Talk:Erddig

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@A.D.Hope, it is not in Marchwiel (village) but in the rural parts of the community. It is closer to Wrexham itself. Plus why are you spelling it Erdigg?

If you're re-writing it all, happy to help as visiting it is my local pasttime. Have considered splitting the article on Erddig Park, but not at this stage. DankJae 22:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Name and location

Hi @DankJae, would you mind undoing your changes to the name and terminology of the house and estate, please? It's in Marchwiel, not Wrexham, and 'Erddig Park' is a name for the house as shown on OS maps. Those maps also show the 'Erthig' Anglicisation. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is funny. At least we're committed to talking it out! A.D.Hope (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, I live here, it is not usually described as in Marchwiel. It is in the community of Marchwiel, but closer to Wrexham than the village of Marchwiel. Most people (and readers) know Marchwiel as a village not the surrounding community. "Erddig Park" is a name of the estate and adjacent parkland. It literally has "Park". "Erddig Hall" is also used for the house itself. [1] [2] [3] [4] Both are called "Erddig" hence the confusion, the estate named after the house.

Erdigg is a mispelling. "Erthig" is an archaic spelling which isn't in modern use, so shouldn't be in the lead. DankJae 22:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, also we shouldn't over use maps as a source. Especially ones from the 1930s. DankJae 22:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

We should use maps as a resource when it comes to things like names. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

If anything, only as a source, not the source. If it is not commonly used elsewhere, then why promote a possible artefact/error in OS Maps? I have never seen that spelling unless in historical (very historical) sources, when anglicisations were everywhere. DankJae 22:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Why the assumption that a name given on an OS map is an artefact or error, though? I know the OS isn't infallible, but surely the onus is to prove that it's incorrect rather than the reverse? A.D.Hope (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Well the map uses both names for some odd reason. Most sources use one or the other. Nonetheless, the name the Trust itself uses should take priority. DankJae 23:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The name the Trust uses is the common name and should therefore be the article title and the name used in the body, but the other names do need to be mentioned. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Personally I do agree that Erdigg is on the outskirts of Wrexham, but if it's in Marchwiel community there's not much we can do – we can't exactly cite local opinion.

"Erdigg Park" is shown as the name of the park and the house on OS maps. Gothic lettering on OS maps relates to non-Roman historic sites, in this case the house. It's not that unusual to see houses called "Park", e.g. Attingham Park.

"Erthig" doesn't seem to be entirely archaic, as it's on current OS maps. When it comes to historic sites it's also helpful to give common historic names early, as they often show up in documents about the place. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Say "near Wrexham" then? Why do we have to be "administratively" correct, listing the exact community it falls under? Happy to find sources, this has been on my to-do list for a long time.

OS Maps contains many artefacts of older versions of the map. Once again, we shouldn't solely rely on maps for names, but sources overall.

"Attingham" is a contraction of the name of the nearby village, so Park is a natural disambiguator. Plus the National Trust actually uses it, but it uses "Erddig" here.

Erthig is a respelling of the Welsh pronunciation (dd sounding like "th"), aside maps do any modern sources use that spelling? If not, nor should we, even if an odd map (prone to errors) does.

Btw, going through the Cadw database, they notably have many spelling mistakes. DankJae 22:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The lead as I wrote it included both Marchwiel and Wrexham, which seemed like a sensible way to do it given Wrexham is fairly well-known and very close but the estate isn't actually within its boundaries.

I don't really get this aversion to using OS maps as sources. They're reliable, aren't they? I'm also not sure why disambiguation is relevant, as 'Erddig Park' doesn't redirect here and so wasn't in bold in the lead.

An Anglicisation doesn't need to be in current use to be mentioned in the lead, just prominent enough to mention – see Conwy. In this case the Anglicisation is used in many old documents about the estate, including in possibly the most famous work associated with it, The Royal Tribes of Wales, whose author identified himself as 'Philip Yorke, Esq. of Erthig'. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Once again "Erthig" is a very old name, that source is from the 1880s. Conway was only ditched in the 1970s, and remains because of how prevalent it is still used outside Conwy. "Erthig" is best for the body. DankJae 23:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

'Erthig' is prominent in historic accounts of the house and estate, so the reader should be made aware of it the lead. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The names of the place shouldn't dominate the lead, unless it is notable for it or commonly known by it today. We don't list every historic spelling of a place unless it is crucial to the subject. It isn't here. Do modern sources continue to use it or emphasise it?

We don't say "Caernarfon, historically spelled "Carnarvon" and "Caernarvon". Or "Dolgellau, historically spelled as Dolkelew, Dolgethleu, Dolguelli, Dolgelly, Dolgelley, Dôlgelly, Dolgelly or Dolgelli, is a "

Would tolerate "Erdigg" as it seems to be a common mispelling to the point it probably is an alternative name now. DankJae 23:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The names of the place didn't dominate the lead as I wrote it, I don't think. Modern sources use the modern name, 'Erddig'.

I'm off to bed as it's late, but I'm sure we'll sort this out tomorrow or over the weekend, Jae :)

A.D.Hope (talk) 23:28, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation was mentioned because you (based on the map) stated the house was referred to as "Erddig Park" a bit WP:SYNTH as the label was also on the gardens and the surrounding estate not exactly on the hall. Once again why I prefer not to use maps as a source, it is a bit WP:SYNTH. DankJae 23:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The gothic label on the contemporary OS map refers to the house, and the serif one to the park. On the 1930s map I'm fairly sure the two 'Erddig Park' labels refer to the house and park respectively. It's a bit ironic that the older map uses 'Erddig' and the contemporary one 'Erthig', but there you go. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Coming back to this, because the house is in Marchwiel and has links to the village itself (several Yorkes are buried in the church), my preference would be to mention this in the lead sentence: 'Erddig is a country house and estate in the community of Marchwiel, approximately 2 miles (3.2 km) south of Wrexham, Wales.'

I think that the alternative and older names for the estate will become apparent as the article is expanded. They may be worth mentioning in the lead or they may not, but it's not pressing. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope, noted. Fine with "community of Marchwiel", south of Wrexham etc, as a compromise, although it has only been in the community of Marchwiel for a few decades (it had its own township of "Erthig/Erddig"). I wouldn't give WP:DUE weight to "Erthig" in the lead unless many sources today still use it or the article has a large section on the importance of the use of the spelling Erthig historically. Still believe Erdigg is a common typo. Yes any of the older/alternative forms of the name can be in the body when appropriately referring to specific historical use or just under a "name" section. DankJae 15:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)