing to write a brief suggested compromise version, they may do so here, so we can consider it. I suggest that a suitable maximum length is about the length of the first two paragraphs in the present version, which is 149 words: any more than that would be giving grossly excessive weight to a minor point. I would suggest even less.
2. In case the above suggestion does not produce a usable (or any) solution, anyone who is not willing to do the above, or who does not qualify as an "uninvolved editor", but who is willing to try to help, may write here a few sentences covering essential points which they feel must be included. I will then be willing to look at the contributions, and see if I can combine them into a compromise version. In this case, since we would be likely to have contributions from two or more editors to combine, the maximum length for each contribution should be about half my suggested maximum, i.e. about 75 words.
3. If neither of the above suggestions has resolved the problem in a reasonable time then we have to accept that the quarrel has gone on long enough, and an end may have to be made to it by more Gordian methods. As far as I am aware the only opposition to removing the section altogether has come from the IP editor. Does anyone else wish to either support or oppose this solution if neither of the above two suggestions resolves the issue?

JamesBWatson (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Hopefully we will get an NPOV editor to come in and do something. If not I will make my suggestions to you. The third option might as well not exist, because I do not see how if it comes down to it the second can not work. I appreciate your time. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That would have to be an established editor who is demonstrably independent of either of those having a dispute, e.g., having been editing for several months, logged in and not editing topics that the ip-editor has been modifying Tedickey (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds excellent to me, of course whats good for the goose.. so the editor needs to not be editing any articles that you have edited or are associated with you as well. That would be easily proven with having been logged on, etc. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That would be a lot harder. You may not find one of those. Tedickey (talk) 00:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I looked, you have not done that much editing. I am sure someone will come up with someone that meets the criterion, if not we go to step 2. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 03:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I see that you've approached someone who's done almost as many edits as I have (a step in the right direction) Tedickey (talk) 09:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I was approached by the IP and have now read through the section and these comments. I will try to work up a brief compromise section in the next day or two. I will post what I come up with here for discussion. Meanwhile, if anyone else wants to have a go at it, it's fine with me. LadyofShalott 16:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

She seems from her posts like she would be a good choice to balance an article. I don't know her at all. Thank you for your time and doing this for us. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

There is indeed opposition to deleting it. MaxHarmony (talk) 00:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for my absence. It looks like JamesBWatson has made some good suggestions. Has a compromise version been written? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)

Apparently not. By the way, the ip-editor's corresponding contribution to the Joyce Kilmer Middle School topic was removed by User:Interchange88, saying that it was no longer an issue Tedickey (talk) 13:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I let it slip. However, I did not realize that there was an article for the middle school itself. If this belongs anywhere at all, it is in that article rather than this one. In light of your comment, Tedickey, I suggest this just be removed from this article. LadyofShalott 03:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I already posted here but its gone. So I will restate. You all tend to think it is a non issue. Of course it made worldwide news...nevermind that.

It is a system wide problem. The article states other schools have similar rules. It is an issue that is mounting across the country.

However, assuming you are all American and not Muslim, I say Muslim because that is why they had the rule in the school, to appease them, and you all think it is fine that girls were not allowed to hug girls in Junior High School, that boys were not allowed to shake hands. If when your daughter or grandchild gets suspended because they hugged a friend... If you think that those issues are so unimportant that they should be be erased from history, go ahead. The purpose was achieved through the media. The rule is no longer.. but it was..and will be again if people forget their history.

The three or four of you, hardly make a consensus. You are the majority, but the words of the few outweigh the silence of the many. These issues will appear in the news again and history will repeat itself and you can take solace in the fact that you helped perpetuate these types of "rules".

This failure to accurately represent history is the exact reason students can not cite wiki in research papers. It is why wiki is good for question like " How tall is Miley Cirus". This is why Jon Stewart and others have a field day with Wiki.

And Tedicky, you are so transparent. Of course I knew it was you when the article was changed at the Kilmer article. I was just waiting to see how long it would take you to chime in.

Having said that. I want each of you to state here that the article should be removed - for the "consensus". I wash my hands of this. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 20:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC) er

I'm reasonably sure that the admins involved can verify that Interchange88 is a distinct person from myself. Tedickey (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesnt matter. I had a quick look at his page. He is a monarchist? Enough said. Ted, just state you want the section deleted and lets wait for the other ones to agree. I still stand by what I said. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 22:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

