Talk:Creed

older comments

-What about creed as a general set of beliefs that influence the goals in one's life?

Not the right definition. I think we are talking about litergical statements of belief with some historical significance, and church approval. These were usually issued as a response to heresy and designed to distinguish between orthodox and heretics. Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

-Under Islamic creeds I suggest presenting the Fiqh al-Akbar I. It is quite short and will give a non-Muslim some idea of the contents of larger creeds. If I had an English translation I would copy it in myself. If I don't find a translation soon I will make one myself. Kleinecke

Strongly agree. Please do this. I think there is room for Fiqh al-Akbar II as well. The Islamaic section is a section about what Muslims believe, which may be appropriate somewhere else in Wikipedia, but not here. It does not contain a statement that is recited as part of litergy! Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

-::I think that material on this should be included in this article. Please, add it. drboisclair 02:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

-what about defining creed as a short statement of belief summarizing a teaching and introducing inquirerers to the faith or religion being described? (paris blues)

No, under this definition anyone could write a creed. I think we are talking about statements with some historical significance. Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

@Mike Young "Anyone could write a creed" does not automatically mean "[no] historical significance". These two statements you presented have no connection. It doesn't matter what the definition of creed on this page for "statements with some historical significance" to only be included. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Significance being a requirement for inclusion is a given. Anyone could have written a creed that became historically significant, there's no selection of who may be significant here.

The definition of creed is furthermore not a matter of debate here as wikipedia is not a forum. I know other wikipedia page(s) do not count as a source, but the definition of creed seems to have nothing to do specifically with religion according to Wiktionary:creed#English where there is the text "any summary of principles or opinions professed or adhered to". Furthermore none of the words from which creed is derived has ever been specific to religion.. Middle English crede, Old English crēda, Old English crēdo, Latin crēdō. Wallby (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Islamic Creed Link

I removed what really seemed to be a non-NPOV article link unrelated to any Islamic creed; article instead argues that Islam is "the true religion of God." Perhaps we could replace with article on the shahada?--Robotam 19:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • Can someone add the english phonetics to one of the primary islamic creeds such as "There is No God but God, and Mohammed is his prophet". The phonetic pronunctiation was done for the Shmah and it would be nice to have a counterpart for the other faiths.

Apart from the Shahada, the other beliefs are not recited in the same way as Christian beliefs are. This not an article about the beliefs of Isalm or Chrisitanity, but about there formulaic recitations. I have therefore trimmed the Islam article to take this into account.Mike Young (talk) 14:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I tried to add an Islamic template, but it does seem to be formatting properly. I cant seem to make the template sit next to the Islamic creed section. I added the Judaism template to the Jewish creed section and that seems to be formatted ok. any help getting this right would be much appreciated, please edit it if you know how to fix it. but i do think its important if multiple Religions are mentioned on the creed page or any page, if 1 religion has a template showing on that page, they should all have their templates showing. in my opinion templates about specific religions on the creed page is not even necessary. a simple link to that religions wiki page is enough. Greataussiepie (talk) 14:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Disambig

I changed the disambig to Creed (band) because thats what people are probably searching for. Awesimo 01:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Creed???

This entry's assertion that "[t]he Jewish faith recognizes a single creed" strikes me as controversial at best, and inaccurate at worst.

As I understand it, Judaism is not a creedal religion: "By its nature," writes Rabbi Milton Steinberg, "Judaism is averse to formal creeds which of necessity limit and restrain thought." Milton Steinberg, Basic Judaism, 35 (Harcourt, Inc., 1947). "Judaism has never arrived at a creed because, highly as it rates the life of reason, it rates the good life even higher." Id.

Moreover, by asserting that Judaism's creed necessarily involves a "strict unitarian monotheism, the belief in one God," the entry excludes and denigrates one of American Judaism's five movements -- the Humanistic Judaism of Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Sherwin_T._Wine

I think the entry should be revised to acknowledge that whether Judaism is a creedal faith is controversial, and probably to reflect the fact that not all of Judaism acknowledges God. Eric Alan Isaacson 05:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I find Reform Judaism's 1976 Centenary Platform states that "Judaism emphasizes action rather than creed as the primary expression of a religious life." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/100.htm Eric Alan Isaacson 01:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the article to reflect what I believe is the mainstream view, expressed by Rabbie Milton Steinberg and others, that Judaism is not a creedal faith. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Creedless Christians

This entry speaks of "Assassin's creed II," leaving the impression that Christian faith is inherently creedal. That is not necessarily so. Creeds may be central for some Christian denominations, but they are rejected by others. America's Unitarian Christians have traditionally rejected creeds, as have our Baptists. Bishop John Shelby Spong, an Episcopalian, regards creeds as devices that create unnecessary division and strife.

