Talk:Confucianism/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

"May have been..."

Saying that Confucius may have been a believer in Chinese folk religion is so wishy-washy that it contains no real content. Confucius may have been a convert to Judaism, but there is no evidence to support this idea. The content of the Analects suggests that Confucius was interested in shooing people away from folk religions. He says, "Respect the spirits, but keep away from them." That statement does not even prove that he accepted the existence of these spirits (or "ghosts"). All it establishes is that he knew that other people believed in them. He could be agnostic about them or even scoff them, but his public statement avoided any direct confrontation with what "everybody knows" about the spirit world.P0M (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The reference (Yang's Chinese Religion) did not connect Confucius and folk religion (a tricky concept in any case), so I removed it. ch (talk) 20:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

REmoval of Selishness

I removed the section Selfishness even though it was added in good faith. I hope User:江南吳越 will forgive me. The reason is 1) that it was based on a tertiary work rather than on a Reliable source. Wikipedia policy is to use recent secondary sources. 2) That the source was also more than one hundred years old and not written from a Neutral Point of View. I hope that User:江南吳越 will continue to contribute! ch (talk) 04:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Lead

I'm grateful of User:Patrick0Moran's expansion of the lead, detailing the history of Confucianism which has sorely been needed, but the lead is not the best place for something so descriptive. The content should be incorporated into the body paragraphs... perhaps under a new "History" section? In addition, although the content is factually correct, it requires the citation of reliable sources.--Teatimefortodd (talk) 15:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sexist language must be removed

Words indicating males where the author intends to refer to both females and males should be changed. Sexist language and thus implicit assumptions are not necessary or useful in this Wikipedia entry. In all cases, when humans, humanity, or people are discussed, the terms men, man, he, and him can be replaced with non-sexist alternatives. If the author is unable to write in such a manner, please feel free to contact me for assistance. Thanks much. 174.126.242.95 (talk) 03:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC) (Feb. 18, 2012)

Influence in Modern Times section

It's pretty weak and seems mainly to be complaints about state-run education, which has been the norm ever since the Kuomintang ran mainland China, and, above the level of primary education, was the norm from the middle 1st millennium onward in China. I'm going to replace most of this with a summary of the theory of a Confucian model of development, which holds that post-Confucian societies have had a legup in their efforts to industrialize due to their cultures' emphases on collective good and personal sacrifice. It's pretty controversial and I'll include a link to a criticism of it. What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 16:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Confucianism

Comparing people with bees and how they communicate, no single bee communicates on it's own, but speaks for all of their tribe. Confucianism can be compared with this fact. Bees dance75.203.249.176 (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• Does a person in a reliable source use this analogy? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Just how is a single bee imagined to communicate the message of the hive of bees or the species to anybody? It appears to me to be groundless regardless of who might have said it.P0M (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Confucianism in Korea and its role

Here is an op-ed...

• Power, John. "[VOICE Does Confucianism have a role in Korea today?]" The Korea Herald. February 1, 2012.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 January 2013

In the paragraph on criticism against Confucianism in Korea, the title of the book is poorly translated. Suggested translation in parentheses below:

wrote a criticism named (delete "Must Kill Confucius, This Nation will be Solved" and add "For the Country/Nation to Live, Confucius Must Die" or "Confucius Must Die For the Nation to Live") (공자가 죽어야 나라가 산다, gongjaga jug-eoya nalaga sanda) 192.35.46.1 (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Done Forgot to put name 16:18, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Expanded lede

I expanded the lede to give more info on the middle period when Confucianism was not in fact the official doctrine and mention the challenge of Buddhism and Daoism, which were absorbed into Neo-Confucianism. Also on the 20th century. Since this is the lede, I didn't add references, but I could easily do so if it seems useful. Also, I didn't know how to correct the Juergensmeyer citation, which should be to "Harold J. Berman, "Faith and Law in a Multicultural World," in etc etc. That is, I don't know how to amend the template to accept this information. Glad for ideas on any of this. ch (talk) 20:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Strange way to return to life

The text currently says: "In the late twentieth century, some people credited Confucianism with the rise of the East Asian economy and revived both in the People's Republic and abroad."