At least two of the people who have taken part in this discussion have come here as requests for outside mediation, namely myself and LadyofShalott. When I came here I had never heard of Fairfax county, let alone the controversy over the "no contact" rule. I believe I am impartial, and it seems to me that LadyofShalott is impartial too; both of us think that this section does not belong in this article. In addition, as far as I am aware nobody else except the IP editor has indicated any significant degree of belief that it should remain. I had therefore come to the conclusion that the time had come to act on consensus and remove the section altogether when, returning here, I saw that the IP editor too had decided to (reluctantly) accept removal. It would have been more satisfactory if we could have finished in a happier frame of mind: is most unfortunate that he still feels such resentment against those who disagree with him, and has such a belief in lack of good faith. However, consensus seems to me to support removing the section, so I shall do so. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

seems to.... lets get the votes. Isn't that the proper way? Don't speak for others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.18.218 (talk) 18:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it should be deleted entirely. I'd be happy to work out a condensed version of the section as per the suggestions by JamesBWatson. KPalicz (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, none of the WP:Soapbox items belong. This one happens to have a persistent advocate Tedickey (talk) 10:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? KPalicz (talk) 14:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

"persistent" should be obvious... Tedickey (talk) 21:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

No contact rule controversy (neutral re-write attempt)

In June 2007, Kilmer Middle School, a school in the FCPS system, attracted national controversy after a 13-year-old student was reprimanded for putting his arm round his girlfriend during a break. The school had a strict policy of "no physical contact", meaning that contact such as high fives or hugs between friends are not allowed. While many school districts ban what they deem to be inappropriate public displays of affection, Kilmer's no physical contact rule is uniquely strict. Despite opposition from some parents and students, and coverage on Fox News, CNN, Time Magazine and the Washington Post, the school system and the principal of the school, Deborah Hernandez, stand behind the rule and have refused to rescind it. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by KPalicz (talk • contribs) 22:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

References

Sounds good to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.18.218 (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Not really - if it's no longer in effect then the focus and tenses used are inaccurate. Not an improvement. Tedickey (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It is also not by any means a "neutral" rewrite. It is entirely one-sided. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

How is it one-sided? People here seem to believe this isn't a significant issue, so spending multiple paragraphs using quotes and arguments from each side would seem to inflate the importance of what happened. This is just a very simple and very direct description of what happened. It says who opposes the policy and who supports it. It doesn't go into detail about why each side supports or opposes it, it just focuses on the facts of the case which are adequately sourced. I changed "has" to "had" but it'd be nice if someone presented a source saying that the policy was rescinded, because I didn't see that. If I see that I can rewrite the last sentence. Otherwise, if you have an issue with the above paragraph, please be more specific as to your complaints. I don't at all see them as justified. KPalicz (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Now I would like to hear from the others who have objected. Please offer a constructive re-write. Also, I would add that one editor has stated something along the lines that I have refused to accept any re-writes... Have there been any besides mine and Kpalicz? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.67.154 (talk) 20:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I meant leaving it in. It is easy to go from has to had. Also, have you verified the school system no longer has the rule? Also, the entire point of having the article is to cover the fact they had the policy. A policy negatively viewed by the majority of people, at least enough to garner worldwide news coverage. In the real world we don't pretended things never existed just because there has been a change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.18.218 (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Since there is an article for the school itself, I think any discussion of this belongs in that article, not this one. LadyofShalott 02:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Does the district have this policy or is this policy just at Kilmer Middle School? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 03:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

According to the edits by Interchange88, the principal has left and the policy is no longer in effect. (I found no useful sources pro/con) Tedickey (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Regardless if they have it or not, they had it- it doesn't change history. It belongs in the system because it a school in the system and the system defended the policy 71.91.18.218 (talk) 21:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• It belongs in the article because it is a school... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.18.218 (talk) 00:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

As I explained above, I came here in response to requests for assistance. I, and others, have made numerous attempts to give assistance to the person who made those requests, including attempts to edit the article to resolve the dispute, discussion at far greater length than this minor topic warrants, and so on. The person who made the requests has, however, never been prepared to accept consensus. He has repeatedly made claims to be willing to do so, or to accept a compromise, but has shown no willingness to actually do so. He has persistently reverted edits by others. There is a clear consensus against the opinion of this single purpose editor. (Incidentally, in answer to that editor's comment, we do not do things on Wikipedia by voting, but even if we did so it would be abundantly clear which way the vote would go.) The time has come, I think, to put an end to this disruption. The editor who is the cause of the problem has been edit-warring against consensus for months, and that alone would action to stop the disruption. However, there is also the additional fact that the editor was blocked indefinitely, and has been editing in defiance of that block. I had not previously raised this issue, as I still thought that it would be more constructive to try to reach a solution which the IP editor would accept. However, for months numerous editors have tried to achieve a consensus based solution (both here and elsewhere, such as at Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests and at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard) and nothing has come of it, with the IP editor stubbornly refusing to consider anyone else's opinion, or to follow consensus, re-adding his own opinion and repeatedly removing material expressing any other view. I have, unfortunately, been driven to decide that the time has come to put an end to this disruption by whatever means are necessary, and as a first step I am initiating a sock puppet investigation. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

it is not relevant cause the ban was for a week, so much for the socks. Also, another editor agreed that the section should stay. I have not reverted but one time, and a consensus has not been reached since the new editor worked out an article, you all are just pretending that did not happen. 71.91.18.218 (talk) 00:36, 25 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.18.218 (talk)

