Talk:Dirndl

Entkatholisiert = uncivilised

This is a very strange translation. The catholic church isn't equated with civilisation even in the "Holy Land Tyrol".

Modern Origins not so rosy ?

Seems the page is missing some of the modern history on the darker origins of the Dirndl as a traditional German national dress. "The modern Dirndl is, like so many popular thing, a product of National Socialism. The creative hit völkischer fashion landed a poorly educated temporary secretary who took the career opportunities in Hitler's Beneficiaries and became the Nazi star designer: Gertrud Pesendorfer, born in 1885 in Hall in Tirol, 1939-1945 Reich Commissioner for costume work and director of Mittelstelle German costume of the National Socialist Women , in charge of the whole kingdom. They drew from the Regional and clapped it to." What Hitler and the Dirndl have in common 96.31.177.52 (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

The dirndl has really suffered from the unfortunate fact that it was promoted by the Nazis as a symbol of German womanhood dutifully raising the next generation of warriors. But the claim that the Nazis invented the dirndl doesn´t stack up with history. The idea has been promoted in the past few years by Elsbeth Wallnöfer. But Wallnöfer has her own agenda. On my reading of the sources, Wallnöfer regards the modern dirndl as a corrupted form of the traditional tracht, and idealizes the Catholic heritage of Bavaria. In an interview, she likens Oktoberfest to the Nazi folk rallies.

The original source for the idea that the Nazis invented the modern dirndl goes back to the Nazi official Gertrud Pesendorfer, who in 1938 published designs by her friend Gretel Karasek, which Pesendorfer described as "renewed costume". Pesendorfer claimed that Karasek had made innovations from traditional designs to make the design sexier: the collar was removed, allowing display of décolletage; long sleeves were replaced by puff sleeves; the waist was emphasised with tighter lacing and buttons; and the skirt was reduced to mid length. But in fact all of these supposed "innovations" are found in earlier designs. Puff sleeves, for instance were popular from the 1890s onwards and are clearly visible in a painting by Emil Rau of a young dirndl-wearing girl reading; Rau died in 1937, before Karasek´s designs were published. To take another example, a postcard from 1918 shows a girl in a dirndl which clearly has no separate collar.

Why did Pesendorfer claim that Karasek was responsible for the supposed innovations ? My suspicion is she wanted to deny the extent of the changes in design introduced by the Jewish brothers Julius and Moritz Wallach. For the Nazis, it was unacceptable to have a symbol of German folk tradition which was "tarnished" by association with a supposedly inferior race. SRamzy (talk) 16:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Untitled

See also Tracht!

I am not convinced that this page is either particularly informative or consistent, to say nothing of POV etc. Someone who knows more than me about fashions/costumes (it is not too clear which of these the dirndl aspires to) could do very little to improve this page a great deal.

The above comment was made on 10 May 2006 by User:Jakubukaj. This comment by: Bards 00:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Although it's impossible to tell why, someone identified only with an IP address added an {expert} tag 6 days ago... in apparent commiseration with this comment. It's worth noting that this comment was added more than three years ago, and the article has improved much since then. I've removed the tag. In my opinion, the only thing this article lacks are more references.

-OrinR (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Adam Zamoyski, the Dirndl was 'invented' (perhaps in its modern form) by Caroline Pichler. See his book 'The Rites of Peace', pg. 304, para. 3. 82.133.23.18 (talk) 11:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

What would be the correct pronunciation of "Dirndl"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.108.163.1 (talk) 14:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's dɪrndl. The German article about the Bavarian language (http://de.wiki.x.io/wiki/Bairische_Dialekte) indicates, that there is only a r and no ʁ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.167.66.158 (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Totally wrong! This word is Standard German, you don't trill the R. The Bavarians even replaced it with an A, so there is no R in this word at all. --83.135.100.31 (talk) 10:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

And Southern Brazil

Probably worth citing something for that whole statement. And if we're including Brazil just because there's some German beer halls that encourage this, we could include a lot more places. Dlamblin (talk) 17:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Brazil seems far-fetched. I've removed it from the article while I look into it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Image dispute

The dress on the picture, signed "Traditional Bavarian Dirndl dress during Oktoberfest" - definitely NOT a dirndl, please compare with the german version of the article. Rather, it is a spam from russian photographer living in Germany, who used this way to post pictures of his girlfriend on the Internet. There are enough free photo hostings, why misuse the Wikipedia?88.68.242.105 (talk) 06:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Let us please not vandal the page with deleting what has always been an inherent part of the Dirndl dress, especially nowadays, in its modern appearance, thank you.62.167.12.26 (talk) 12:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

62: Please do not refer to the edits of other contributors as "vandalism" when they are not. (See WP:VANDALISM) Also, do not remove other editor's comments from the talk page.