Break off the qualifications and it says: "People revived." I think the intention of the person who wrote this sentence was to assert that Confucianism was revived by some people. Religions sometimes promise a rebirth. As far as I know, Confucianism makes no such promise.P0M (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Buddhism

"The White Lotus Teachings in Chinese Religious History", p. 62[1] says the opposite, and in fact, buddhism was formed before confucianism. So i removed it, thanks. Capitals00 (talk) 07:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a complete non sequitur. The text you deleted is not in any way contradicted by this source, which also does not say "the opposite" of what the text says. All it said was that "people often see Confucian ethics as a complementary guideline for other ideologies and beliefs, including democracy, Marxism, capitalism, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism", which is uncontoversial. Which "came first" is irrelevant to the point. Paul B (talk) 20:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

But it seems more like that confucian has inspired buddhism, when it hasn't, the "source" is not even available for discovering either, thus i saw no problem in removing it, because the book, page. 149 speaks about the popularity "that was raised for both buddhism and taoism by the confucian revival" this book came from 1962, not 1992. And my source, which is about buddhism inspiring "neo-confucian" is mentioned in the source, also adding that "however much it tried to disasociate itself from both"(included taoism), it's mentioned though, but the information that i had removed is indeed misleading, and the source is misinterpreted. Capitals00 (talk) 04:31, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

No-one ever said or implied that Conficianism inspired Buddhism, and in no way can the quoted sentence be interpreted to imply that. Confucianism didn't "inspire" Marxism or Christianity either. Of course versions of Buddhism in China were influenced by Confucianism, as, indeed, were versions of Marxism. Your source refers to a form of "neo-Confucianism" that was inflected by Buddhist ideas. None of this is remotely surprising or unusual. Belief systems influence each-other all the time. What the different dates of the publications have to do with anything I can't imagine. I guess you are implying that one is more recent scholarship, but since they don't contradict one another at all that's irrelevant. Paul B (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Point is, that the source is misinterpreted, so the problem ends right there, other sources, regarding marxism, christianity, islam, and democracy are properly added though. The book "Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism, Christianity, and Chinese Culture" suggests that both confucianism and buddhism are independent faiths, and that's what i assume as well. Capitals00 (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Confucianism is not a "faith" in the sense of a dogmatic religion. It's a set of moral principles. No one denies that it is distinct from Buddhism, just as it is distinct from all the other belefs listed. The point is that it is not perceived to be inconsistent with versions of them. Paul B (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes but "contemporary guideline" is too much, as it's similarities/influence on other listed beliefs has been given already, but not buddhism. Capitals00 (talk) 15:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Buddhism does not predate Confucianism and Confucianism does not predate Buddhism, both developed independently around the 6th century BC. Mistaking Neo-Confucianism with early Confucianism to imply that Buddhism predates Confucianism is grossly inaccurate, Neo-Confucianism arose in the 9th century AD, fifteen centuries after the founding of Confucianism during the Spring and Autumn Period. But like Paul B said, all of this is a non-sequitor. The sentence does not imply that Confucianism led to the development of Buddhism, anymore than Confucianism led to the development of democracy, a Greek invention, Christianity, a Middle Eastern religion, or Marxism, an ideology that began in Germany. It's a statement about contemporary beliefs, and how modern East Asia has merged Confucian principles with other belief systems from around the world. The synthesis of religious and philosophical ideas has historically been frequent. Greco-Buddhism merged Buddhism with Hellenistic culture, after the military campaigns of Alexander the Great introduced Greek influences to India.--Teatimefortodd (talk) 23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

水

There are some articles and internet sites claiming this and 囍 are "symbols of Confucianism". Preeetty sure that's not the case at all (double happiness has nothing to do with Confucianism beyond also coming from China; water's much more of a Taoist image), but kindly join and discuss here. — LlywelynII 05:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit request, 21 November 2013

change remonstrating to demonstrating in the last half of the second paragraph in the section on loyalty.

Byrds00 (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: remonstrate is correct. (That exact word is used in the Englsih translation of the Mencius citation -- the second citation in that footnote.) --Stfg (talk) 22:38, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Most of these philosophy Wikipedia entries are horribly written.

I really feel sorry for the majority of people who first start out by looking at wikipedia, because honestly most people will be turned off because all the philosophy entries in here are really badly written, they will end up discouraged and confused. Even when I attempt to make entries to clarify a subject like Platos symposium (platonic love and platos theory of forms) I get unknowledgable editors who think the sophist entries are whats important? Really?

I swear you can get better stuff on youtube, where someone who actually knows what they're talking about can explain most of whats in wikipedia philosophy sections in a few minutes, instead of the uninformed, unorganized badly written stuff thats out there now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.48.140 (talk) 07:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

the gentleman

if i understand what's intended, "cultivate humanity..." should probably be "cultivate humaneness". 63.142.146.194 (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistency

Plotinus' Neoplatonism is/was a religion, but is not mentioned as such on the Neoplatonism page.