Certainly the notice on User talk:68.119.67.94 says that it is an indefinite block. I cannot find anywhere where it is stated to be for a week. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Assuming that "I have not reverted but one time" means "I have reverted only once", then I suggest looking at [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] where the editor reverted. For simplicity I have given only cases where the reversion was exactly to a previous version, not cases where an edit was substantially reverted but with some changes, nor cases where an edit was reverted exactly, but intervening edits were left in place. I have searched through only part of the edit history, so that there may well be more. As for "another editor agreed that the section should stay", yes, but failed to gain consensus; in fact failed to gain any support at all except from 71.91.18.218. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey Watson, All the statements about the future, and history, and all that don't mean a thing to you do they? Pretending that these things never happened don't mean a thing to you, that is clear from your statements. You can't just erase history. In fact since I pointed out that is what would happen most of the objectors have become silent. I agreed with the re-write and so did another, so ya know, the way I see you guys aren't ahead, although you like to think you are.

Also, The Admin who did the block will know it was not a perm block. The block was for legal threats, not for any sort of edit war. I am sure there is a way to get numerous impartial editors to chime in. I just don't know how to do it. Do you and you a)ren't? 71.91.18.218 (talk) 19:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Now that I understand how this works-- I do not have to defend the article from the way it was originally was- or how it is now as it was an attempt to "fix" and issue someone else had. In fact it should be reverted back as there was never a consensus to change it. 68.119.67.154 (talk) 23:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe my comments above count, in so much as I don't believe this topic merits discussion in Wikipedia at all. RossPatterson (talk) 00:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think for an issue to garner world wide coverage , CNN,Fox, The Guardian, The Washington Post, Yahoo News, MSNBC, PBS, newspapers in Australia, India, etc. I would think that objectively you would realize your opinion is wrong. 68.119.67.154 (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Consensus was NOT established. 3-2 (plus other anon ip's) is not a consensus. I re-wrote the article and shortened it.

The anon-ips appear to be the same person. That's of "sock-puppet" Tedickey (talk) 09:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

it appears a good faith effort. There was not a consensus. Stating that there was does not make it so. Tedickey, I don't believe you have done anything to contribute in creating a NPOV - except criticize. Which is very telling since you were the one who said it was not NPOV as it was first written/ Well, first you said it was not cited well; Then you brought up NPOV. What is your current objection? 68.119.67.154 (talk) 21:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreement was apparently reached on this issue. It seems it has been deleted. I added it back after reading about some students committing suicide. There seems to be a pattern and practice at FCPS of issues with children that seem out of the norm. I see no reason to not have the section in, that it appears was deleted without a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.1.204 (talk) 00:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

That still needs reliable sources which demonstrate that the content is (a) relevant and (b) notable TEDickey (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems from reading the above that there were quite a few sources that dont seem to work anymore??? Despite opposition from some parents and students, and coverage on Fox News, CNN, Time Magazine and the Washington Post, the school system and the principal of the school, Deborah Hernandez, stand behind the rule and have refused to rescind it. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KPalicz (talk • contribs) 22:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC) 172.0.1.204 (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I added in the past, and sourced Time magazine. That should certainly be relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.1.204 (talk) 01:43, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Your assertion that there is a relationship between suicide and this issue is unsourced (which flavor - WP:SOAPBOX for instance - is uncertain at this point). For the rest, you might want to spend the time reviewing the change history of the topic rather than making accusations against random editors (see WP:AGF) TEDickey (talk) 09:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC

Tedickey are trying to obfuscate the issue? I studied the "change history" and quoted where it was decided to leave the section in this 'talk'. And clearly there is a connection between issues as they relate to policies adopted by the FCPS Board that relate to how students are treated and the consequences of how they were treated and the outcomes.

What is you connection to Northern Va as you seem to edit many articles from that area. Are you sure you have a NPOV. I think it is proper for you to step back from this issue.

Third opinion by Martin Hogbin

Is this the section for which a third opinion is requested? What exactly is the dispute? Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC) It looks to me as though this dispute well past the third opinion stage. Several editors are already involved. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I have deleted the disputed section. As editors have said above, it is about one specific school, which its own article, and it was several years ago. There seems to me to be a clear consensus against this section. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

the section was LEFT in. The consensus was to leave it. But at some point someone removed it. The section was in there. It was removed without anyone noticing. Again, the consensus was to leave it in, and it was...until someone did not notice. Why leave the section about the kids killing themselves then? That was at a particular school also??? follow me, it's about the policy they allow to be put in place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.1.204 (talk) 00:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

When it says the Consensus was not established, tedickey is talking about a consensus to leave it there. he felt because a couple of the "voters' were anon they did not count. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.1.204 (talk) 00:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Partial page protection

My edit, which clearly has a consensus of registered editors, has been reverted by an IP. I am going to ask for partial page protection here so that only registered users can edit.

