Talk:David McWilliams (economist)

Nice Autobio there David

2007 Discussion

At the age of 22 you were drafting EU legislation? Who do you think believes that?! I won't even go into the other crap that you spouted about yourself in this article. Hint: If you're goin to write your own Wiki page a)make it believable and b)don't make it so obvious that you wrote it yourself. I'm just glad that the latter part of the article has been added in giving a fuller view of your real personality. I'm just wondering when you are going to start writing the Wiki page for your oh so original and entertaining buzz words... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.209.248.9 (talk) 13:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

This article is ridiculous rubbish. Big claims and absolutely nothing to back them up...typical David McWilliams I suppose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgarvin (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the neutrality tag - completely incorrectly placed. The article simply needs more references; most of it seems copied and pasted from his own bio page. Schcambo (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

2009 Discussion

The article is still incredible... there are whole self serving passsages that are STILL intact from http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/about SO 1) When you see this, DELETE them, 2) Don't say we just need more refs 3) Don't remove the neutrality tag. Anyway by the time I'm finished with this evening, should be better. cckkab (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll put this very plainly: a lot of what you have done is quite simply inserting your own POV to this article. There's a happy medium between info found on his own website and others' deprecation of such, and unfortunately we've swung from one pole to the other. Exemplary of this is your complete of all mention of him being an economist. That's just foolish. It's completely verifiable from a multitude of sources, and you're not helping your arguments by being so purposely ignorant. Anyway, I'll get back to you some more once I've taken a better look. Hopefully we can reach a happy compromise. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 23:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, this link doesn't mention the Maastricht Treaty. The line it supposedly referenced can be found here however, which is an acceptable source. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 23:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Please, stop for a moment and take some time out. This is completely unacceptable: "McWilliams is known for his nationalistic, eurosceptic views, and his strong defence of the common citizen". You're basing it on one interview. How is he "known" for that interview? Can you find me anything anywhere in a veriable source where someone discusses that interview? Is there any reaction to it anywhere? No. And until there is, leave it out. You're drawing sweeping conclusions from your own mind. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 23:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Someone has already pointed this out to you on your talk page: do not use discussion forums, like politics.ie, as references. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 23:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Also note: "as illustrated by the subsequent media references" is not a reference. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 00:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Schcambo

You take self serving text (probably unwittingly) from the McWilliams biographies scattered around the place, and take them as fact !! You are retaining verbatim quotes from McWilliams as fact!

"McWilliams became the youngest director ever at UBS" You restored the verbatim quote from McWillams' website. This is patently untrue. I worked there. And the linkedin stats prove it. Over a quarter of junior positions at UBS are 'Directors" You deleted this. Can you restore all this text please?

McWilliams as an "Economist". You deleted the reference to him as a journalist. He describes himself as an economist everywhere. Does that suffice to delete "journalist". DMW has a basic degree in economics, He worked 3 years in his first job 15 years ago at the CBI as a junior economist. Then he worked as an investment analyst, and a journalist /broadcaster since. I can assure you that professional economists today do not see DMW as an economist. He has never published any research or any work that can be classified as "economics", the hallmark of an economist. I appreciate that you may see him as an economist Yet he is not working as one. What is unacceptable is that you delete journalist.

We cite the verbatim comments from David McWilliams on Marion Finucane He also made a clear call for the reintroduction of the Irish pound (I didn't transcribe it, but can do so). These are facts.

Yes you are right, we should not use discussion forums, like politics.ie, as references. We cite the facts or quotes. That is enough in this case You have deleted the facts from the David McWilliams page. Can you please restore them?

I also believe the article should at the top state in one line briefly what DMW's key are .. which very clearly are eurosceptic, and ultra nationalist, given all the far right quotes (although ultra nationalist is not the right word in Ireland... maybe ultra sovereignist)

You also deleted all the following, without comment, which all appears reasonable and necessary to me... McWilliams website makes several additional claims concerning his career:

• McWilliams claims that he first coined the phrase "Celtic Tiger". However The first recorded use of the phrase is in a 1994 Morgan Stanley report by Kevin Gardiner.

• At the age of 27 McWilliams writes on his website that he "became the youngest ever 'Director' at UBS", in his first job in an investment bank, in the UK. Yet over a quarter of the total employees at the UBS investment banking division in 2006 had the title of 'Director'.

• McWilliams credits himself as head of Emerging Markets Research for Banque Nationale de Paris at the ages of 30-31. Moreover during his stint there, "the Emerging markets team was the most profitable unit of the Banque Nationale de Paris world-wide", according to McWilliams' website.

• McWilliams credits himself with being the first to predict the 2008 demise in Ireland's property market and economy. .

And why did you delete italics for quotes... maybe I don't know style book Thanks for your advice. cckkab (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey Schcambo... you are not penning for DMW or related to him perchance. Incredibly you put back in... "At the age of 22 DMW was drafting EU legislation?"... that is the whole point ... the very first line... of this discussion...!! Who do you think believes that??? I am sure he did have a hand (a tiny tiny hand) in it, but it is not worthy of the mention that it is given. Get real. Please restore. cckkab (talk) 01:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, stop talking such BS. I'm not writing for David McWilliams, nor do I have any intention of doing so. A quick look at my contributions would have shown you I have far more experience as a user than you have.
1. Now, tell me, why are you continually "referencing" this page? Have you looked at it recently? It does not mention the Celtic Tiger, let alone claiming he coined the term. It does not mention his being a director at UBS. That fact is now referenced in the article via the Irish Independent. It does not mention the Banque Nationale de Paris. It does not mention the recession, nor does it claim McWilliams first predicted it. Moreover, the page in question was published on 17 January, 2007. That's before the recession even began. Honestly, where are you getting this stuff?
2. No, quotes shouldn't be in italics.
3. You're not going to convince anyone he isn't an economist, so I'd suggest you stop trying. If a mechanic is unemployed or gets a job in a local business say, is he no longer a mechanic? Also, I didn't delete journalist. It's still there in the very first sentence of the entire article. See?
4. There's an inherent difference between what it says in the article, that McWilliams was "helping to draft" E.U. legislation (which is referenced from a reliable source), and you saying above that I'm claiming he was "drafting" E.U. legislation.
Please dude, get a life. You clearly hate the man, but it's not going in here unless you get some references to back it up (and I daresay you won't be able to find any such is the idiocy of some of the things you're making out to be "truth"). --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Schcambo Well thanks for these comments 1) There is no need to get personal… it is only Wikipedia! So no need to talk about BS or tell me to get a life

2) You did reinstate elements that were a direct copy paste from davidmcwilliams.ie. I accept you did this unwittingly. However this is the whole raison d’etre of the start of this discussion! I will edit these out once again, unless you want to do it first. Hopefully we can give a more balanced view, right?.

3) " where he helped draft the Irish submission to the Maastricht Treaty " Sentences like this that you reinstated are a direct copy paste from davidmcwilliams.ie You say this is referenced from a reliable source ! A 23-year old first out of college, in his first job, gets to help to draft legislation. Incredible! And this is “sourced” by a 3rd party…?!!! That someone noted what he was doing in his first job?!! Incredible. He may have put a dot on the i, but is this notable? And this is a lift, a direct quote, from his website. We do not need a sense of realism and balance in this respect.

4) I am not continually "referencing" this page! I don’t even think it particularly notable, when I came across it (it was already in the contribution when I came to it)! However I left it in, under a separate section for awards. If you want to take all references to it out, ok. If I hated the guy, as you say, I would have taken it out, and certainly not given it prominence. I just want a balanced view... that is all… and it does not come from a copy paste from davidmcwilliams.ie, or associated websites !

5) ok I agree “economist” is debatable, if dubious to me. Maybe you might agree than that he can also be classed as a journalist, his primary occupation? That a journalist writes 2 books hardly merits labelling as an “author” (and knowing the usual connotations associated with this word)? davidmcwilliams.ie however effectively does use the word “author” and “economist” extensively. Doesn’t make the terms accurate or balanced though!. Try fitting him into Wikipedia’s “Lists of authors” !

6) Like I said, like has been requested by readers, a short description of his political and economic views at the start of the article are warranted. Do you agree? We can then discuss what might be a neutral description, that is developed more fully in the quotes… right? I note you took out a reference to these quotes… which is ok by me… just I thought it clearer before someone pipes up asking for a reference!

Anyway, I will proceed to make the above changes over the next day or two (and others as flagged above), unless you want to do it first. cckkab (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

1. I think by accusing me of writing for the man, you're the one getting a little personal.
2. and 3. There is no longer anything in this article that is referenced exclusively from McWilliams' website. In fact the only two occasions his website is used is in reference to his views on wealth, and in reference to the Young Global Leaders thing. Everything else is referenced by reliable third-party websites. (And if you do find anything that's not, feel free to remove it.)
4. You used that page (here, if you need proof) to reference four seperate claims which do not exist on that page.
5. He is classed as an economist and journalist right now. Stick that in the infobox too if you want.
6. Now, let's not go overboard in saying an anon and a single-purpose account carry much weight around here... I think that's a great idea though, but here's the problem: McWilliams' views are not widely discussed, anywhere. There's the one interview with Marian Finucane, but that's him saying what he thinks. It's totally arguable that he's a eurosceptic, and it's totally arguable that he wants the return of the pound. He doesn't specifically say either, and we can't say it for him, and we don't have some other reputable source(s) saying it either. That's the problem, and I don't really know how we can neutrally circumvent it at this stage. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 23:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Schcambo, from Cckkab —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cckkab (talk • contribs) 23:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC) YOU HAVE REINSTATED HAGIOGRAPHIC VERBATIM TEXT FROM DMW’S WEBSITE. You say “There is no longer anything in this article that is referenced exclusively from McWilliams' website”. DMW happens to have recopied the same text onto other websites – e.g. his publishers – and you think this is “independent confirmation”. Wow! And you still have not addressed the issue of how a guy in his early 20s in his first job gets to help drafting key legislation in a central bank, etc..

YOU WILL NOT REINSTATE SOURCES, REFERENCES AND DIRECT QUOTES FROM DMW. Contrary to what you assert, there are many sources for DMW’ views, notably his 2 books (and The Generation Game speaks getting fired!.. read it, pages 135-142, . as does notably another precious source, ... his interview with Eamon Dunphy (where he also talks about the different jobs he has done, and getting fired). You deleted other references e.g. I added what the title “director” in bank means. Why did you do all this damage?

YOU DENY ANY INTERPRETATION OF DMW’S VIEW. You say, “It's totally arguable that he's a eurosceptic, and it's totally arguable that he wants the return of the pound.” Yet the quotes from Marion Finucane indicate both in no uncertain terms! Also read The Generation Game, pages 220-23.

You are right too. I overstepped in some ways as well. Now I am going – given your ongoing unwillingness - to - state his career in a more neutral way, - put back in the references and quotes, and descriptions of them If you are still not happy, I suggest we ask for mediation, a neutral eye to tell us where to go. I HOPE YOU CAN AVOID PERSONAL INSULT, AND THAT WE CAN FIND AGREEMENT. cckkab (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi again Schcambo, from Cckkab ON YOUR REINSERTION OF COPY PASTE FROM DMC'S WEBSITE I accept you might have done this unwittingly. But you have an onus to check effectively e.g. enter into google the two following phrases site:.davidmcwilliams.ie "he helped draft the Irish submission to the Maastricht Treaty" and you see the source right there. Anyway the claim is incredible. Some of the other copy paste (also incredbile claims) from davidmcwilliams.ie has just had one or two words changed. NO NEUTRAL READER WOULD ACCEPT SUCH PARAPHRASING. You may not like what I add (and we can talk about that). But please don't put back in paraphrased text that will be deleted, and please don't remove references that I have researched. cckkab (talk) 13:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The all-capitals style doesn't really help your cause. Now, are you seriously accusing New York University and the Irish Independent of being biased sources? McWilliams has some influence in this little world but I doubt that extends to controlling a university and a newspaper. McWilliams could quite well be in favour of a politically united Europe. Just because he has suggests we threaten to leave the E.M.U. doesn't mean he is against the E.U. And he doesn't even say that we should take up the pound. He said that usually countries in our position devalue, and that we can't do that quite obviously. He simply uses Britain as an example. He doesn't suggest we change to the pound. (In all fairness, that's as likely as us taking up the dollar.) Oh and do I care if he was really drafting legislation at 22, or to what extent he was doing so? Not in the slightest. If it's referenced, it stays. As with the term 'director'. If they employed him as one, then we list him as one, regardless of what exactly he was doing in the company or how many people did it. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 19:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi again Schcambo, from Cckkab “MY CAUSE” IS, I HOPE, YOUR CAUSE TOO! We both want a better article, right? Not to score points? Effectively the article is better now, and Ive learnt something. I hope you will also have constructive changes to propose

• The section on McWilliams’ views is about as neutral as can be, in letting the eloquent McWilliams speak for himself about the euro etc.
• . The NYU was recopied from McWilliams.ie. Can you seriously believe that this is independent, so valid, or is the voice of NYU?! That justifies paraphrasing?
• The Irish Independent article is good and credible. But the line you are interested in starts off, “According to David McWilliams's website…”. I can personally vouch that DMW was appointed a “director” (and context as to what that means is useful). There is no objective source for being “the youngest ever”. And even if he was, it is not a particularly worthy of mention in itself. And the tone of the Independent is mocking. Also read The Generation Game about getting fired.
• “do I care if he was really drafting legislation at 22”. What we want are balanced facts, key facts, not propaganda.

