Talk:Daily Dozen Doughnut Company

Promising draft?

Anyone willing to add Template:Promising draft? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Not me, really. It does not look to have better sources then the version that was deleted. The Banner talk 18:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Notability

Hi @Another Believer to help with the review, can you please provide WP:THREE that have been added after the AfD discussion? S0091 (talk) 15:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@S0091: Sure, a few examples of coverage in reliable secondary sources come to mind: chapter 3 of Donuts: An American Passion by John Edge, 2, 3, 4. Perhaps not in-depth, but there's also commentary by notable food writers Ed Levine, Andrew Knowlton, Laurie Wolf, as well as Monique Polak. I'm not sure if these were added since the AfD discussion, as article expansion took place alongside the AfD. The last AfD discussion was complete chaos, fueled by a (now blocked) sockmaster who was contacting other editors to falsely accuse me of being paid to write this entry. I happen to think Wikipedia should have articles about restaurants that have been called the best in the United States many times by various publications. This article is an accurate and neutral overview, based on Wikipedia-appropriate local, national, and international sources, including books, magazines, newspapers, food websites and travel guides. Most donut shops could only dream of receiving this much coverage, but if editors feel an article is not justified, I'll move on to other restaurant entries! I hope this helps, --Another Believer _(Talk) 15:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Another Believer, I'm sorry, but if you're unable to tell us which notability-lending sources are new since the last AfD, how did this thing get back into mainspace in the first place? I'd really like an answer to that question. EEng 17:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If you review the article history, you'll see the draft was accepted at Articles for Creation. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't answer the question: how did that happen when you yourself are unable to tell us what new notability-lending sources have been added? EEng 17:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not doing this again. I'm tired of my words being twisted and I'm tired of being falsely accused and harassed and hounded by the same couple of editors. You can continue this discussion without me, thanks. I have way more important things to worry about. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

In my humble opinion - and I know you strongly disagree - it still reads like advertising due to every little detail being milked to get more letters in without adding to the notability. The Banner talk 12:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources in many forms and across the globe establish WP:GNG. You are not Doug Henning and you did not make them disappear. I don't like it or them is not a meaningful argument. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

At the earlier AfDs the sourcing was properly filleted as saying nothing about the notability. Maybe we should ask @Valeree: and @EEng: for another source analysis. The sheer idea that the author of a piece makes a restaurant notable makes no sense, as Wikipedia:NOTINHERITED. The Banner talk 13:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm absolutely slammed IRL, but I do notice that it's as hard as before to pick out the most strained source from among this slagheap of miscellany, but for the moment I'll go with Daily Dozen was not listed in Andrew Knowlton's 2010 overview of "America's best donuts" for Bon Appétit, but was subsequently included in his follow-up list of reader recommendations.. As noted in the prior AfD, this means the subject was "Not on the list of best donuts, rather a subsequent list of 57 donut shops one or more readers wrote in about, angry their favorite shop wasn't on the first list" -- the polar opposite of NCORP's requirement that Significant reviews are where the author has personally experienced or tested the product ... Reviews that are too generic or vague to make the determination whether the author had personal experience with the reviewed product are not to be counted as significant sources.

This thread opened with a request for the three best sources added since the Afd; the #1 response was chapter 3 of Donuts: An American Passion by John Edge. Perhaps not in-depth .... I see, so your best new source is one you admit ins't in-depth. Lord. This is the same shit, different day. EEng 17:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it is probably heading to Afd in the New Year. The whole idea of this article is a shambles. It's the same content as the last time and same style of clickbait profile reviews as references as the last time, in a article with virtually no encyclopeadic content, indicating its brochure advertising. The more time passes the more I think this editor is a UPE. scope_creep^Talk 13:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It is a prominent feature of a bona fide tourist attraction. Well known and recognized as such both far and wide. Kind of like Space Mountain .... You too can compare the sources ... 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:15, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Prominent features of bona fide tourist attractions are mentioned in the articles on those tourist attractions. That why the outcome of the last AfD was Redirect to PP Market (or whatever it's called). EEng 17:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Pike Place Market The Banner talk 22:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Creep: unless you have strong evidence to prove it, I suggest that you retract your inflammatory claim that "this editor is a UPE"! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 19:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I did a 22-source table for the previous incarnation. It's exhausting. AB, I want notable food establishments to have an article. I actively want it. I actively read the news looking for it. I even am willing to accept one major feature outside local coverage to send it up the flagpole. If I thought this donut shop were notable, I would be in there arguing that right next to you. Literally if you'd just tell me which three, I would be so very happy to argue that IMO this charming little shop was notable. I don't understand why you're so averse to just answering us: Which three? Valereee (talk) 20:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Page maintenance

Anyone able to add Template:Article history and update cluebot archiving? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I think Draft talk:Daily Dozen Doughnut Company/Archive 1 may need to be moved, too. Pinging User:7&6=thirteen, User:S0091, and User:Dr vulpes, in case any of you are able to help. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:42, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done moved the page over. Dr vulpes (Talk) 21:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Any chance you might be able to update Template:Article history? No worries if you're not interested. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The Daily Meal

Previously, the article said:

• The Daily Meal included the business in 2010 and 2012 lists of the best donut shops in the United States.