Sorry people, I give up. We now have full protection again. I will leave you to it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:39, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Respectfully did you read what I said? First of all there was a consensus to LEAVE IT AS IT WAS, not change it to have the section removed. Again, the consensus was to leave the section in there. And it was left in there. It was LATER removed without consensus. Second, another question is why would you want it removed? Logically, if another issue, such as SUICIDES, relates to a school rule in the FCPS and is left on the page, clearly a rule at another school which prohibits Freedom of Expression, the 1st Amendment - in case you are not from America, that does not allow high five or hugs or handshakes, which is of course freedom of expression, needs to be left in. There is a pattern and practice of a callous disregard for how these children are being treated in the fcps system. When kids can't hug, or weren't allowed to hug or shake hands, then the system gets a "zero tolerance" policy that leads to suicides of TWO students...I think we can all agree something is wrong. Do you see the connection? Relevant to the people( the board) who made the decisions. And fyi, students do have rights. And THAT is why a Goolge search indicates the issue was covered world wide. And for your further reading; School speech

In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969),[123] the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not "materially and substantially" interrupt school activities.[124] Justice Abe Fortas wrote, [S]chools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students ... are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.[125] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.1.204 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

---

The editors who want the section removed, removed it 2 years after they argued and LOST to have it removed before. The reason was cited as one incident 6 years ago. History needs to be remembered for a reason.

(cur | prev) 10:42, 5 June 2013‎ JamesBWatson (talk | contribs)‎ . . (26,775 bytes) (-1,548)‎ . . (One incident in one of the district's schools, six years ago: this is undue weight.)

(cur | prev) 00:15, 31 May 2013‎ Tedickey (talk | contribs)‎ . . (28,323 bytes) (-33)‎ . . (revert - already in list)

editor's enhancement of source

The indicated statement does not appear in the given source. The source provided would make a somewhat useful supplementary source for the following sentence. The sentence tagged can be removed, since there is no corresponding WP:RS. TEDickey (talk) 20:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Added page for reference. As for RS, the author got his PhD for it, which qualifies him as an expert. Paradoctor (talk) 21:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I read that, before commenting, and your reply is nonresponsive. By the way, to be classified as an "expert", it's not enough to write something. Rather, people have to take notice of it (this author appears to be largely ignored - see Google scholar for instance). TEDickey (talk) 21:32, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The text supporting the statement is cited and quoted. If you disagree with that, you'll have to explain what you mean, it is not obvious.

"take notice": You may be confusing reliability with notability here. Paradoctor (talk) 21:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The source says "In an effort to avoid integration black students were sent outside of Fairfax County to Manassas and Washington." Your "quote" changes the wording (and meaning), but substituting the word "refused" (essentially, the difference between evasion and confrontation). There's nothing reliable about that. (The next source also is freely interpreted with its introduction of "designated", having no clear parallel in the cited document - per the source there were two school systems, not specific schools set aside, which is what the term "designated" means). TEDickey (talk) 23:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

""quote"" Please do make an effort to find a reasonable interpretation of my words. The quote is in the reference, the paraphrase is in the article body, and you have been around long enough to know the difference.

"substituting" The refusal is implicit in the decision to send the pupils out of the county. As you should be aware, articles should paraphrase and summarize. OTOH, if that is what it takes, I'm ok with building this aspect of the article with quotations. After all, we're talking about two sentences here.

"next source" This section is about my edit, not someone else's. Let's stay on focus, ok? Paradoctor (talk) 01:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to lower the level down to "implicit", there's no point in carrying on a discussion, since it's no longer relevant to the issue which I tagged. bye. 00:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll take that as stating that this discussion is resolved. Paradoctor (talk) 02:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Breaking up History Section

I've been adding material to the History section of this article and it's getting very long. I'm thinking about breaking it up into smaller sections, and two ways immediately spring to mind: either breaking it up by decade (1960s, 1970s, 1980s, etc.) or by Superintendent (Funderburk, Davis, Deck, Burkholder, Spillane, etc.). It's also likely that it'll eventually need to be its own article with an inline redirect.--Chuckhoffmann (talk) 12:28, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

FCPS is cracking down on vandalism

Just so you all know, FCPS is cracking down on vandalism. Vandalism investigations are being made.

Yours,

Johannon (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

History section

Just as a reminder, the history section has become original research by picking and choosing from primary sources. Knowledgeable secondary sources are preferred versus editor's original composition TEDickey (talk) 18:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC)