Talk:Down syndrome/Archive 6

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Society and Culture and History Updates and Enhancement

Fine article. I believe it can be improved with additions to the sections noted above to reference and credit the subject of the following article http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Kathryn_McGee. History would be enhanced with references to the founding of key parent and advocacy groups by Kathryn McGee in 1960 and subsequent years. The National Association for Down Syndrome (the first parents group) and the Down Syndrome Congress should be identified. The articles should be linkedGerard1641 (talk) 22:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Recent papers explain Potter's link between trisomy 21 and Alzheimer's disease

See:

• Granic A, Padmanabhan J, Norden M, Potter H (23 Dec 2009). "Alzheimer Ab peptide induces chromosome mis-segregation and aneuploidy, including trisomy 21; requirement for tau and APP". Molecular Biology of the Cell. doi:10.1091/mbc.E09-10-0850. PMID 20032300. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

• Abisambra JF, Fiorella T, Padmanabhan J, Neame P, Wefes I, Potter H (1 January 2010). "LDLR expression and localization are altered in mouse and human cell culture models of Alzheimer's disease". PLoS ONE. 5 (1): e8556. PMID 20049331. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |pmcid= ignored (|pmc= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Watch for reviews...LeadSongDog come howl 17:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not the only recent work in this area:[1][2]

"It is plausible that trisomy 21 mosaicism in brain tissue, particularly within the hippocampus, may have originated from chromosome malsegregation events early in foetal development and may be a possible explanation for some sporadic forms of AD... Chromosome 21 aneuploidy would predispose these individuals to DS pregnancies and potentially contribute to an increased risk for developing AD later in life."[3] Fences&Windows 17:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Potrayal in fiction section

As I was adding in the reference to the recent Family Guy episode "Extra Large Medium" (which includes a subplot of the teen-aged boy dating a girl with Down syndrome (DS)), a couple thoughts came to mind:

• Should we split the article, with "Portrayal of Down syndrome in fiction" being its own separate article? I think that there could be an interesting history here (i.e., who was the first to play a DS-afflicted character, perceptions raised by how DS is portrayed, criticisms and controversey, etc.). It would need to be patrolled to keep out any superfluous additions.

• Should this new article, if created — or this article, if we keep it self-contained — include the controversey raised over the portrayal of the DS-afflicted girl in "Extra Large Medium," and how much (if any)? I think it could make sense, given that several of the DS-portrayals prior to this show depicted these individuals in a positive light; for instance, Corky on Life Goes On, whereas the Ellen character on Family Guy was shown in a decidedly negative light. Of course, reliable sources would need to back up the positive portrayals argument, and I think these can easily be found, such as a 1989-early 1990s era TV Guide (whereas there are already several online sources for how Family Guy handled the subject); a good compare-contrast, if you will.

Let me know your thoughts. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 15:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)]]

"my thought; down syndrome kids are soo sweet :)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.11.212.253 (talk) 19:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• I believe this is a great idea. This article does not cover media's attitude of Down Syndrome enough. Especially with the recent depictions on Family Guy and the media's view of Sarah Palin and her child. This is necesary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirkus M (talk • contribs) 04:15, 9 April 2011 (UTC) (Sorry, forgot to sign. Kirkus M (talk) 07:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC))

Disambiguation problem corrected

Hi I corrected the disambiguation problem about The Ringer to The Ringer (film), shall we remove the templates at the top of the talk page?? MaenK.A._Talk 11:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)vv very good!!! well done!!! 31-08-11

Image

Would Images like this one be beneficial to the article without affecting its featured status??, we can make images about features or complications of the syndrome, any ideas?? MaenK.A._Talk 11:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

'Notable individuals' edit

no mistake, but something to add on. Andrea FAY Friedman also had a main role in an episode of Law and Order: SVU, "Competence", playing a pregnant young woman named Katie. \--Flora tink (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)flora_tink

- Re: the inclusion of Trig Palin in the notable individuals section: I think we agreed some years ago that people with DS who were only notable because of their famous relatives should not be included - we previously deleted De Gaull's grandchild and some others I think. There are many people who DS who have famous relatives, that in itself should not warrant inclusion; and in fact in the case of children who cannot give consent, it might be regarded as an intrusion into the medical anonymity/confidentiality of a minor. Any thoughts, before I delete? Excalibur (talk) 10:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Mullarero, 29 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please add at External Links:www.downtv.org. It is a website where you can find all videos related to Down's Syndrome.

