Talk:Collet Dobson Collet

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Birthyear

Hi User:Verbcatcher Yvonne Kapp 1976, p. 269 has also 1813. Oxford Dictionary has surely not check birth entry! So 1 January 1813 is the correct date. The family own many papers and letters. Therfore they were more reliable..WhoisWhoME (talk) 10:41, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are more mistakes in the English version. See German article WhoisWhoME (talk) 11:01, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WhoisWhoME: the Collett Family History website is self-published, by Brian Collett who presumably is a member of the family. WP:SELFPUBLISH says such sources are "largely not acceptable as sources". Also see Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works. As well as being self-published this source is not independent. I accept that a date of birth is unlikely to be affected by personal bias, but other material in this source could be influenced by a tendency, conscious or not, to stress the achievements of family members and underplay any scandals.

The family history may have obtained its date from a WP:PRIMARY source, such as a birth certificate, an entry in a register of births, or a letter from the parents. The website does not specify its source. The Oxford researchers may well have seen the same primary sources and decided to adjust the date. For example, the authorities might have delayed registering births that occurred on new year's eve.

We should always give priority to reliable, professionally published sources. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is a highly reputable source. I will resist changing the date from that in the ODNB unless a better source is provided. This might be a recent biography published by a mainstream publisher, or a recent article in a peer-reviewed academic journal. The ODNB article is dated "2004-2016".

You mention "Yvonne Kapp 1976, p. 269". Is this the book cited in the Eleanor Marx article? As this book predates the ODNB article I would still give the ODNB priority.

I suggest that we add a footnote to state that there are conflicting sources for the date of birth, citing Kapp. I did this in the Ray Milland article where there is a similar issue. As well as informing readers this might discourage other editors from making good-faith changes.

Neither the German nor the Dutch Wikipedia articles give a source for DCD's date of birth. Comparing the English and German articles is a useful technique to identify questionable claims. However, you should not make changes to the English article solely on the basis of the German article. You should follow up the source cited in the German article (or other reliable sources) before making a change. Do not rely on another editor to have checked a source, you should not cite a source or rely on its content unless you have personally inspected the source and confirmed that it supports the related content.

If you have evidence that a claim is inaccurate but you do not have adequate evidence to change the text then you can tag the claim with {{Dubious}}, or {{Disputed inline}}, or a related tag, and raise the issue on the talk page. If something is clearly wrong or misleading then delete it, with an explanation in the edit summary or on the talk page.

The ODNB is protected by a paywall. If you are a UK resident then you can probably access online using a public library membership, otherwise you can apply for access through The Wikipedia Library, see Wikipedia:OUP.

Regards, Verbcatcher (talk) 20:43, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguments are weak. Please have a look on Clara Collet, Henry Haines Collet: The Family of Collett. Memorials relating to various branches of the family with pedigrees & accompanying biographical notes, together with miscellaneous data. Compiled & arranged. 4 Vol. London 1935. (Typoscript) : British Library. Humanities and Social Sciences, St Pancras Reading Rooms. Shelfmark 9907.t.30. That is the base of the external link. Regards --WhoisWhoME (talk) 11:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to be a primary source, and it is not cited in the article. Is it available online? You may think my argument supporting the 1812 date is weak, but my argument concerning the necessity of citing reliable sources and avoiding self-published and primary sources is strong, and follows English Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Have you read the ODNB article? It is perhaps misleading to call this a "dictionary", its article on CDC is considerably longer and more detailed that the Wikipedia article. Verbcatcher (talk) 12:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that a daughter does not know, when her father was born? Miles Taylor is not a specialist in the biography of C. D. Collet. Regards--WhoisWhoME (talk) 20:49, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You do not appear to have given any evidence that CDC's daughter is the source for the 1813 date. Sourcing her statement to a self-published website would be inadequate. However, even if there were a good source for CDC's daughter's statement, in my view this should not overrule the ODNB biography.

Presumably the ODNB article author is Miles Taylor (historian), who appears to be an excellent source for this. However, it is possible that he has made a mistake. If you have good evidence for the 1813 date then I suggest you contact the ODNB, or Professor Taylor at the University of York. I have contacted other "authoritative sources" about errors, and they have changed their websites accordingly. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]