Talk:Ely Cathedral/Archive 1

Archive 1

Choir

Should there be an article about Ely Cathedral Choir?

If you have enough material to create a decent stub, why not? - Ballista 05:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Added a small section, feel free to write more! --Stefan 18:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Lists

I suggest moving the two lists of abbots and abbesses as they do not add much interest to the article. Perhaps incorporate them into the Bishops of Ely article? --Stefan 18:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, they are really of little relevance--Dwyatt 101 16:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Titles

Iceflow reverted all my edits, including deletion of silly church titles, saying that "it had been discussed before". Where? --Attilios 14:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As the CofE is an established church (Ely is not a Catholic cathedral by the way) they are more than just church titles. He and I had a discussion about which people should be listed, possibly more on his talk page than here (or possibly even just in earlier edit summaries for the page), I can't remember if the styles themselves were actually discussed, but I'm not sure what precisely your objection to them is, they are in common use in England. In addition, it is possible in the CofE to have lay canons, and someone who has been ordained a bishop (usually someone who has been a suffragan i.e. assistant bishop) can then be appointed as the Dean of a cathedral so the titles give a certain amount of useful additional information about people who are not necessarily notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles. Those entitled to style themselves "Dr" have probably gained the title from a normal secular university (unless any of them are Lambeth degrees), so those are not purely "church titles" in any case. Your edit summary ws perhaps slightly misleading, in that it only mentioned the removal of the titles, rather than the image and other changes, which are comparitively easy to overlook, even in a diff. David Underdown 14:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep the titles. They are there for a reason, and I'd hardly call any of them "silly". Stefan 03:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

New placements: Vice Dean

Can I just confirm back to the article with respect to an edit I made the other day, that the post of Vice Dean is Currently Vacant within Ely Cathedral, owing to the retirement of the former Vice Dean, Revd. Canon. Dr. Peter Sills. The Precentor, Canon David Pritchard, is currently filling this role, as Acting Vice Dean only. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 11:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Bricking up windows?

Does it seem like a lot of windows have been bricked up? Why doesn't the article mention anything? And in the featured photo, it looks like there was more building to the left but it was destroyed/removed, leaving a semi-jagged wall. --98.232.182.66 (talk) 10:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

They're purely decoratice niches, I think rather than bricked up windows, possibly they might have had statues associate diwth them at some point, I don't know. The collapse is mentioned "The north-west transept collapsed in the 15th century and was never rebuilt, leaving a scar on the outside of that corner that can still be seen." David Underdown (talk) 10:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

They may also be old doors going through the building, since it started life as a monastery, if my memory serves me correctly. They are seen on the ground floor as well at the first and second levels. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Info Box

Causing the usual problem of a gap in the text, but only on wide monitors, this time. See also Chichester, Bristol, Canterbury etc. Please LOKK before saving any pic or box! Amandajm (talk) 07:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Lady Chapel

"The cathedral was soon refounded in 1541. Later, during the English Civil War, the lady chapel had many of its statues destroyed by Puritans under the control of Oliver Cromwell." What's the source for this? The leaflet I got from the cathedral yesterday seems to think that the serious vandalism occurred in 1541 ("in 1541, soon after the dissolution of the monastery, windows were smashed and sculptures removed or defaced.") I wonder which is right? --Ewx 11:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would imagine that the leaflet is correct, in which case I'll change the entry. It's perfectly acceptable to make changes yourself, though, if you know they're wrong. Bob 18:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

My understanding was that it was Thomas Cromwell that did the damage - not Oliver. He just had the place closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.131.174 (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The truth is nobody knows because there is no firm archival evidence either way. Different authorities ascribe the blame to the reformation iconoclasts or to the Puritans according to their particular political views. Leaflets handed out in churches and cathedrals are often quite unreliable, based on local legends and hearsay rather than serious academic evidence. The excellent Bell's Guide (W.D. Sweeting, published 1901 but still well respected) says; It is always taken for granted that the destruction of the beautiful work in the lady-chapel, as well as of the shrines and statuary in the cathedral, was effected very soon after the dissolution of the monastery; but precise authority for this seems not to be forthcoming. It is known that Bishop Goodrich was an ardent supporter of the Reformation movement, and that he issued an injunction in 1541 which would have authorised such destruction. There was no other material damage done to the cathedral at this time. In 1566 a parish church, dedicated to S. Cross, which was situated at the north side of the nave, was found to be so dilapidated that no attempt was made to render it fit for service, and the dean and chapter gave to the parishioners the lady-chapel for a parish church, and it has so remained to this day. It is probable that the wealth of the monastery had kept the fabric itself in such a state of complete repair that there was no occasion for much sustentation work for a long time after the Reformation—at least, we read nothing of any work being undertaken or of any portions of the building falling into decay. In the Commonwealth period the cathedral suffered less than in many places. The stained glass was indeed destroyed, and the cloisters and some parts of the domestic buildings pulled down, by order of commissioners. As Oliver Cromwell was Governor of the Isle of Ely, and often in the city, he was not likely to let the cathedral services alone. In January, 1644, he interfered during service, and stopped it, ejecting the congregation, and is said to have professed that this was an act of kindness, in order to prevent damage to the building. According to Carlyle, he had written to the officiating minister, requiring him "to forbear altogether the choir service, so unedifying and offensive, lest the soldiers should in any tumultuary or disorderly way attempt the reformation of the cathedral church." If the people of Ely had heard about the "reformation" of the cathedral church at Peterborough, as carried out by the soldiers of the Parliament in July of the preceding year, they were certainly well advised in taking this hint. Bishop Wren—an eager opponent of the Puritans—was at the time in prison, where he remained until the Restoration (page 29). Hope that helps. StuartLondon (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Panoramic view