Mullarero (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Welcome. Please read our guidelines for external links. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 17:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

teen pregancy

is there a problem with teenage pregancy

Not really. Many people with Down Syndrome are infertile or at least have difficulty carrying children to term. Lenosy (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)Lenosy

Alternatives

The Alternatives section mentions a therapy as being unproven based on a single critical reference. Am I correct in thinking that successful treatments are usually confirmed using meta-studies based on many, often in the hundreds or thousands of studies ? The text at the moment references a single source that appears to be made up entirely of criticism and no actual studies. DJ Barney (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Conception section

"It is universally agreed scientific fact, that human life begins at conception when the two gametes come together and two strands of DNA unite into the 46 Chromosomes humans have in every cell in their body."

This "fact" is far from "universally agreed": it's the subject of ongoing heated debate, and this section really is going off on an unwelcome tangent: please take it to abortion debate. Empty Buffer (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been bold and removed that section. Regardless of you adding the POV template - which was far kinder than I think such an inflammatory statement deserved - it's just not the correct place for such unsourced statements. When they are (reliably) sourced they can be readded. a_man_alone (talk) 16:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

As an side-issue, might I note that talking about humans having 46 chromosones might be a reasonable generalization for overview articles about genetics, but factually (and verifiably) false for people with Down syndrome, who typically (other genetic conditions nonwithstanding) have 47? The line quoted above seems to almost suggest that people with the condition are not human at all, which, from the rest of this discussion, I presume wasn't the intent of the author. I hope, should part of this be restored, rewritten and sourced, that a little more care is taken. --j⚛e decker^talk 17:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Down syndrome's history and alcohol

I think it should be mentioned that "Down’s syndrome was for many years entirely attributed to alcohol until it was discovered to be a chromosomal disorder". Alcohol consumption is not the reason behind every health issue. 91.152.251.44 (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

If you can cite and find reliable sources - go ahead. a_man_alone (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Photo issue

There is no evidence that the child in the photo is suffering from DS, nor consenting to have his photo uploaded on the internet. In the description upon upload: "Jordan, a son of Excalibur, assembling a bookcase". Nothing that implies that the child is a DS sufferer. The picture should be removed, as the child in the photo (he may be an adult today, I don't know) As the photo was taken in 2004, can you, Excalibur, confirm that your son has DS and is consenting to have his photo on a Wikipedia page? MikeNicho231 (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The physical markers for DS are clearly evident in the picture. Excalibur has already confirmed all he needs to in the image licensing section, and given that it was he who uploaded and added the picture to the article[4], I'd say he's OK with having his son in the article. In fact, this has already come up at least once before.[5]. Although a quick glance at it and his (highly admirable) userpage give a clue as to the veracity of his claim. Also, you've a broken sentecnce in there "The picture should be removed, as the child in the photo (he may be an adult today, I don't know)" - what are you asking there? a_man_alone (talk) 16:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't use the word "suffer" in this context. My son, who is now 16, appears to delight in life, having just returned from a seven week trip to NZ and Australia; and having DS is really a fairly minor affliction compared to, for example, being a persistent troll ;-) Excalibur (talk) 23:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

New research toward possible treatments:

Green Tea Polyphenols Rescue of Brain Defects Induced by Overexpression of DYRK1A: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004606

Planned human trials for EGCG against DYRK1A: http://www.recherchefondationlejeune.org/en/dyrk1a.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.212.92 (talk) 05:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Overexpression of Dyrk1A contributes to neurofibrillary degeneration in Down syndrome: http://www.fasebj.org/content/22/9/3224.full —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.212.92 (talk) 05:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Notable Individual

I was going to add an individual to the notables section before realizing this page was "semi-protected" and, since I'm new, I couldn't add to this page. If someone else can make the change, you might want to add JOHN TAYLOR. He has appeared in such films as The Seventh Sign with Demi Moore, The Ringer, Dorian Blues, and Jackass 3D. He was also the subject of the documentary "Yours To Keep". HarleyKwinn (talk) 17:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Update: I can edit this page now, so I added John. HarleyKwinn (talk) 23:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

"many older parents produce children without the condition"?

WTF? MOST "older parents" don't have children with DS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.152.206 (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Trig Palin

This edit restored Trig Palin to the list of Notable Individuals with the edit summary "Entry was previously deleted, with editor claiming not notable, Wiki not a tabloid and person a minor. Item not tabloid fodder (Palin talks about it regularly in book), person is Wiki notable, condition not secret.)". However, Trig is not "Wiki notable": he does not have an article and his only distinguishing aspect is being related to someone notable. In the context of an article on Sarah Palin, Trig should be mentioned. In the context of an article on a medical condition, Trig is irrelevant. We do not list children of notable people unless those people are notable in their own right. See WP:MEDMOS. -- Colin°^Talk 17:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Mongolism