I’m not going to argue anymore. Let’s hope the article will continue to improve, in the spirit of Wikipedia. (And if we a vandal repasting paraphrased propaganda, we’ll ask an administrator to help out? OK?). Bye, Cckkab cckkab (talk) 01:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

School of thought

To what school of economic thought does McWilliams belong? It would probably be worth a mention. 78.16.220.150 (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for tracking this down! 78.16.23.253 (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Questionable references

Some of the article is in bad need of editing to make it more encyclopedic:

• The word Kilkenomics is linked to the Kilkenomics website with a reference in the footnotes to the same page. WP:RS requires reliable third-party resources.
• There is a similar problem with the mention of the Dalkey Book Festival - the main body of the text links to the festival web site and the reference cited is a link to the same site! This suggests that these edits were made by someone unfamiliar with proper wikipedia citations.
• The sentence These ideas are explored extensively in “The Good Room” has a link to the book on Amazon.com as a reference. This looks like WP:REFSPAM.
• The passage "What I am saying is, that in Europe, if Ireland continues hurtling down this road...idea that France and Germany can just hang us out to dry – as has been the talk the past few days – should not be taken lying down" didn't appear to be a quote at first look - there are no quotes around it. The last sentence looks like an assertion with a relative reference to time. It it only obviously a quote if the reader looks back to the second sentence of the paragraph. This second sentence has two references after "reported in the international press," - they are currently numbered 24 and 25, but they look like they refer to the same article.(One has the author, publisher and article name, the other has a link.)
• The passage "He maintained that the bank guarantee should have been rescinded...our Government didn't so much lend the State's credibility to the banks as give it to them unconditionally." is another passage that isn't properly quoted. This time the problem with the reference is that it's just a literal string: "[4]". It will be difficult to check, as the current link of that number runs a search for David McWilliams on the Sunday Business Post site.
• The current number three link links to the front page of the Independent, so it's not clear what article was being referenced in the first place.
• The current reference number six link is to the Wikipedia article on the Celtic Tiger. Why it is being cited rather than used as a link to the notion of Celtic Tiger is a puzzle, but it is consistent with the poor references in the rest of the article.
• Ditto the referene number eighteen about the Global Irish Economic Forum.
• The current reference numbers seven, nine, nineteen and twenty-one are all links to YouTube. These should be checked to make sure they follow WP:YOUTUBE.
• The current reference numbers one(doesn't provide a working link), ten, fifteen, twenty-seven and twenty-eight link to David McWilliams official website. WP:ELOFFICIAL allows links to an official website connected to the subject, but WP:ELMINOFFICIAL suggests to keep the number of links to a minimum. There may also be an issue of not enough reliable third-party sources.

The overall impression is that the article has been edited with more enthusiasm than care; this should be overhauled to bring it more into line with Wikipedia policies. This is especially so as this is covered by WP:BLP. Autarch (talk) 00:16, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 57 14:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

---

• David McWilliams → David McWilliams (economics pundit)
• David McWilliams (disambiguation) → David McWilliams

– Main notability seems to stem from TV appearances (broadcaster) (writer) might be better dabs. In any case not more notable than all other David McWilliams ever combined. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support – this is probably left over from when there was only one article. The economist isn't "clearly more notable" than the other 2 people of the same name with articles and the move should thus be done.--MASHAUNIX 12:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support seems straightforward.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

More questionable references

• The section Political and economic views starts with a paragraph that claims the subject very few to accurately predict it would all end in a monumental crash with a link to a Youtube video. Said video shows him on an RTE show in 2003 predicting the crash, but does not show whether he was one of "few" economists to do so.
• The site Rise.global is cited - is it WP:RS?

Autarch (talk) 19:42, 13 March 2016 (UTC) A comment at the reliable sources notice board says that Rise.global is not WP:RS. Autarch (talk) 00:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I've changed the line making the claim that McWilliams was the only economist to predict the crash and that he accurately predicted the consequences of the crash too. These are separate claims and I am looking for evidence to support them in his writings (I accept he may have made remarks of this nature on air). --Taibhseoir (talk) 08:36, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Disputed Neutrality Tag

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I've done a bit of repair work on this article (it was almost worshipful before) and would welcome your advice on whether the "neutrality is disputed" and "fan's point of view" warnings can now be removed.

Taibhseoir Taibhseoir (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I see that the article is now more carefully phrased to say McWilliams is credited with coining the term "Celtic Tiger", but there is mo mention that it was coined in 1994 by Kevin Gardiner. See here, here, here, here and here. This reference points out that McWilliams conceded that he wasn't the coiner of the term. Given there are reliable sources confirming that Gardiner coined the term, shouldn't the article at least mention that? Autarch (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected status required

This article has been plagued by edits from anonymous users who are suspiciously sympathetic to McWilliams. The neutrality of this article has been disputed for years and bone fide attempts to bring it up to standard have been thwarted repeatedly. Is it time to make this semi-protected? Taibhseoir (talk) 05:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Schumpeterian economics

The article says "He has also mentioned a belief in Schumpeterian economics." Am I right in thinking that this refers to Joseph Schumpeter? (I'm not an economist, so I don't know how many economists of that surname there are. I looked at the reference and it seems to be a 48 minute 15 second podcast - there doesn't seem to be an option to search the podcast for words.) Autarch (talk) 18:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)