Talk:Erivan Governorate

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Brokgauz and Efron Encyclopedia

Parishan at first add the right links or make a quotation! As the links are "dead" and they nothing can prove... Also pls do not delete existing links to the same encyclopedia (you see the linked article marks different numbers and quotations)! PS- for your info: the offline version consists of tens of big volumes and printed more than 100 years ago. We need a quotation, which marks the volume, article's name, page, etc, not the simple name of encyclopedia with dead links. Andranikpasha 19:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If the link goes dead, it does not mean that it should be deleted. Brokhaus is a printed source and you can look it up in a library. But here are new links for you: Erivan and Erivan Governorate Grandmaster 04:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"If the link goes dead, it does not mean that it should be deleted." -And what we must do? keep it for the next generations?:) I didnt even delete but change them with working ones. Thanks for the links: sorry, I cant find there anything about majorities, only that in Erivan Guberny (without Erivan) Azerbaijani tartars were 49% of inhabitants. Also this quotation: "Население Э. губернии (429689 мужчин, 375068 женщин, по переписи 1897 г.) слагается из армян (56 %), адербейджанских татар (37,5 %), курдов (5,5 %) и русских (0,6 %); остальные 0,4 % приходятся на айсоров, греков, грузин, евреев и цыган. 55 % армяно-григориан, 0,9 % армян-католиков, 41 % мусульман (36,7 % шиитов, 4,3 % суннитов), 1,7 % езидов (часть курдов), 0,5 % православных, 0,4 % сектантов и т. п. Армяне живут преимущественно в северо-западной части губернии, татары — в юго-восточной, курды — в юго-западной. Большинство населения живет оседло; часть татар и в особенности курдов ведет полукочевой образ жизни. Главные занятия населения — земледелие и скотоводство." Nothing about Sharur-Daralagyoz, Nakhichevan majorities etc. so its again unsourced! Andranikpasha 14:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Brokgauz has articles about Nakhichevan and Sharur. And Azerbaijanis prevailed in number in the town and uyezd of Erivan. Grandmaster 04:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

See: Население Э. (17345 мужчин и 11688 женщин) слагается из русских — 2 %, армян — 48 % и адербейджанских татар — 49 %; остальные — грузины, евреи и проч.

Население Э. уезда (69588 мужчин и 57484 женщины), группирующееся в 16 сельских обществах и 205 селениях, состоит (без города Эривани) из 53,5 % адербейджанских татар, 37 % армян, 8 % курдов, 1 % айсоров и около 0,5 % русских. Около 62 % мусульман (52,5 % шииты), 37 % армяно-григориан и около 1 % православных. --Grandmaster 04:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What's up with sneaky removal of WP Azerbaijan tag, Aivazovsky? Why no explanation at talk? Grandmaster (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jayvdb, I know you have a talent of learning new languages on a moments notice, so here is French source to satisfy your needs. VartanM (talk) 00:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Gubernias del Caucaso - Gubernia de Erevan - Imperio Ruso.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:18, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

1917 Caucasus Calendar

LouisAragon Why does the note you added for "Other Asian Nationalities Shia Muslims" include Kurds and remove the link for Azerbaijanis? In fact, the vast majority of "Other Asian Nationalities Shia Muslims" refers to Azerbaijanis/Tatars, and Kurds (including Muslims and Yezidis) are specifically named in a separate column so it doesn't make sense to state that Kurds are included in the Azerbaijanis column. Nunuxxx (talk) 09:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nunuxxx: Thanks for letting me know; I didn't notice the separate Kurdish tree. Its fixed now. - LouisAragon (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nunuxxx: PS: I'm well aware that Tatars i.e. Azerbaijanis constituted the vast majority of Muslims in these areas of the Russian Empire at the time. However, there were indeed a few minor Muslim minorities that were covered by the label "Shia" and "Sunni" (f.e. Persians, Talysh, Osmanli Turks, etc.). A note should be added explaining that they are covered by the label as well. For some reason my pc doesn't let me operate the source properly. Could you perhaps add such a note instead? - LouisAragon (talk) 12:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: No worries, I've added notes to indicate Iranian Shias and Anatolian Turkish Sunnis. Nunuxxx (talk) 12:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Common name