This edit added "Mongolism (formerly, now rare)" to the list of synonyms with the edit summary "Page disambiguates from "Mongloid race," and redirects from "mongoloid idiot" - the term needs to be in the introduction - it was used for to describe this condition upon clinical discovery by Down for over 100 years." Normally, these might be reasons to include the term in the lead sentence. But the term is offensive. We do not list "nigger" in the lead sentence of black people despite its use for many years. I have modified the redirect of Mongolian idiot to point at the history section. -- Colin°^Talk 17:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Colin - I disagree. The word "Mongoloid" is not offensive in of itself, as it is still used to describe a race - even in Wikipedia. "Mongolism" is only offensive if one views Mongol racial characteristics as offensive, an idea which I'm sure many Mongols, if not many Asians - and perhaps most of the native Occidental races - would take issue with. Furthermore, the term was used clincally to describe the condition of Down's Syndrome for over 100 years - anyone looking in a book or newspaper from just 40 years ago will find the term, google the wiki page for it, and arrive at Wiki's "Down Syndrome" page with nothing to link it in the introduction. In addition, there are many epithets and slang words for "black people," yet none of them need to be in the introduction. However, the descriptions "Mongloid" and "Mongolism" when used in reference to DS are neither epithets nor slang - just outdated medical terms (See Euphamism treadmill). An encylcopedia should strive to be intellectually honest, not politically correct. And don't forget that Wikipedia has an entire page devoted to "Nigger." Dutchmonkey9000 (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand where the offensiveness lies. Have a read of the source here. Physicians of old suffered from the ignorances and prejudices of their age, as no doubt we do, and used terms or had ideas about race that we would no longer countenance. The term is not just "outdated". It caused embarrassment and hurt and was offensive to those belonging to the races it was associated with. There is no reason for a 21st century encyclopaedia to give prominence to such outmoded terms, just as we would not consider adding the word "nigger" to the lead of black people. This isn't an example of the "Euphemism treadmill" you refer to. We can be "intellectually honest" by noting the historical use of such terms in the History section. Colin°^Talk 21:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not misunderstand where the offensiveness lies, Colin. The terms “Mongoloid” and “Mongolism” aren’t offensive to those with DS, they are offensive to Mongolians - I know this all too well, and I thought I made that point clear earlier. It was the Mongolian People’s Republic who moved to have the term changed in mid-1960s, not those with Down Syndrome (Indeed, the term “Down Syndrome” is already acquiring pejorative connotations in popular discourse). However, your point was simply that term is “offensive.” A term’s “causing embarrassment” and being “offensive” is hardly a reason not to use it when it increases clarity. When it comes to information, Wikipedia is not interested in what might offend, as many times such things are relative. If Wikipedia was even slightly concerned about offending people, then it wouldn’t have the material and images that appear on this page, this page, this page, this page or this page. The term “mongolism” was still being used in various medical media within the last ten years. To exclude it is intellectual dishonesty and plain old political correctness. Dutchmonkey9000 (talk) 04:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

The term belongs in the history section, and nowhere else. The paper makes it clear that the term had "misleading racial connotations and is hurtful to many parents" (a quote from the early '60s, before any Mongolian complaints were noted). It is historical, wrong, offensive and ignorant. I don't buy your "intellectual dishonesty and plain old political correctness" argument. That's just name calling and won't persuade me to change my mind. It does not belong in the lead of a 21st century encyclopaedia. Colin°^Talk 07:19, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

At some risk of a reversion war, I added a sentence clarifying that the nomenclature "mongoloid" and "mongoloid idiot" continued to be used through most of the century. I'm not terribly happy with the term; it's a throw-back to the bizarre and completely unscientific racial theories of the 1800s and early 1900s, but it was the term that was primarily used, and I think that it is a bit of revisionism to not state this clearly in the article. (However, I'll state right here that if my text does get reverted, I don't plan to fight about it.) NumberC35 (talk) 16:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Spam?

===Hearing loss===

As most hearing losses in Down syndrome are conductive, a bone conduction hearing aid(BAHA) provides several well documented advantages for this population:

• BAHA bypasses the conductive hearing loss and provides better outcomes (if the conductive element is >30 dB).
• Obstruction free ear canal. Because Baha never obstructs the ear canal, recurrent ear discharges dry properly, which further reduces the incidence of recurrent ear infections.
• Many Down Syndrome children miss out on the benefits of their conventional hearing aids because those aids are removed or lost.

Due to physiological conditions, patients with Down Syndrome are at particular risk for some degree of hearing impairment. Baha is a good amplication option if the conductive loss is >30 dB. Multiple studies for this patient group have shown great benefit and high levels of patient satisfaction with Baha.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 70.188.12.6, 19 May 2011

Fix spelling: nostes should probably be notes.