References

Should this be included? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Dr vulpes: Putting this discussion on your radar, since you removed the Reception section. Curious if you think this content is relevant. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Another Believer, the only concern I had when I reviewed the article at AfC was that I thought the reception section was a bit large. I think having some of it restored would add to the article. Honestly I just didn't know what reviews would make the most sense. I think I noted this on someones talk page and I should have noted it here at as well. Sorry if there was any confusion on my edit. Dr vulpes (Talk) 19:15, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll let others add back whatever they think is best! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

They are not more then listings more then 10 years old. They add nothing but letters. The Banner talk 13:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thrillist: best in the State of Washington

From Thrillist:

• https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/best-donuts-in-all-50-states-dough-donut-bar-doughnut-vault-pink-box-doughnuts

---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

• Reads, in its entirety:

  Wander into the Pike Place Market anytime between 8am and 5pm, find Daily Dozen Doughnut Co., and plop yourself in front of its Donut Robot, Mark II. (No really, he has a name.) Mark II churns out freshly formed dough, which then hits a bunch of hot oil, and travels on through the conveyor belt to a multi-tiered donut tree. The whole process is more soothing than a damn babbling brook.

How in the world does this pass muster under WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS, which requires that reviews Be significant: Brief and routine reviews (including Zagat) do not qualify. Significant reviews are where the author has personally experienced or tested the product and describes their experiences in some depth, provides broader context, and draws comparisons with other products.? The "author" of these "reviews" is teenybopper Kristen Hunt. Check our her CV [1] -- other works in her oeuvre include:

• The Best Cheeses You Need for Stellar Grilled Cheese Sandwiches
• 17 of the Creepiest Haunted Bars and Restaurants in America
• The 26 Best Beer Gardens in America
• All 185 'Game of Thrones' Deaths, Ranked
• Everything That's Happened in Netflix's 'Making a Murderer' Case Since Season 1
• Everything You Never Knew About Anthony Bourdain
• The Craziest Moments in 'Is O.J. Innocent?'
• 'Star Wars' Fans Are Losing Their Sh*t Over This 'Rogue One' Character

Now, are you seriously proposing she visited 50 donut shops in 50 states, maybe cataloging "Game of Thrones" deaths during her downtime in airport hotels? And while she was visiting, how did she come away with the idea the "Mark II" is the "name" of the donut machine (instead of, as any dolt would know, its model designation)? I mean really, have you no shame? The phrase "shit sources" doesn't even begin to describe it. EEng 02:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

And the hits just keep on coming

Just now, the following was added to the article's External Links [2]:

• Madrid, Cienna (February 7, 2008). "Doughnuts + Punks = Love". The Stranger.

Here's how the linked "article" begins:

I'm not good at expressing affection; my nickname growing up was "Mommy's Little Locust." So this is my first love note, but after seven years, it's due.

I'm a sugar fiend, and every week I walk down to the Pike Place Market to buy a dozen fresh cinnamon doughnuts ($2.55) and a glass of milk from the Daily Dozen doughnut stand (93 Pike St). The doughnut batter is made fresh every morning and mechanically squeezed into a lazy river of hot oil, creating mini doughnuts that are fried assembly-style as you stand in line. The smell is intoxicating. They're still steaming when they're bagged and roughly shaken with a cinnamon-sugar mix. Each hot, fluffy bite makes my teeth ache. After a dozen or so, the sugar tears into my tongue like sandpaper. Bliss! I go for the doughnuts, but I linger for the freak show.

The entire rest of the page is a weird love letter to a Daily Dozen employee named J-Sin, whose "plan is to leave Seattle this spring and start a doughnut shop of his own in Portland. His dream is to one day weld a doughnut machine onto the back of an old Studebaker truck, convert it to biodiesel, run it off of doughnut grease, and live the life of a doughnut-selling nomad."

Really and truly, what is the purpose of shoveling more such dumbfuckery into this article than is already there? How long is this going to go on? EEng 00:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)