I don't know if 88's claim about the photographer is correct, but I will say that I perceived it in very much that way myself when I saw it - it looked like a photo of someone's girlfriend. I also don't know enough about dirndls to know whether 88 is correct that the picture in question does not show a dirndl, but I do know that this sort article has enough images in it already and does not need anymore. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Better distinction

Dirndls are worn ONLY in Bavaria (and the other mentioned countries). And this ONLY while traditionally feasts. And this even not from all. The (worldwide) misunderstanding, that all german/switzer/austrian girls and women wear dirndl ist totally wrong(!) and should be described here somehow. Therefore I suggest to use an other word for "especially". (Alberich from german WP) 88.69.255.52 (talk) 08:05, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source (in English) which confirms theses claims? BMK (talk) 08:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

1. I am german and live here (Cologne), and know how the people of Berlin or Hamburg are dressed ;-) 2. even a stupid german knows that NOT ALL americans wear stetsons. These are mainly worn in Texas and states nearby, or as a part of uniforms. It's common knowledge and needs no exta sources. Germany is not an province in India or elsewhere. But it's ok, if somebody looks for those sources. But it's important to get away from these wrong picture americans (or other) have got from Germany. Also in the english WP (Alberich21 German WP) 88.69.255.52 (talk) 08:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Dirndl "code"

I deleted what I thought was a junk claim referencing junk journalism; it was reverted by someone saying "it's sourced." For a positive claim about the meaning of a clothing signal that could get people who took it seriously into real hot water, I'd say you need more than that. It's something some German and Austrian women make playful references to, but assuredly nobody uses it as a clue as to whether a given girl should or should not be approached. So I'd suggest simply deleting the following:

Sonja Still, a Munich-based journalist, says: "Today people look more closely at this than ever."

Dirndl Knot Issue

Call it Urban Legend is far fetched. Thats what accredited local guides tell to tourists like if it's a fact or it used to be in the past. But perhaps is not an Austrian custom, nor Vienese but an Alpine custom because Austria is not homogenous in its traditional outfits either.139.47.43.133 (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Naming

As a Munich local I'm very puzzled about the list of terms in the "Naming" section. Almost all of these terms don't exist in German or their English translation is wrong.

1. "Dirndl-kleid:maid girl’s dress." The correct spelling is "Dirndlkleid" and the meaning is simply "girl's dress" ("maid girl" would probably more refer to a female servant which is misleading).
2. "Dirndlgewand: maid girl’s dressing-gown." "Dirndlgewand" simply means "girls' clothings" in Bavarian dialect, "dressing gown" is completely off track.
3. "Dirndlgwand: maid girl’s wreath dress." No idea what a "wreath dress" might be (and Google couldn't help) but "Dirndlgwand" is just a dialectal variation of "Dirndlgewand".
4. "Landhausmode: country-inspired fashion." Correct.
5. "Dirndlkjoler kleid: maid girl’s dress." This is really weird – "kjoler" means "dresses" in Danish and "Kleid" (with a capital K) is German for "dress". This combination doesn't make any sense.
6. "Dirndlkjoler: maid girl’s robe." Ditto.
7. "Dirndlrock: maid girl's dress skirt." A dirndl is a one piece dress, not a skirt with a separate top. A skirt in dirndl style would be called "Trachtenrock" (skirt in local/ethnic style).
8. "De-Cocratisiert: open-collar." This term simply doesn't exist, neither does "crocratisiert" nor anything similar.
9. "Entkatholisiert: de-Catholicized." Correct, but not a common term.
10. "Unzivilisiert: uncivilized." Correct, but I see no relevance here.
11. "Unkatholisch: uncatholic." Ditto.
12. "Nicht katholisch: not Catholic." Ditto.
13. "Unbeschnitten: uncut." "Unbeschnitten" can mean "not trimmed" but the usual meaning is "uncircumcised". Weird.
14. "Ebergötzen-kleid: Iceberg dress." Ebergötzen is a small town in the center of Germany which is neither known for dresses nor icebergs. The only Google hit for that term is this Wikipedia article.
15. "Eisbergkleid: Iceberg dress." Lexically correct but makes as much sense as "lettuce trousers" or "windshield shoes".

I'd like to delete this whole nonsensical section if no one opposes. Hagix (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

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This lemma is a disaster

Dirndl is a disaster, full of errors and spelling mistakes. I would love to improve it but my english is not good enough. I know thought a lot about Dirndls and traditional dresses. Would anyone like to give it a try on working together?

In the meantime I am going to delete the worst of the mistakes and the interspersed nonsense. 15:07, 30 September 2018 (UTC)Woisch (talk)

Sorry, I am not a native speaker either. Nevertheless, I encourage you to be bold: either someone improves you, or reverts you, or the article stays at it is. Cheers and good luck. Purgy (talk) 09:03, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

One of the "sources" (http://germanchoices.blogspot.com/2017/10/dirndl-german-dress-dirndl.html) cites the Wikipedia article as a source, so we have circular referencing. This blog article uncritically repeats a lot of the nonsense complained above, including the list of pseudo-Geramn. I will delete it as a source. Sean Ramsay 3084 (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I have replaced the image of Schwarzwald Tracht because it does not illustrate a dirndl. The image appears in the article on Tracht. I have replaced the image with one showing Tracht dresses from Faakersee, which are clearly dirndls. Sean Ramsay 3084 (talk) 13:41, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I have just removed the reference to the rock opera "Jedermann", as the only connection appeared to be the word "entkatholisiert", which appears in the section on the Nazi years, and which there is used in a different sense. Sean Ramsay 3084 (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Deleted dead link to article in Elle. Sean Ramsay 3084 (talk) 16:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)