This article strikes me as (1) inappropriately biased in favor of creeds, (2) inaccurate or biased in its implicit assumption that Christian faith is creedal, and (3) inaccurate in its assertion that Jewish faith is creedal. Eric Alan Isaacson 05:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. The Baptists' soul competence needs to be in here. Jonathan Tweet 05:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the article to better note the opposition to creeds of many Christian movements, including Unitarians, Quakers, and Restorationists. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC) I've also added quotations from John Shelby Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark, questioning the place of creeds in Christian faith. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 23:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations to varied points of view are fine, but we also have to be careful not to be misleading on either side of an issue (not saying that was your intent). Spong stepped down from his position as Episcopal Bishop of Newark, and, no longer believes in the deity of Jesus Christ. Simply quoting him without context is not helpful to the discourse.-RoBoTam^ice 15:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Episcopal Church is a "mainline" denomination, and Bishop Spong unquestionably a leader in that denomination, but I really don't object to your edit. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 07:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Citing Spong on the Christian creeds is like citing Karl Marx on capitalism. He is a fierce and partisan enemy of not only the creeds, but of traditional Christianity. This needs to be noted or the citation remove. Kjkalisma (talk) 21:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)Ken Kalis

---

<on opposition to creeds>

While, there is no detail to the opposition of creeds -- speaking for the Quakers of the time -- I can hopefully clear up some 'misunderstandings'. First, people should realize that the creed is recited before taking the Eucharist, those who cannot speak the creed are barred from taking in God's grace. The Quakers believe that man has no right to bar God's grace from anyone, just as they do not have the ability to give it. Some have observed that George Fox made a statement that is very much like a creed in form. Robert Barclay wrote a "Catechism and confession of faith" to be taught to the youth. These were not creeds, not because there was no enforced definition of faith (even George Fox was censored at one point by the Quakers), but because there was no ban placed on approaching God... or on God dispensing grace.

I believe, you would find a similar point of view in many Baptists, or the Mennonites. In fact, Philip Schaff's "Creeds of Christiandom" includes several enforced, public statements of faith which were NOT considered creeds, including statements from Baptists, quakers, and other non-creedal groups.

MORE ON QUAKERS: Quakers were traditionally non-creedal, depending on the Inner Light to enable continuing revelation. George Fox said, "Christ says this; the apostles say this; what can thee say?". During the nineteenth century, there were several schisms among American Quakers, during which many individuals and meetings assimilated to evangelical Protestantism while retaining the name and some of the attributes of traditional Quakers; these are today generally associated with Friends United Meeting and Evangelical Friends Church International, while more liberal Friends are largely affiliated with Friends General Conference. Friends United Meeting's creed is the Richmond Declaration, an 1887 document reaffirmed by the FUM board in 2014. Evangelical Friends Church International includes a statement of its doctrine in its 2018 Faith and Practice. Friends General Conference is non-creedal but members generally center their thinking around the idea of the Inner Light and the faith that "there is that of God in every person", resulting in the "testimonies" of Peace, Equality, Simplicity, Integrity, and Community, to which is sometimes added Stewardship. Since members of Friends General Conference do not exclude non-Christians, it is a bit ironic to see Quakers listed as "Christians Without Creeds", since the ones without creeds are not necessarily Christian, and the explicitly Christian ones are creedal. Curmudgeonly Pedant (talk) 16:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Trinitarian Creeds

The entry's opening sentence stated: "Christianity, affirming that God has become incarnate in the human being Jesus, has formulated a number of statements of faith that seek to assert this doctrine."

This struck me as a partisan Trinitarian statement, that fails to take account of the Unitarian Christianity espoused by the Rev. Dr. Joseph Priestley, Rev. William Ellery Channing, and many others.

I accordingly revised the opening sentence it to state: "Trinitarian Christians, affirming that God has become incarnate in the human being Jesus, have formulated a number of statements of faith that seek to assert this doctrine."

Eric Alan Isaacson 16:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

high-importance, start-class

This is a high-importance, start-class article, so I'm willing to give it some work. Jonathan Tweet 05:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

If you like where I'm goiing, say something. If I'm on the wrong track, I don't want to invest more work in it. Jonathan Tweet 17:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

What you're doing seems to make sense. I think an objective entry on creeds would note that Jesus and the apostles apparently did without them, that creeds become significant following the union of church and state under Constantine, and that with their adoption begins the era of Christians persecuting one another for being unsound in doctrine.

I also think that an objective entry probably would note that Jews generally do not regard Judaism as a creedal faith.