Ely Cathedral

Attempt to work out why the perspective looks strange.

Consider using this image in the gallery or elsewhere to illustrate this article.--Senra (talk) 12:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't want to be rude or anything, but it's not really a very true likeness of the cathedral is it? Because it's stitched together the angles on the tower are really rather weirdly squashed - that lamp post is nearly at 45 degrees! Rob (talk) 10:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the angle of the lamp post results not from the stitching software but from the actions of some local youngsters who overdid it in the Minster Tavern... Anyway, whatever its artistic merits, I would agree that the photo doesn't give a very accurate or helpful sense of the architecture so I'm not sure it would add anything to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by StuartLondon (talk • contribs) 11:14, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Haha, there is something strangely compelling about the stitching on the photograph - it gives it a slightly abstract look that I can't quite grasp. I suppose it's because the angles on the individual photos were slightly different, but when stiched presents it as a whole that it doesn't resemble in reality - the perspective presented by the single photograph is not one permitted by the laws of geometry! Rob (talk) 13:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced material

Much of the material in this article is unsourced. Per the Wikipedia verifiability policy, material that is not supported with citations to reliable sources may be removed. For the avoidance of doubt, the further reading section is not a replacement for citations to reliable sources. If you wish to use one or more sources from the further reading section as references in the body of the article, remove each source in the further reading section as you cite it in the body. To help trigger proper referencing in this article, I have removed part of the unsourced material and placed it here:

Choirs

Ely has a cathedral choir of boys and men, which has recently attracted international attention because of its association with The Choirboys: two of its members, Patrick Aspbury and CJ Porter-Thaw, are choristers at the cathedral. Boys are educated in the junior department of The King's School, Ely.

The Ely Cathedral Girls' Choir was also launched in 2006, comprising 18 girl choristers who are pupils at The King's School. The choir's debut CD, Sing reign of fair maid: Music for Christmas and the New Year, directed by Sarah MacDonald, is available from Regent Records.

The cathedral community also has an adult voluntary choir, The Ely Cathedral Octagon Singers and a children's choir The Ely Imps. in 1994 the two division bell pink floyd statues were placed and the mouth of the two statues leads to the Ely Cathedral

— Removed in this edit

--Senra (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Struck unsuitable material as overtly promotional --Senra (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Overview and dimensions 8000 eels

No reference here. Is the payment continuing today? SovalValtos (talk) 07:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Section Order

Might it be better for the religious community section to be moved down below buildings? The article is Ely Cathedral, whose structures have housed different communities. The size and wording of the headings under buildings might be improved. Two lots of later; the second perhaps to be changed to post reformation? SovalValtos (talk) 22:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Image Galleries

Guidelines rather discourage random galleries simple. I have started grouping images in the gallery with the intention of creating a more logical progression to make it easier to see what is included. The existing gallery might be sub divided in future to illustrate other sections. I have been pointed at the Wells Cathedral page for good use of galleries. There may be useful images to add to this one, and perhaps some to remove. My next intention is to go through Commons to see what might be gleaned. The Lady Chapel so far is poorly served.SovalValtos (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Help with this superb subject would be appreciated. Images could be a useful integral part of the article. The ground plan is already vital.SovalValtos (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Image

There appears to be some dispute over the which image to use in the Infobox. It needs to be decided whether an image that portrays the entire building is used, or one which merely shows the west tower.

An image depicting the entire building gives a good overview. But, a view of the west tower is more representative of how the Cathedral is generally seen from the ground.