The Chinese did not have a word for "religion" until the 18th century, imported from Japan, yet Ruism is said to be a religion. The nations influenced by Kong Fuzi are some of the most secular nations on the planet, for crying out loud.

If talking about the heavens and things like that makes Ruism a religion, is not Platonism a religion as well? I would rule out Kantianism as a religion on grounds that it is not a religion into itself, but a part of the Christian faith.

It is not uncommon for Westerners traveling in the Far East to attribute local customs and traditions to religion, even when they have nothing to do with religion. But certainly, a dictionary should be a notch or two above that.

This smells like exotism to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 20:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The use of an English word to describe the social constructs produced in a different culture and using a different language is frequently going to be problematical. Naming a religion after a founding figure is also problematical. Jesus did not think of himself as founding a new religion, yet we ended up with Christianity (or maybe a bunch of them). Confucius did not think of himself as anything but an elaborater of early Zhou dynasty ideas. Mencius followed him but did not seek to make him anything more than a great teacher. Later on, however, he was sometimes officially recognized as a 神 shen, a "god" but more in the sense of Jupiter or Saturn or perhaps a deified Roman emperor. On top of that, the early ideas that he and Mencius took as the core of their thought clearly were religious. The religious texts are found in pre-Confucian documents. Of course the Chinese don't call this religion 孔子主義 (Confucius ideology) or 孔子教 (Confucius religion). So they don't create the confusion of naming the religion after someone who came much later.

A good way to at least get a start on seeing the pre-Confucian religion is to get a copy of Wing-tsit Chan's A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy and start reading through the early Zhou materials. There was a god. That god needed to be respected. There were sacrifices to be performed to that god. That god had as one of his most important (to humans at least) functions the determination of when a corrupt dynasty needed to be ended and what individual would become the founding ruler of a new dynasty. Most of the ceremonial stuff falls to the sovereign to perform, so it is a religion that is less intrusive in the daily lives of ordinary people. But the moral responsibilities once laid upon ruler somehow came to permeate the entire culture and became the rules by which ordinary people lived and motivated how they behaved toward others. (You can see some of this in the teachings of Confucius.)

教 means "the teachings of," so, e.g., 道教 is "the teachings of the (religious) Daoists." It doesn't mean "religion" in the sense of a binding. But arguing from the meanings of words in English and roughly equivalent words in Chinese doesn't really have anything to do with the character of the beliefs of the Chinese and those of Jews, Christians, or whtever. The basic idea of the Chinese religion associated with Confucius is a warning to the king or emperor: "God will get you if you do not treat his people right!" That idea carried down in practice until at least the 1970s. See FitzGeralds Fire in the Lake. The jig was up for South Vietnam when Diem lost the "Mandate of Heaven," the command from God that he and his descendants should rule the nation. Once the people made that assessment, FitzGerald contends, no replacement ruler could be grafted on by the United States or anybody else.P0M (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I am well aware of the problems of dealing with different cultures. And the Western culture is perhaps less equipped to do that than any other culture, since Western culture is still virtually synonymous with Christian thought.

My main point is Ruism contra Neoplatonism. Ruism is frequently referred to as a religion, whereas Neoplatonism is not. You cannot ask of all people to be consistent, but you can of a dictionary. If one is identified as a religion, the other has to.

The biggest problem with Confucianism may just be the name. It comes with a lot of baggage, just like the word "Oriental." We no longer refer to people of Kong Fuzi's race as Orientals for that reason. Confucianism along fortune cookies can actually be seen as part of Western Orientalism. We should do the same with Confucianism as we did with "Oriental." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 14:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Confucian idea of Universal Brotherhood or a pan-racial Great Commonwealth

confucian universal brotherhood or a "Great Commonwealth"

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y36aAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false

Tianxia yijia 天下一家 all under heave in one family

http://books.google.com/books?id=qpRowjjUFLQC&pg=PA122&dq=man+han+yijia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iG4wVNrxBY7CsASF1oGgAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=man%20han%20yijia&f=false

The quoted material below is public domai. They can be used as quotes while the above sources can be used as referencea.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PwAbVyBZeR4C&pg=PA202#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=E7g3AQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=6SouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=k8hrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title Surname Book and Racial History: A Compilation and Arrangement of Genealogical and Historical Data for Use by the Students and Members of the Relief Society of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Author Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. General Board of the Relief Society Editor Susa Young Gates Publisher The Society, 1918 Original from the University of Wisconsin - Madison Digitized Aug 6, 2008 Length 576 pages Subjects Names, Personal Utah

