Talk:East European Shepherd

Country of origin

My Russian is a little rusty, I have added two sources to the article that state the breed was developed in the Byelorussian SSR, do any of the Russian language sources state the breed is Russian? Otherwise I think we should amend the infobox country of origin (and possibly the navbox) to Belarus, but retain the Russian kennel club recognition as it appears they were first standardised in what is now Russia. Cavalryman (talk) 23:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC).

It's wrong opinion because this breed was bred in http://ru.wiki.x.io/wiki/470-%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80

In Dnepropetrovsk, the kennel was engaged in German Shepherds, and not East European ones. Belarus also has no direct relation to this breed. This breed, like many other service breeds, was bred in the Moscow region, in the RSFSR. 212.124.6.90 (talk) 11:35, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Description

What is meant in the article by "black or sable"? Isn't sable another word for black? My Russian is essentially non-existent, so this is based on Google Translate, which I know to be a very unreliable tool, but the description given by the breed association here seems to list rather different colours (black, grey with black saddle, black-and-tan, (wolf) grey). Ping Cavalryman, who I believe added this material. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello JLAN, the list of colours was drawn from the Walkowicz & Wilcox source who lists them in a simple infobox-type box; they’re ordering is “Black, black/tan saddled, sable, rarely brindled or white”. Morris (also cited) says “primeval wolf-like shading in black-and-tan, but may also be seen in solid black and occasionally brindle”. My understanding is sable is grey/dark tans/mahogany/browns with overtones of black, our unsourced dog coat says “Black-tipped hairs; the rest of the hair can be gold to yellow, silver, grey, or tan”, whilst the Kennel Club’s German Shepherd standard says something similar “All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables”. I know two German Shepherds with coat colours like this on the right whose owners describe the colour as sable. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2021 (UTC).

That's weird, Cavalryman, and distinctly at variance with the equally unsourced content at Sable. It's also at variance with what the OED has to say. Reword it, perhaps, to remove the possible confusion? Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:04, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

It does appear to be common parlance for dogs, a couple of dog secondary source definitions:

• “Sable Black hair intermingled with lighter coloured hair”
• “Sable: Intermingling of black hairs on a coat of lighter basic color”

Happy to amend it though, perhaps a link to a an appropriately sourced dog coat entry? Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2021 (UTC).

Justlettersandnumbers, as you have no doubt seen I have cited the sable entry at dog coat (a better source was already in the article) and linked there from here. Please let me know if you think it requires further improvement or clarification. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 00:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC).

References

A lot of misinformation in this article!

I have tried multiple times to correct misinformation in the East European Shepherd article. I have put citation and reputable sites such as the Russian sites pertaining to this breed. Please anyone reading this article know that there's a lot of misinformation, and one needs to reach out to a reputable breeder or Russian site to get factual information. Melaniemayday (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for starting a discussion, Melaniemayday. Would you like to give a couple of examples of content that you believe to be misleading, and your reasons for thinking so? Ping Cavalryman, who wrote and sourced much of the content here (or more than I did, at any rate). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello Melaniemayday, thanks for starting this discussion. I have no doubts there are big information gaps in the article, but everything we write here needs to be cited to reliable sources. I have had a good look at your additions to the article, unfortunately breed clubs are not reliable sources, and kennel clubs are only reliable considered reliable sources for the content of their own breed standards. I look forward to seeing the article expanded with more comprehensive sources. Cavalryman (talk) 20:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC).

So my "best" sources are 1. A Russian east European Shepherd breeder who's family has bred them for generations. 2. A Ukraine breeder who has bred them for many years 3. A German breeder who has bred them for many years

All of these breeders are highly and fully dedicated to the advocacy for this breed. I'm close with them all as I'm working to become a breeder myself and have already imported 4 East European Shepherds over the years. The current sources are just dog encyclopedias with no dedication to specific breeds, just overall knowledge. Some which is incorrect unfortunately. I don't know how I can list sources that are actual experienced experts in this breed. Their webpages talk about them. The Russian breeder has a full book almost on her page about them and how her family has bred them for generations, you can't get a better expert in a breed than that. Melaniemayday (talk) 13:46, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The most significant misinformation is the "selectively bred" from German shepherds, this is highly inaccurate as many other breeds were incorporated. There are other small inaccuracies, but less significant. Melaniemayday (talk) 13:48, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Melaniemayday, in general we would not regard a dog breeder as a reliable source for the history of a dog breed, for the obvious reason that they have a vested interest in selling puppies and could (and in fact very often do) say absolutely anything that they think might help them to achieve that aim; they would not normally be considered an independent source. An exception might be a breeder who has a substantial reputation as a scientist or academic. We don't in general pay any attention to what is published on websites other than those of major and reputable institutions or organisations (and not always even then); anyone can get a website for a few euros, and can then publish just whatever they like (or very nearly so) without regard for accuracy, verifiability or neutrality. Those, however, are the basic principles that govern what content is included in our pages here.

If you think that other breeds were involved in the development of this one, please mention them here, with the reliable sources that support what you're saying – obviously, we don't want there to be mistakes in the page, and any correction is welcomed. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The problem is most English sites do not have accurate information regarding this breed, which is why my source was the rkf Russian kennel club which was the original kennel club to recognize this breed. I don't understand how a founding breed club is not a reliable source? That is the same as saying the American kennel club is not a reliable source for dog breed history. The American kennel club is regarded as one of the best sources for accurate information when it comes to dogs and dog breeds. So I am just confused as to why the rkf Russian kennel club that founded the recognition of this breed is not a reliable source? And why I consider the breeders reliable is because they are three different breeders from different countries who all agree on the history of this breed including a breeder who has worked with said breed and her family for generations potentially back to the founding of the breed. Now I will admit that some sources different versions such as some say a "variety of unknown local Russian breeds" were incorporated while others specifically say "Central Asian shepherd, West Siberian lakia, etc" were incorporated in the making of this breed. So it doesn't have to say the specific breeds but to say that this breed was selectively bred from just German shepherds is highly inaccurate. Melaniemayday (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)