I suggest that we use an aerial image in the Infobox, and place an image of the west tower elsewhere in the article.Innocenceisdeath (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the image of the west tower is stronger, is more distinctive and accords more with the view of most visitors. For these reasons I think it would be a better image for the info box. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to switch images round in the article. If the image is changed again, we should continue discussions here. Innocenceisdeath (talk) 20:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

An alternative is a view from afar. There is not one in commons that is exactly what I have in mind, but the file

Ely-071

is nearest. In fact too near (spacially). A view from further afield, showing the building in its wider Fen context would be better. Both the west tower and lantern deserve inclusion.SovalValtos (talk) 12:25, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The current aerial image is of insufficient quality to be used other than in a gallery ,even at max size, so I will trial some changes soon. SovalValtos (talk) 05:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I have now cropped the image and reloaded it. I hope I have done everything correctly. Here it is to compare

Ely Cathedral Cropped version of the original file

SovalValtos (talk) 11:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The image from the fens is now in the info box, but I cannot work out how to put the view of the towers in History. The aerial view might better be in Today SovalValtos (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I hope today's changes are an improvement SovalValtos (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

The one you (Heuschrecke) have just added is better lit than the previous one and benefits from the trees not being in leaf, but the angle is not as good with the foreground brick buildings. I would like to see a winter image (no leaves) taken from the hill near Stuntney (52.376 0.281) preferably with early morning light and the low ground covered with mist! I am based over a hundred miles away and might travel myself, but a local to do a recce would be welcome. Probably a 300mm telephoto needed. SovalValtos (talk) 10:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The image Heuschrecke added was not centered, and it only contains a partial view of the Cathedral. While a view from Stuntney in early morning light is surely beautiful, I doubt that it is the most representative view of Ely Cathedral. This is an informational article, visibility and detail should come first. I am switching back to the aerial view because it show the entire building. We certainly don't need an aerial view, and a view from afar. If someone can get another full image of the Cathedral without shrouding it in trees then this would be excellent. Otherwise, I don't think any other image demonstrates the architecture of the building better than the aerial view. Please note that in the aerial view, you can see the Lady Chapel, which is hidden in the other images, and you can see the entire side of the building, which is also hidden it the other images.Innocenceisdeath (talk) 10:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Square bracketted numbers not citations

Does anyone know the meaning of these? The first to appear seems to be "King Henry III and other dignitaries.[13]" in Gothic elements/Early, and then they run right through the article to "surmounted by the 1690s organ case.[25]" in Later history of the building. They don't coincide with the references so I assume a previous edit has removed some footnotes or something, but I can't find that edit. Emerald (talk) 12:54, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point - and having tracked down User talk:David Stazicker I see you got there ahead of me. Unfortunately, it looks as if these Ely contributions in may 2014 are his sole attempt at wikipedia, so 9 months on it may not get much reaction. The end result is a really impressive (and at first reading well researched) text, which would take some serious work and good source material to write from scratch. My guess would be that he must have developed the entries in a sandbox, and was cutting and pasting from the preview page instead of the source code, so it has no wikilinks (which would be easyish to reinstate) and only the ref numbers survived if it did have proper citations, which is going to be more of a challenge to come up with. I have got several useful books to hand including Philip Lindley's Gothic to Renaissance (with a chapter on the Octagon), and from rather longer ago, R.J.King's 1862 Handbook to the Eastern Cathedrals. I am hoping to borrow Meadows and Ramsey, 2003, next week, which I assume has the state of knowledge on the phases of construction etc, so would be happy to start checking and referencing some of the details. Are there any other key texts which would be expected to be referenced? RobinLeicester (talk) 23:58, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Whilst aiming to retain much of the very good material on this page, I can't escape the idea that as well as sorting out the citations, there needs to be a better structure. I am thinking that instead of the current time-based headings, the sections could relate better to the features within the cathedral. They could still be ordered with a broad chronology, but with headings such as 'Norman Abbey Church' [covering transepts and nave], 'Galilee porch', 'West tower', 'Octagon', 'Lady Chapel', 'Choir', 'Medieval sculpture', 'Dissolution and iconoclasm', 'Memorials', 'Nineteenth century additions'. Once I have got to grips with the material, I will see if I can start to migrate the material to both describe the features, and their place in the narrative of the building and the institution. (With the risk of stretching an analogy too far, the Octagon, as the element most notably singled out in general medieval architecture texts, needs to have as central a place in the text as it does in the cathedral.) At some point the lead paragraph will need to better reflect the whole page. By wikipedia standards I work quite slowly, so bear with me unless you think it is going very astray. RobinLeicester (talk) 00:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you that the article contains some good material, but could do with some reorganization. So I shall be interested to see how you modify it. I understand your request for patience, because I rarely have the courage to embark on such a task and take a long time when I do. LynwoodF (talk) 10:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