"In the genealogical tables of China, much attention is given to the line of the male descent, particularly the stem, or hereditary line; but very little attention to the female line, it being understood, if no record to the contrary, that the female is of the same family and naturally and surely traces back to the original stem in any event; being a matter of a certain number of generations removed. In closing these somewhat discursive remarks upon the family life and genealogy of the Chinese people, I am reminded that in the last analysis all the people of the earth are really members of one family, and I cannot better close than by repeating the words of Confucius: "The People of the Four Seas, i. e.. the people of all the world, are all one brotherhood." And also he said: "There is only one universal Family in the world." And again he said: "In the Golden Age, men will treat all elderly people as their parents, all young persons as their children, and all of equal age as brothers and sisters." To the wise man there is, in all this broad and immense world, "but a single family," governed by One Supreme Intelligence. When this Family recognizes this Truth, and in direct and real sincerity practices the few and perfectly simple rules of benevolent morality as taught by our ancient sage, then will it be an "enlightened, civilized" family."

.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hswPjsESizYC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title Correspondence respecting the alleged existence of Chinese slavery in Hong Kong: presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty Volume 3185 of C (Series) (Great Britain. Parliament) Author Great Britain. Parliament Edition reprint Publisher Printed by G.E. Eyre and W. Spottiswoode for H.M.S.O., 1882 Length 248 pages

"Whilst thus the idea of absolute rights inherent in men, and the recognition of the absolute equality of every human being, has been slowly and gradually evolved in the West, and thereby procured, in the course of ages, the virtual abolition of slavery, we find an entirety different development of the same ideas in China. That flower and fruit of modern Christian civilization, the practical realisation of the consciousness of the common fatherhood of God and the universal brotherhood of man, as the heirloom of every human creature, ha3 been the very seedcorn and root from which the Chinese social organism has sprung up. That Heaven and Earth arc the common parent of all human creatures, that all men within the four seas (i.e. all people that on the earth do dwell) arc brethren, is the keynote of the religious, social, and political teaching of the most ancient Chinese classics. In that ancient period of Chinese history which is still looked upon as the classical norm and guide for the present and future, the Chow dynasty (founded 1122 B.C.), slavery was abolished in every form except that of the condemned criminal. Although slavery was re-established by the Han dynasty (3rd century B.C.), which developed the patriot potestas to such an extent as to give parents relation of hereditary slaves to wealthy Cantonese clans, under whose protection they live, and to whom they pay portion of their earnings. There is, however, nothing in his outward appearance or condition to distinguish such a slave from a free person. Although I spent the greater portion of fifteen years in some inland districts of the Canton Province, I have never to my knowledge seen such an hereditary slave. I am told that generally only the nearest acquaintances know a slave to be such, and that the only outward distinction of an hereditary slave is the rule made by custom, that on New Year's Day, when even the poorest free man, who goes about barefoot all the year through, dons shoes and stockings, the slave has to wear wooden clogs. I am sure there is not one such hereditary slave in Hong Kong. But suppose one came here, and were told that he is entirely free on British soil, it would make no difference to him whatever; for he looks upon his master as a refuge to fall back upon in case of sickness, and anyhow he treats his relation to his master as a family relation, and views his adherence to it as a matter of honour. Besides, any such slave has always a chance of purchasing his freedom, and if once affranchised his descendants in the third generation can compete r for official honours. This system of slavery, whilst comparatively rare in the Canton Province, is more frequently practised in the Fohkien Province, where by custom the third generation of an hereditary slave regains freedom. But the principal seat of this slavery is in the agrarian districts of Shantung, and most especially in the Hwui-chau, Ning-kwoh, and Ch'i-chou Prefectures of the Ngan-hwui Province. It is also said to exist to a large extent among the fishermen of the Cheh-kiang Province. But in all these cases the slave is a member of the family to which he belongs, which is answerable for his life to the State, and the law permits all such slaves to redeem themselves by money payment, when the contract which restores liberty to the slave is to be stamped and recorded in Court."

http://books.google.com/books?id=kgCDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

The subjects of the Flowery Kingdom do not call their country "China," but Chung Kwoh, or "Middle Kingdom." It is incorrect to say that this is because the people believe that China lies in the middle of the earth. Chang Chih-tung rightly says that the name is derived from "The Doctrine of the Middle," which is an important section of their canonical "Four Books." The principles of the Chinese do not go beyond, and do not fall short of, what is just and right. The " Middle Kingdom " is therefore so called because its organization was supposed to be perfect and complete. We Americans proudly imagine that our country is E pluribus UNUM.—Translator

China's only hope By Zhidong Zhang, Samuel Isett Woodbridge

Rajmaan (talk) 22:59, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Feminism and Confucianism