Variants: Erevan (839), Erivan (2,329), Irevan (210), Yerevan (3,379)

Searches:

Google Ngram Search

–All variants compared

Google Scholar Search

–"Erevan Governorate": 3 results

–"Erevan Gubernia": 5 results

–"Erevan Guberniia": 23 results

–"Erevan Guberniya": 7 results

–"Erevan Province": 58 results

–"Erivan Governorate": 32 results

–"Erivan Gubernia": 16 results

–"Erivan Guberniia": 6 results

–"Erivan Guberniya": 8 results

–"Erivan Province": 137 results

–"Irevan Governorate": 5 results

–"Irevan Gubernia": 7 results

–"Irevan Guberniia": 0 results

–"Irevan Guberniya": 2 results

–"Irevan Province": 29 results

–"Yerevan Governorate": 24 results

–"Yerevan Gubernia": 18 results

–"Yerevan Guberniia": 5 results

–"Yerevan Guberniya": 10 results

–"Yerevan Province": 125 results

Google Advanced Book Search, per WP:SET (hide “Tools” to see totals):

–"Erevan Governorate": 0 results

–"Erevan Gubernia": 44 results

–"Erevan Guberniia": 125 results

–"Erevan Guberniya": 45 results

–"Erevan Province": 529 results

–"Erivan Governorate": 664 results

–"Erivan Gubernia": 88 results

–"Erivan Guberniia": 86 results

–"Erivan Guberniya": 82 results

–"Erivan Province": 1,210 results

–"Irevan Governorate": 4 results

–"Irevan Gubernia": 1 results

–"Irevan Guberniia": 0 results

–"Irevan Guberniya": 0 results

–"Irevan Province": 162 results

–"Yerevan Governorate": 217 results

–"Yerevan Gubernia": 72 results

–"Yerevan Guberniia": 276 results

–"Yerevan Guberniya": 82 results

–"Yerevan Province": 2,550 results

Therefore, Yerevan, in the context of this governorate, is 45% more commonly appearing in English academia than the current Erivan. – Olympian ^loquere 02:47, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 13 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 11:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Erivan Governorate → Yerevan Governorate – Per WP:COMMONNAME expounded here Olympian ^loquere 02:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Would you expound further? Here are the above results sorted by number of results:

Google Scholar Search

1. "Erivan Province": 137 results
2. "Yerevan Province": 125 results
3. "Erevan Province": 58 results
4. "Erivan Governorate": 32 results
5. "Irevan Province": 29 results
6. "Yerevan Governorate": 24 results *
7. "Erevan Guberniia": 23 results
8. "Yerevan Gubernia": 18 results
9. "Erivan Gubernia": 16 results
10. "Yerevan Guberniya": 10 results
11. "Erivan Guberniya": 8 results
12. "Erevan Guberniya": 7 results
13. "Irevan Gubernia": 7 results
14. "Erivan Guberniia": 6 results
15. "Erevan Gubernia": 5 results
16. "Irevan Governorate": 5 results
17. "Yerevan Guberniia": 5 results
18. "Erevan Governorate": 3 results
19. "Irevan Guberniya": 2 results
20. "Irevan Guberniia": 0 results

Google Advanced Book Search

1. "Yerevan Province": 2,550 results
2. "Erivan Province": 1,210 results
3. "Erivan Governorate": 664 results
4. "Erevan Province": 529 results
5. "Yerevan Guberniia": 276 results
6. "Yerevan Governorate": 217 results *
7. "Irevan Province": 162 results
8. "Erevan Guberniia": 125 results
9. "Erivan Gubernia": 88 results
10. "Erivan Guberniia": 86 results
11. "Erivan Guberniya": 82 results
12. "Yerevan Guberniya": 82 results
13. "Yerevan Gubernia": 72 results
14. "Erevan Guberniya": 45 results
15. "Erevan Gubernia": 44 results
16. "Irevan Governorate": 4 results
17. "Irevan Gubernia": 1 results
18. "Erevan Governorate": 0 results
19. "Irevan Guberniia": 0 results
20. "Irevan Guberniya": 0 results