---

Mental characteristics

Most individuals with Down syndrome have intellectual disability in the mild (IQ 50–70) to moderate (IQ 35–50) range,[16] with individuals having Mosaic Down syndrome typically 10–30 points higher.[17]

Dr. Weihs nostes the mental qualities of people with Down syndrome to be "unsexual," "playful," "affectionate," "mischievous" and "imitative".[10]

---

                              Sincerely
                              Elliot

Notable Individuals

LAUREN POTTER!!!!! Her portrayal of Becky Jackson in Glee and her sweetness definitely should put her in there. I'm surprised she isn't already <3

Sincerely,

L  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lufthanzi (talk • contribs) 03:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC) 

70.188.12.6 (talk) 22:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Already done by other autoconfirmed editor. Kinaro^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Representation of Down Syndrome in art

Fra Filippo Lippi, the Madonna of San Trivulzio, (about 1431)

I wanted to share this delightful picture with you. This is possibly Fra Filippo's earliest known painting. He appears to have been in his teens when it was done. It is interesting in that it reveals few of the formal qualities of a trained painter of that day. This is probably why all the children all appear so natural. One feels as if they were the children from the village of San Trivulzio. I love the friendship shown by the arm around the shoulder.Amandajm (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The Madonna looks kind of annoyed, like she's rolling her eyes and thinking, "will all these annoying people ever leave me alone?" (I can see how being worshiped all the time could be tiresome. :-} )

The features do look rather suggestive of DS, but I wonder if that isn't just a quirk of the artist rather than an intentional portrayal. Do you know anything more about this painting or about Fra Filippo? 174.111.242.35 (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I would say that there is no doubt whatever that the face at the back right depicts a child with Down Syndrome. His mate behind her other shoulder may also have some disability but is not so characteristically DS. Fra Filippo Lippi became one of the greatest painters of the Early Renaissance. He had an illegitimate son, Filippino Lippi, who also became a painter. This Madonna and child with angel is one of his most popular paintings and is probably the one that had the greatest influence on later painters such as Botticelli and Leonardo. As you can see, from both pictures, he didn't habitually depict all children looking as if they had Down Syndrome. The contrast between the two little boys on the right, who are both looking directly at the painter, but with markedly different expressions, makes this apparent. All the faces there are depictions of individual children, not generalised children. Amandajm (talk) 03:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Further comment: As for the Madonna's expression, she has good reason to avert her eyes. Just out of view are two saints one of whom is the recently-murdered St Peter Martyr who is traditionally depicted with a large cleaver sticking out of his skull. It really is rather revolting, and no surprise if neither she nor the children want to look at him. Amandajm (talk) 03:10, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"Criticism of IQ Tests" — Chris Borthwick?

Who is Chris Borthwick (other than, apparently, somebody who wrote a book about Down Syndrome), and why does his/her opinion merit inclusion in this article? This individual has no Wikipedia page, and his/her arguments appear to be entirely speculative and not very convincing even if they had some factual basis. Surely people with DS are not the only hearing or visually impaired people to take IQ tests. I have a hard time believing that there is no accommodation made for people who have untreated visual and hearing impairments (and in any case, at least some of those forms of impaired hearing and eyesight common in DS are treatable). I'm not saying it's not possible that some of these factors contribute to reduced IQ scores in DS, but this citation does nothing to convince me of it. If anything it makes it clear that it's pure speculation. It would help if there were any actual research or something, or even just a (well-documented) case report of someone with DS who turned out to have untreated hearing or visual impairment that was skewing their test scores. 174.111.242.35 (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I corrected mosaicism

There is a mistake in the mosaicism portion of this article. It says that mosaicism may occur through one of two mechanisms: 1. a normal embryo experiencing a non-disjunction event early in the developmental process which would cause all of its progeny to have a trisomy (which is correct) and 2. A trisomy embryo also having a non-disjunction event in mitosis, so that one of the two cells will once again have disomy, which must mean that the other cell is tetrasomy and would probably die. This is not the correct mechanism. A trisomy embryo becomes a mosaic through anaphase lag. That is, one of the daugher nuclei of the mitotic event will exclude an the extra chromosome, making it disomy once more. This is the mechanism of trisomy rescue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.213.25.30 (talk) 21:02, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Redundant Text

The following text is unsupported and redundant, because it says almost exactly what the text after it says, but with less words and citations, "There is infertility among both males and females with Down syndrome; males are usually unable to father children, while females demonstrate significantly lower rates of conception relative to unaffected individuals.[citation needed]" 71.145.159.115 (talk) 20:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 17 October 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Return Karen Gaffney to list of notable individuals with DS

98.172.19.113 (talk) 18:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Please supply a reliable source.  Chzz  ►  00:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done

Edit request from , 17 October 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

Add link to "Buddy Walk" the charity to raise awarenes and funds for people with DS

98.172.19.113 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Please give a reliable source.  Chzz  ►  00:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done