Feminism and Confucianism have stood as two groups for a long time. Feminism critiques Confucianism because it oppressed women by depriving them of rights since they had to obey men and had few rights to make decisions themselves. However, the cooperation of both group are still possible and encouraged by many scholars in modern century.Feminist can challenge Confucianism as well as Confucianism can expand the horizons of Feminism.Confucianism focuses on the topic of people and family.It tells how significant family can be to the country,which corresponds to Feminist’s purpose of caring individuals.What’s more, Confucianism’s idea of “three bonds” and “ren,yi,li,zhi,xin” also shows a progress in establish morality,as well as building a new-world ideal women.”Confucianism be our point of entry into the new world of a hybrid feminist theory in transnational feminist discourse" Although there are still a long and hard way to go, the mixture of Confucianism and Feminism is in exploration.

References

Confucianism's influence on women daily life

Confucianism obviously has a great impact on women life and the impact doesn’t vanish as time went by. The positive part is that, the influence is also changing through out the history. In ancient time, people paid more attention on the restrictions whereas nowadays, women focus more on how it could help them to behave better. In ancient world, Confucianism set moral standards for the world and raise it higher for women. A lot of women rights were restrict at that time, although there is no such thing called human rights. The idea that educations and jobs were mostly offered to men has the same idea of women rights been taken. (Kim)Obedience is another major concept that will always be linked with ancient women. For their whole life, they have been asked to obey to the important men in their life including father, husband and son. (Kristeva)Their daily life is mainly taking care of the whole family, doing housework,cleaning, cooking or so. This is pretty much the duty of women and the life for a common women in ancient world. It can’t be deny that women nowadays has a better environment of living than ancient times. Also, they have learned to take advantage of Confucianism by following the idea of behave well. The sayings in the Analects taught people how to become a Junzi.(De Bary) Originally, it talks about men, but women apply that to them as well in order to improve their behavior. It is true that some of the women still play a role as housewife these days, but they are only a small part of the female population. The majority of women do have a job that requires them to work several hours in a certain amount of time and usually on a daily bases. (Wei)They take the idea from Analects learn and think at the same time, trying to become a better person, and behave well during both work time and after work at home. As a major thought in Asian , Confucianism plays an important role in people’s life. Women are definitely influenced by Confucianism and it could be seen in their daily life. Alone the time line, Confucianism has improve their idea and so does it’s effect on women life. In today’s world, women are getting more positive impact from the Confucianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freya0929 (talk • contribs) 19:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Women in Confucianism

Foot-Binding was a widely practice custom within Chinese society and began somewhere between the Tang and the Song Dynasty. The second ruler of the Tang dynasty, Li Yu is said to have “compelled his favourite Yaoniang to bind her feet so as to dance on the image of a large lotus flower.” This custom was first common among the aristocracy and then later spread throughout society. Mothers would often start this practice on their daughters before they were five years old by bending their toes under the bottom of their foot, and then bandaging them. The foot-binding process would often last ten to fifteen years, the end result was high immobility. Tang painters and poets had high regards for the bound foot and considered the cripples foot the most erotic part of the female body. This is seen through their cultural practices – “Tang painters depict a woman’s genitals, but never a naked crippled foot.” The crippled foot was so sacred it was meant for the husband’s eyes alone, which lead to the creation of a “special stocking, whose style changes according to fashion, must cover the foot, even during sexual intercourse, if servants or other witnesses are present.” This practice functioned more than anything as a means to impress a woman’s in-laws, as the crippled foot would function as “an undeniable proof of her capacity to suffer and obey.”

The mother-in-law played in an essential role in a woman's lives. A woman was respected based on how obedient she was towards her mother-in-law. A Pattern for Women, says: “If a daughter-in-law (who follows the wishes of her parents-in-law) is like an echo and a shadow, how could she not be praised?” While women are often powerless within the Confucianism discourse, if a woman were to give birth to a son, she will ultimately become a mother-in-law giving her authority over her daughter-in-law, and therefore over her son’s household, in many ways (i.e., childbearing). This sentiment is captured best, in Pattern for Women: “Whenever the mother-in-law says, ‘Do not do that,’ and if what she says is right, unquestionably the daughter-in-law obeys. Whenever the mother-in-law says, ‘Do that,’ even if she says is wrong, still the daughter-in-law submits unfailingly to the command.” Akim48 (talk) 19:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Feminist Confucianism and Confucian Feminism

Tu weiming states in his book that Confucianism is still valid in modern society and can be a useful pattern for Asian countries. However, feminist criticizes Confucianism as an eater of women by setting unfair rules on women. Feminism is criticized for its misunderstanding on women’s oppression in the third countries studying in western eyes.