 —Michael Z. 21:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 06:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• Comment, switching to Oppose. Tempted to support, but holding back because I am not sure what will become of the widespread references to "Erivan" throughout wiki, e.g. Erivan uezd, Georgia-Imeretia Governorate, Caucasus Viceroyalty (1801–1917), etc. Is there going to be an across-the-board replacement of "Erivan" with "Yerevan", wherever it appears? I'd prefer a more comprehensive discussion about that, as "Erivan" is a common (if archaic) English term during this time (e.g. 1911 Britannica). And will have implications for the spelling of other historical governorates, e.g. Tiflis Governorate (vs. Tblisi). Walrasiad (talk) 23:42, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Generally, I'd expect the equivalent uezd to gain the same name, as was the case for the recent Elizavetpol Governorate move which also moved the Elizavetpol uezd for consistency. As for implications of spelling of other governorates, I'd expect those would be decided on an individual basis rather than systematically, as is the case for this or Kutaisi Governorate. – Olympian ^loquere 06:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I switched my vote to oppose. I'm coming across too many RS references to "Erivan Province" or "Erivan Governorate" in historical context. Even those that use the modern name of Yerevan city still point out it was part of "Erivan Governorate" during the Russian Empire. Clearly it seems the historical English spelling is preferred when dealing with the historical provincial entities. And given the unsatisfactory answer above about other historical Russian imperial provinces, I see only inconsistencies (and acrimony) brewing in arbitrarily changing just one or two to modern spellings. Walrasiad (talk) 08:51, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. References to Yerevan are revisionist. It was not referred to by that name in English-language sources at the time. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Necrothesp Be that as it may, it's still the prevailing term to refer to the province, and on Wikipedia, the common name trumps all other conventions when the article title is in question. – Olympian ^loquere 00:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  And how many of the sources you list above are reliable, non-partisan English-language sources? Google Scholar results by themselves mean nothing. For instance, you will find that many modern authors (especially Turkish and Muslim authors) use Istanbul to refer to Constantinople even before it was actually called Istanbul and when it was universally known in the west as Constantinople. But we don't because that would be revisionist. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not sure why you're mixing WP:OTHERSTUFF into this discussion; Constantinople and Istanbul don't precisely refer to the same city, so to speak (the former was the comparatively tiny Roman city whilst the other is a much larger, Turkish, city of 15 million), and even if they did, the most common term would be preferred – I'm not really sure what you're implying regarding "Turkish and and Muslim authors". From my assessment, I don't believe that most of the sources using "Yerevan" in this instance aren't reliable. In fact, most of Western and Armenian sources prefer "Yerevan", whilst a minority of Western sources use "Erivan", and seemingly only Azerbaijani sources use "Irevan", and as you may know, only the latter country is widely regarded as unreliable due to its falsification of history. – Olympian ^loquere 05:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Since this article is about a governorate of the Russian Empire, the official Russian-language name of the time should be used. The official name was Эриванская губернія (Erivanskaya guberniya, "Erivan Governorate"), as one can see on this map made in the Russian Empire in 1903 (in all caps: ЭРИВАНСКАЯ ГУБЕРНІЯ). In Soviet times, the Russian-language spelling of its capital was changed from Эривань (Erivan) to Ереван (Yerevan), so the maps changed accordingly. And now, of course, Armenia is an independent country, and the Russian-language spelling does not matter at all. But the article is about an administrative entity of the Russian Empire. — UnladenSwallow (talk) 17:26, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

  @UnladenSwallow As explained to Necrothesp, this rationale is defeated by the fact that Wikipedia prefers the common name rather than what was official at the time, and the search results expounded above show "Yerevan" as a clear winner. – Olympian ^loquere 03:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Languages

[1] - Samiollah1357, reason? Smpad (talk) 14:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

There’s a long-standing (10+ years) consensus in these articles to include endonymic translations in the lead. If you believe that they should be removed, I would recommend starting an RfC in WikiProject Russia to systematically change them all. Samiollah1357 (talk) 23:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)