Talk:Coat of arms of Scotland

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Untitled

NB — there was formerly an article titled "Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland"; it included information both on the old royal arms and on the current Scottish version of the UK arms. On August 15 2005, these two articles were split off from one another, to Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland and Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland; the edit history before that date has remained with the latter article. The contents of the old talk page have been copied to both new pages.

Discussion from old "Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland" article

AIUI, this is the not the royal coat of arms of Scotland, but rather the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom as used in Scotland according to Scottish heraldry (just as the arms at Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom are the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom as used in England and Wales according to English heraldry). Marnanel 18:16, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately the images I had of the Royal Arms are corrupted. As soon as I have new images I will upload them so they can be compared.

I left an image of the Royal Banner just to whet your appetite :) --garryq 11:51, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cleanup

Someone that knows something about heraldry needs to write an opening section to this article that explains what the difference between these two versions are, and what each are used for. The current opening "Since the uniting of the crowns of England and Scotland..." is quite abrupt. --JW1805 22:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

page move

If there's no objection, I'll be moving this page to "Royal Coat of Arms for Scotland" in line with my recent edits. Doops | talk 08:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NB — this was obviated by a move, made the next day, to "Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (for use in Scotland)".

=New discussion= History - Kingdom of Scotland

Philostorgius writes: I don't know of any Rolls of Arms from the 12th century. The earliest roll in the possession of the College of Arms is St. George's Roll of 1285, I believe [MS Vincent 164 ff.1–21b], which does blazon Alexander III's (1241-86) arms as: Or a lion rampant a double tressure flory counter flory gules. The "Kyng of Scottz" reference is from the Bruce Roll of 1332, in the 14th century.

My suggestion for a clarification is: "The earliest contemporary reference to the arms familiar to us today is in the St. George's Roll of 1285 [footnote MS Vincent 164, College of Arms] which blazons Alexander III's (1241-86) arms as: Or a lion rampant a double tressure flory counter flory gules.

.

The Law

Under Scottish and United Kingdom law [note 2] nobody may make unauthorized use of another person's coat of arms; hence popular use of the Scottish Standard (the Lion Rampant flag), is an illegal usurpation of the royal arms.

I think there's several problems with this, not quite sure how best to fix. Firstly, there's no such thing as UK law as such ... Perhaps English law specifically, or assorted legal provisions elsewhere in the UK, are what's meant? Secondly, the two are very different in such respects: the Scottish law has criminal provisions, and is at least somewhat operative, whereas the English civil law on heraldic matters hasn't been used in half a century. Lastly, I'm not certain that the implication that the "hence" makes is correct: isn't there legislation on use of royal symbols, specifically, beyond the general provisions? (Not certain on this last point, but that was my impression.) Alai 04:59, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll rewrite it. It was done in haste. Doops | talk 05:19, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

origin of supporter beast

The Scots beast has "tufts of hair and a lion-tail" and split hooves of a goat, not smooth horse hooves. This goat-lion corresponds with Chimera goat-lion, sister of Keltos ("the Celt"). She was daughter of Echidna Kelto viper-dragon , daughter of Brettanos of Gaul. - Diodorus 5.24.: J.Fontenrose "Python" U.Cal. Cam. 1959.p.98. Chimera battled Greeks in Lydia and Lycia in Homer's day and became Mount Olympias volcano in Asia Minor. Kelto claimed that Chimera was equal to Athena war-goddess, and Zeus flung Kelto into Mount Etna for her impudence. It seems Zeus was mistook... Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_for_use_in_Scotland"

This site rox!!! I never knew so much 'bout my Scotland before!!

Philostorgius writes: this goat-lion has nothing to do with Chimera or any of the above. It is the Unicorn (unicornis monoceros μονοκερος ראם ) of Ctesias, Aelian and the Bestiaries. As long as the Chimera is kept off the article, that's fine. I'm tracing how the unicorns arrived onto the Scots' arms.Philostorgius (talk) 18:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"In My Defens God Me Defend"

For those interested, image of full motto here: http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/2006AGM/mqos-arms-600.jpg from this site: http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/duedin2006-2.htm

There is also a good quality image of the Scottish Arms of James I & VI here: http://www.rampantscotland.com/symbols/graphics2/crest1899a.jpg

Rab-k (talk) 17:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Supporters

There should be more on the supporters, such as when they were adopted, as well as other animals used. Tinynanorobots (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have always been Unicorns; except on those versions belonging to royal consorts, that of Mary I as Queen of Scots and France, and not forgetting the adoption of the English lion in 1603.81.135.132.251 (talk) 10:31, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a source that says otherwise, King James I used two lions rampant guardant as did his son and grandson. http://www.archive.org/stream/heraldryofstewar00john#page/14/mode/2up Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Helm of "demasked gold"?

What is "demasked gold"? Googling this did not help me. 71.225.213.145 (talk) 03:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A helmet front-view, 'demasked' (masked/visor closed) and 'gold' is the Sovereign's helmet and can only be borne in heraldry by members of the Royal Family. In his case by the Queen in right as Monarch of Scotland. In British heraldry an open (unmasked?) helmet of steel is used for Baronets and Knights of the realms. This illustration can explain it better: helmets.jpg. The word is archaic, which is in line with words used in blazonry in general, so google might not find it. Hope this helps! Sodacan (talk) 05:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I suspect that demasked in the article is a typo for damasked: "The wavy pattern on Damascus steel". Indefatigable (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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United Kingdom of Great Britain

Was there a specific Scottish version of the British arms in the period of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, between the two Acts of Union? I can't find it anywhere.--Oudeístalk 13:25, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]