Both Confucianism and feminism have their limitation and learning each other can help them develop both because both of them have advanced ideas to develop themselves. Rosenlee carries out a project to connect Confucianism and feminism by combining the advanced ideas from both to develop a new idea. For instance, yin-yang or nei-wai is the theory of Confucianism, which has somewhat women’s oppression. Rosenlee keeps the advanced idea of this notion and brings positive idea from feminism to develop a new idea based on this, which does not keep the women’s oppression. The new idea of Italic textnei-wai in Confucianism can help Confucianism walk further. Confucianism has been criticized strictly for its women's oppression by limitating women's rights, which stopped it entering to western world. Learning the advanced idea of feminism can help Confucianism develop better.

References

Tu, Weiming. “Tasan Lecture #3: A Confucian Response to the Feminist Critique.” Korea, November 2001.

Kristeva, Julia. (1977) 1986. “Confucius –An Eater of Women.” In About Chinese Women, 66-99. New York: M. Boyars.

Mohanty, Chandra Talpade. 1988. “Under Western Eyes: Feminist Scholarship and Colonial Discourses.” Feminist Review 30: 61-88.

Rosenlee, Li-Hsiang Lisa. 2010. “A feminist appropriation of Confucianism.” In Confucianism in Context. eds., Wonsuk Chang and Leah Kalmanson, 175-190. Albany: State University of New York Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranzhang (talk • contribs) 01:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Confucian influences on women’s daily

Confucian influence on women’s daily life through time can be divided into the following periods including Before Confucianism, Ancient times, Post-ancient times and Modern society.

Before Confucianism refers the time when Confucianism does not form and is adapted in the society. Women at that time can have more women rights. For instance, before Confucianism is adapted, in Korea women and men can bather together in a river and remarriage is allowed in the society.[1] Ancient times mean the era when Confucianism is formed and gradually becomes the orthodox and reminds the status of orthodox. This is the era when women’s oppression reaches the highest level. Affected by Confucianism, the society sets many rules on women. For instance, women can only stay in-door and can not go out for social activities without permission of men in home. Women can not remarry to other men although her husband is dead while men can have the right. [1]Women are admired to have no education and their main job is bear children and looked down when they bear daughters. Men can have several wives while a woman can have one and her rights will be harmed as a wife it she is concubine.[3]

Post-ancient times mean the era when new idea comes to the society and arouses some criticism on the women’s oppression. In China, this era starts from the May 4th Movement. Women start to increase their social activities and foot-binding is prohibited. Monogamy is popular in society protecting women’s rights in marriage. Women are encouraged to go to school to receive education. Confucian influence on women at this time has reduced and new advanced idea from western countries affects the society more.

Modern society means the Confucianism are not the orthodox any more. In China, this era can start from the establishment of China. Although Confucianism is not the orthodox in society any more and women’s oppression is not strict as before, Confucian impact on women’s daily life is still strong because this is has been somewhat a culture. For instance, in today’s society, women are still admired to bear a son. Women are still regarded as out comer of the new family. Women without education are still seen as considerable in some remote countries. Fortunately, the situations above are better than the past. In modern society, Confucianism also has positive impact on women’s daily life. For instance, the self-cultivation encourages women to acquire higher education degree. [3] Generally speaking, the women’s oppression of Confucianism has reduced greatly but still exists in some areas and its positive impacts on women are becoming more.

References

1. Kim, Yung-Chung. 1976. Hanʼguk yŏsŏngsa = Women of Korea: a history from ancient times to 1945: an abridged and translated edition. Seoul: Ewha Womans University Press. p 83-86.

2. Lee, Peter H., Sources of Korean Tradition. New York: Columbia University Press, 1997.p 317.

3. Tu, Weiming. “Tasan Lecture #3: A Confucian Response to the Feminist Critique.” Korea, November 2001.para11.

Oh Geez

The problem of second-rate academics trying to impress one another at Wikipedia is becoming a major issue and taking a valuable resource down the toilet.

Please write articles that the general public can read, and where they can quickly and easily grasp the essentials of a topic. The general public doesn't need to know that Confucianism is also known as ruism in the first paragraph! What are you thinking?

Academics have specialized texts that they can go to. There's no need to write for them here.

You will possibly be asking what the specific problem are. If so, that is the problem. If you don't know how to write for the general public then you shouldn't be writing here. --50.68.151.56 (talk) 23:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2015

Please insert this sentence at the end of the first paragraph of the subsection "modern times": Indeed, the influence of Confucianism on Chinese political and juridical structures is still visible nowadays.