Eric Alan Isaacson 02:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the article to note what I understand is the mainstream view, that Judaism is not a creedal faith, and to include in the discussion of creedless Christians references to the Unitarians, Quakers, and Restorationists, including the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Churches of Christ. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Creed (Christianity)

This article is heavily tilted toward Christian views on Creeds. Would it make sense to have a general article on creed (i.e., this one), and then a more specific article on Creeds in Christianity. That would allow the new article to have a clearer focus and broader depth of coverage, while reigning in the over-emphasis on Christian creeds in this article. Thoughts?? Athanasius • Quicumque vult 23:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I am new to this article, but upon review I agree that there is problem with the title. The current title, Creed, is definitional in scope, which is not acceptable for Wikipedia. What appears to be the original intent is Christian Creeds specifically, the title Creeds in Christianity is excellent. --^StormRider 20:17, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Having cross-posted at WP:X and WP:Religion, I will go ahead and start work on the more specific article next week, if there are no comments to the contrary. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 16:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. John Carter (talk) 19:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Creeds and confessions in Christianity

I have begun a draft of this page in my userspace. It is very much not ready for prime time - not references, I haven't followed up to check on my wikilinks, and it is very incomplete. I would welcome input and editing from others to help get it ready to move to the mainspace. Thanks so much. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 16:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Representation

Should not all the creeds be written out so that the readers can compare them and see them equally represented? Right now only the Apostles Creed is written out. Unconsumed (talk) 14:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

In all likelyhood, none of them probably should be. IMHO. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I would say that that looks much better and more consistent. Thanks. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 17:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Some changes

I have included subsections with references to other creeds that were in Wikipedia but were not included in the article, like the Athanasian creed. I have added a section about "non-religious creeds" and a section about "confessions of faith", which are the equivalent of creeds in many Protestant denominations. I have put "Christians without creeds" as a section instead of as a subsection, so it can be distinguished from the different creeds. Now the article has some logical order based on religion: firstly Christians creeds and equivalents (including non-creed Christian), secondly Jewish creeds, thirdly Islamic creeds, fourthly non-religious creeds).

I have deleted a paragraph that was not related to creeds, but with early Christianity. I have moved some sentences so the order is more logical. I have included the term "confession of faith" in the first section. I have linked the definition of "creed" with the article devoted to "statement of faith" and I have included in this definition the fact that a creed describes the beliefs shared by a religious community (as opposed to a personal statement of faith).

I have moved the subsection about the creed of Gregory of Tours to the "Gregory of Tours" article. This "creed" (in fact, a declaration of faith) does not belong here, because it is a personal confession of faith (instead of a collective one) and it is not authoritative for a religious community.

I have cleaned up the "See also" section so it does not repeat the links embedded in the article which refer to several creeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.192.206 (talk) 11:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

merge all --JFH (talk) 21:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

---

1. Confession of faith and Creed#Christian confessions of faith attempt to make a distinction between creeds and confessions of faith based on length without any citation. I don't think this is a common distinction, and I don't see the need for a separate article. Furthermore, some of the creeds here (such as Credo of the People of God) are as long as some Protestant confessions. The increase in length of creeds following the Reformation does not make them different things. If there is a problem with overemphasis on Christian confessions, perhaps we should split that out.
2. The Statement of faith lede does not make any distinction I can tell with Creed, as someone else has noticed at Talk:Statement of faith.
3. Articles of Faith is supposedly about the content (articles) of various creeds. I don't see why we would want a separate article for this. This seems like a clear FORK.

I propose they all be merged into this article. --JFHutson (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support. I already merged Doctrinal statement into Statement of faith last year, and see no reason not to go further as proposed. This is the longest page, so merge them into this article. After that there could be a separate discussion about whether to rename it e.g. as the more neutral and modern term statement of faith; but we can leave that until after the merger. – Fayenatic London 18:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
  The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Work list:

1. Confession of faith Done
2. Statement of faith Done
3. Articles of Faith Done

Orphaned references in Creed

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Creed's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Glasse":

• From ʿAqīdah: Glasse, Cyril (2001). New Encyclopedia of Islam (Revised Edition ed.). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. p. 105. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)
• From Mary (mother of Jesus): The new encyclopedia of Islam by Cyril Glassé, Huston Smith 2003 ISBN 0-7591-0190-6 page 296 [1]

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

"The most liberal of all religions"

"Unitarian Universalists, who practice probably the most liberal of all religions, do not share a creed."

There is a following reference, which I unfortunately don't have access to. What would be nice to verify is if "who practice probably the most liberal of all religions" comes from that referenced article. It appears exagerated, considering the other existing liberal religions, some of which are not even Christian denominations. 76.10.128.192 (talk) 22:48, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the promotional-tone claim, but have kept the entry. PaleoNeonate (talk) 11:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

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