RobinLeicester I think your explanation for the square brackets is spot-on, and I probably won't hear back from their originator. The contributions were very good, so I am concerned that someone (justifiably) removes them for lack of verification. If you can fill in some of the gaps using the references you have to hand, that would be great. I live about 10 mins from the cathedral, so later on I will pop over there, there is probably a volunteer with encyclopedic knowledge and a shelf of references who can help me to back up the facts your references can't hold up. Let me know when you have done as much as you can. I also agree with your points about the structure. I originally went to the article because I was interested to know about the 'disappeared' north-west tower, it took ages to find and I was disappointed by the lack of information when I did find it! Emerald (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit.

In a recent edit the expression "very ornate Decorated style" has been changed to "very ornately decorated style". I think the original wording is exactly what was intended. Any comments? LynwoodF (talk) 10:07, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me but I have made a change before reading this. I will check talk before doing any more to it! SovalValtos (talk) 15:15, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

No need to apologize. You have made an appropriate change, using "Decorated" in its technical sense. Thank you for your edit. LynwoodF (talk) 15:43, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Burials

I think they would be better in date order. Were they not before? LynwoodF (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I can quite see the point of date order and will revert if others agree that date is better than alphabet. Not all the entries here have a date or confirmation of Ely Cathedral burial. The linked articles generally have a source which could be used on this page.SovalValtos (talk) 11:31, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it can be difficult to know what to do where the amount of information varies between entries. Thank you for giving thought this. LynwoodF (talk) 12:05, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Ship of the Fens

Ely Cathedral is not known as the Ship of the Fens just because of its prominent position on the landscape; it got the name because from pretty much anywhere on the horizon, it looks like an old 2 funneled steam liner. Would this be counted as trivia to the article, or could it be used of correctly sourced? CharlieTheCabbie|paġna utenti|diskussjoni 00:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

New Lead

Having got at least to a point with the architecture re-write, I have finally got round to re-doing what was a rather thin lead paragraph. I am sure neither the lead nor the article as a whole are 'finished' in any real sense, but I would urge not to introduce new information into the lead that is not expanded on elsewhere. (OK I know I just have - but maybe someone can sort out a more informed analysis of visitor and worship life of the cathedral - preferably from the viewpoint of notability rather than marketing-speak). RobinLeicester (talk) 23:05, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Contrasting Attitudes to the Restoration?

I note this comment at Carpenter's Gothic article:

The British denigration of Sir George Gilbert Scott's restorations at Ely Cathedral as "Carpenter's Gothic" are discussed in Phillip Lindley, "'Carpenter's Gothic' and Gothic Carpentry: Contrasting Attitudes to the Restoration of the Octagon and Removals of the Choir at Ely Cathedral" "Architectural History" "30" (1987:83-112).

I hesitate to add it here, but this suggests that GGS's restoration was not as universally well-received as the article now suggests. Snori (talk) 05:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

File:Ely Cathedral Octagon Lantern 3, Cambridgeshire, UK - Diliff.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Ely Cathedral Octagon Lantern 3, Cambridgeshire, UK - Diliff.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on September 13, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-09-13. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:06, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The ceiling and lantern of Ely Cathedral, an Anglican church in Cambridgeshire, England. First built in 1083, it is the seat of the Bishop of Ely and a suffragan bishop, the Bishop of Huntingdon. The central octagon, described by Nikolaus Pevsner as Ely's "greatest individual achievement of architectural genius", was built in the 14th century following the collapse of the Norman central crossing tower. The central lantern, which is also octagonal in form, has panels which can be opened to allow access from the octagon roof-space.Photograph: David Iliff

Canons

The list of canons is out of date now - actually there are two, one in the box at the top right and one in the body of the article, and they are mutually inconsistent.

Alan Hargrave retired in 2016 (special retirement service in January). Victoria Johnson and Jessica Martin need to be included. They were appointed following the retirements of David Pritchard and Alan Hargrave respectively.

I may do this update myself some time ...

146.90.14.156 (talk) 09:54, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

That would be ideal. I assume you have good sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The list of residentiary canons on the cathedral's own website includes Victoria and Jessica (and does not include David or Alan). I can find some appointment announcements easily enough. 146.90.14.156 (talk) 11:27, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

As long as they are WP:RS, there should be no problem, I'd urge you to go ahead and make the corrections. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:39, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Now done 146.90.14.156 (talk) 08:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:11, 4 January 2017 (UTC)