References

91.182.199.7 (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Mdann52 (talk) 19:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Mass edit and reworking

To be honest huge sections of this need to be reworked entirely by actual scholars. For one thing, there are very few scholars in Asian Studies who do not consider Confucianism a religion. I'll make plans to go over this whole article with another Asian History scholar over the summer, but if anyone has actually studied the topic extensively, redoing the introduction would be a good start. For reference, I'm completing research now on education and ethics in East Asia for an MA in Asian Studies and I'll sucker an expert in Chinese history to work with me. We're not Confucian scholars but we have enough general scholarly expertise in China (him) and Asian Ethics (myself) that we ought to be able to clean it up. If there is anyone else with academic expertise that would like to assist post here, I'd love the help particularly from an East Asian religion scholar, but this really needs fixing, parts of it are damn irresponsible and reek of Western bias/Orientalism.

50.138.7.92 (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2016 (UTC)Randall

This article contains very little information about the Confucian tradition

This article contains very little information about the Confucian tradition and more information about what historical individuals in the past wrote about the tradition.--WindWalk55555 (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

etymology

i read that "Confucius" was an anglicization of Kǒng-fūzǐ. Maybe should someone tell to some ignorant people that anglophones were not always the first to discover things and that at the time of the first mention of the name of the philosopher (i.e. Middle Ages), the LINGVAFRANCA in Europe was Latin, so "Confucius" is actually a latinisation of the mandarin reading of the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.152.141.105 (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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"spirits or gods"

The part in the sentence in the lead on religion and humanism that says human's moral nature "unfolds through an appropriate respect for the spirits or gods (shén) of the world" should be removed. This appears to be one person's interpretation of "respect ghosts and spirits/gods but keep them at a distance" (敬鬼神而远之) and conflating it with other interpretations. I'm not sure that it should be given as a generally accepted understanding of the saying since others would interpret it differently, particularly when Confucius is commonly said to be "atheistic" or "disinterested in the supernatural". (Keith Knapp, "Confucian Views of the Supernatural", Early Medieval China: A Sourcebook). I'm sure it has been it's been frequently analyzed and there are many opinions on this saying, but one interpretation should not be given as the accepted consensus view. Hzh (talk) 10:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Yue (樂)

Shouldn't yue (樂, music) be added as one of the fundamental Confucian precepts, along with ren, li, zhi, de, yi, etc.? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 05:08, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

This article should clearly state that Confucianism status as a religion is disputed

Rather than avoiding the topic, we should clearly say there's no consensus on whether Confucianism is a religion or not. I've done so through a note with two reliable sources; I presume few more refs wouldn't go amiss there, and people may want to rewrite the quotes into something better (but I'd recommend keeping them in the body through |quote= parameter). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Probably it would be better to explain that three things are going on: (1) There was a view of 天 tiān as a god that existed long before Confucius, that was associated with the political philosophy espoused by the early Zhou rulers (particularly the Duke of Zhou), and that continues to this day. (2) Confucius revered the Duke of Zhou and explicitly took it upon himself to support and explain the political philosophy that guided the early Zhou rulers, including such things as the doctrine of 天命 tiān mīng (the Mandate of Heaven). That religious view has continued down to the present and was (allegedly) active in the fall of the Diem regime and attempted (non-communist) successor regimes in Vietnam. (3) Independent of what Confucius, Mencius, and other people in that mainstream group thought, other people tried to make Confucius into a god. I don't know whether there are any statistics or any studies that otherwise show how influential this attempt was during the relatively brief period wherein it had some kind of institutional presence, whether anybody actually prayed to Confucius, etc. If being a "god" constitutes the foundation of a religion, was then Zhang Fei the center of a religion?

What people call "Confucianism" today is probably not limited to the views expressed by Confucius, and probably is not limited to respect/veneration for him as a "holy man." My understanding of Confucianism is that it is a somewhat amorphous collection (probably varying from individual to individual and with no pope to define a "true core" of belief) of beliefs regarding 天，ethical values that proceed from the early Zhou founders, amplifications of these values and rational discussions about why they are so made by Confucius and particularly by Mencius, and probably come accretion of totalitarian ideas or at least authoritarian views taken over by osmosis from Xun Zi and the Legalists. So it's all a bit messy. It's also extremely powerful because it suffuses the culture, provides things that "everybody knows is true" because everybody has been enculturated to the same general take on how best to be a human being, as hard to challenge as it is to punch the wind, etc. P0M (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Confucian(儒家) is an academic faction. From the first century AD to the third century AD, the Chinese emperor transformed the The faction into a national religion called "Confucianism"(儒教). The religious leader was the emperor and respected Confucius as his mentor. The Chinese believe that their emperor is Son of Heaven, Therefore, a religious ritual "sacrifice to heaven(祭天)" was born, Also build temples for people who contribute to the country

Confucianism restricts various norms to include the inauguration of obtaining orthodox power for the next emperor. Men's adult ceremony, student entrance ceremony. If there is no ceremony, it will not be recognized, Have a legal meaning

confucian do not worship God because they are scholars.But Confucianism has, Their god called 「昊天上帝」including having places of worship and clergy.They adore the saints and heroes and ancestors of the past, the stars on the sky and the mountains and rivers on the ground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by --Dyer-wolf (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)Dyer-wolf (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Confucianism does not worship god. In fact, the ritual praying on the ancestor and natural law are reminders of humbleness, to prevent one become arrogant when they gain too much wealth or power. So it is true that Confucianism is not religion. The modern study of Confucianism philosophy renders most writing of this wiki article obsolete. Tan S.L. (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

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Confucianism isn't sexist, it just considers women inferior to men?

The section under criticism regarding Confucian attitudes towards women starts off pretty good but the paragraph which attempts to respond to accusations of sexism by mentioning historic Confucian texts which emphasized women as being subservient to men is just baffling. How is that supposed to do anything but support the accusations of sexism? Specifically the third paragraph in that subsection, the one that also has multiple cites to the same source. 108.174.175.69 (talk) 03:19, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that Confucian texts say very little about women, and what is assumed to be Confucian attitude towards women (e.g. whether they are inferior or not) may just be an older tradition or Neo-Confucian opinions that may not be necessarily Confucian. Given that there are few definitive statements about women in Confucian texts, Confucian position on women is open to interpretations. For example, some may choose to emphasize the meritocratic principle of Confucianism to suggest that both men and women are capable of fine achievement (Ban Zhao for example argued that both sons and daughters need to be educated). By choosing your arguments, you can suggest that feminism and Confucianism are not mutually exclusive. However, you do need to explain away some of the very few statements in Confucian texts about women (for example, the statement about women and xiaoren, and Confucius ignoring the achievements of women that would suggest that he did not hold women in high esteem) with what may be considered acceptable arguments. Hzh (talk) 14:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - RPM SP 2022 - MASY1-GC 1260 200 Thu

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Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2022

Confucianism did NOT arise in response to Taoism. In fact, it was the opposite. Please change "Confucianism developed in response to Buddhism and Taoism and was reformulated as Neo-Confucianism." to "Confucianism developed in response to Buddhism and was reformulated as Neo-Confucianism."

National Geographic states otherwise: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/chinese-religions-and-philosophies "Taoism (also called Daoism) is a Chinese religion that developed a bit after Confucianism, around two thousand years ago. In contrast to Confucianism, Taoism is mainly concerned with the spiritual elements of life, including the nature of the universe."

Even the Wikipedia article on Taoism directly contradicts this sentiment: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Taoism "Many scholars believe Taoism arose as a countermovement to Confucianism." 75.166.174.69 (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Loafiewa (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems rather too hasty. The sentence refers to the Tang dynasty, which started in the 7th century (and the response to Daoism and Buddhism happened in 8th and 9th century before it became the dominant ideology during the Song dynasty). Whether Daoism developed after Confucianism is irrelevant, because that sentence refers to event after Daoism came into existence. That sentence is about the development of Neo-Confucianism, removing it mangled that sentence. Buddhism also came into China after Confucianism was already established, so it doesn't make sense to remove Daoism and not Buddhism. Hzh (talk) 10:45, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2022

There is a misspelling of obedience as "obdedience" in the fourth line under the heading, "Contradiction with modernist values." Slightexag15 (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Loafiewa (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

This article has a multitude of issues.

• 1)- Inline tags
  • a)-"Citation needed" (Feb 2021 and Aug 2022) The B-class criteria #1 states; The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. As maintenance I have reassessed the article.
  • b)- weasel words. Criteria #4 states; The article is reasonably well-written..
• 2)- Lead: The rational behind why it was felt the bulk of the article needed to be presented in eight paragraphs in lead section might be interesting.
• 3)- Citing sources: There are several areas that are lacking inline citations that include sentences, paragraphs, and subsections. A perplexing problem is material added after an inline citation. This can be seen as original research.
• 4)- See also: A few links in this section can be beneficial but too many are a distraction.
• 5)- "Translations of texts attributed to Confucius". There actually are no such named appendices. Possibly add some more information and use it as a subsection under "Further Reading".
• 6)- Nine entries in the "External links" section. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)