Talk:Chris Pincher

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Edit request

The following line should probably be edited: "On March 22 2021 he voted to condemn thousands of leaseholders to hardship and bankruptcy by failing to prevent costs being passed on to them in the Building Safety Scandal crippling the UK property market."

If anything to add punctuation; "On March 22, 2021, he voted to condemn thousands of leaseholders to hardship and bankruptcy by failing to prevent costs being passed on to them in the Building Safety Scandal, crippling the UK property market."

While I'm sure that the line is correct, one should possibly expect that it be written in an independent, passive voice and especially with citations to the relevant literature/legislation Special:Contributions/161.73.253.70 (talk) 15:48, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

That sentence no longer appears. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2022

We can add a reference to his resignation details, from here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/30/tory-deputy-chief-whip-resigns-after-embarrassing-myself-and-others Caresmin79 (talk) 08:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC). Caresmin79 (talk) 08:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I appears that it is already covered in the article. Was there something specific you believe is missing? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I assume you mean the contents of his letter, first reported in The Sun, e.g.:

"In a letter to the prime minister, Pincher said: “Last night I drank far too much. I’ve embarrassed myself and other people which is the last thing I want to do and for that I apologise to you and to those concerned.

""I think the right thing to do in the circumstances is for me to resign as deputy chief whip. I owe it to you and the people I’ve caused upset to, to do this."

"In the short letter, which did not address the complaints about his sexual conduct, first reported in the Sun, Pincher added: “I want to assure you that you will continue to have my full support from the back benches … It has been the honour of my life to have served in Her Majesty’s Government." Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Angela Rayner Yvette Cooper and Wendy Chamberlain

Rayner's comments were removed here with the edit summary "Angela Rayner's statement is irrelevant and obvious promotion of the Labour party." I don't see how these can be considered "irrelevant". Are we just to pretend that this incident went wholly unnoticed by other politicians? As for " obvious promotion of the Labour Party", well yes, that's how politics works? We're not allowed to add any note of criticism here? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

And now we have exactly the same action by Mugsalot here for Yvette Cooper. Could we please have some discussion here? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 11:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Steady on editors. Please use talk here to achieve consensus rather than any more toing and froing.SovalValtos (talk) 11:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

The Cooper edit was, "Yvette Cooper said “We need to know the full truth about what has happened and what the allegations are. But I think that’s [removing the whip] the first step that needs to take place. And I think the idea that the Conservatives can try and simply dismiss this is just unacceptable. (...) That is not good enough. This is about standards in public life.” Tories pressed to withdraw whip from Chris Pincher after misconduct claims The Guardian. I feel both edits were relevant though only one should be in the article, otherwise there is undue weight.Proxima Centauri (talk) 12:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

My view is summarising the reaction of Cooper, Rayner etc is relevant and WP:DUE but providing longish quotes is borderline, and probably strays into WP:UNDUE and is not necessary. DeCausa (talk) 12:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps it's better mention (the growing number of) all of those who have commented by name, rather than to try and include their comments in full? But I am at a loss to see how these comments are "irrelevant" or that we must exclude comments because the may be "propaganda" for the Labour Party. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:46, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Lib Dem Wendy Chamberlain said "Given the seriousness of these allegations, it's difficult to see how Chris Pincher can continue as an MP. There now needs to be a full investigation and in the meantime Chris Pincher should have the Conservative whip withdrawn." Chris Pincher: Call to suspend Tory MP after groping allegations BBC. I think that should go into the article too. Proxima Centauri (talk) 12:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:QUOTEFARM. What's wrong with summarising? Why do we need their actual words? It's not complicated the points they are making. DeCausa (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, e.g. "Lib Dem Wendy Chamberlain called for Pincher to resign as an MP" etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I summarized all three and put them into the article. I don't think the summries give undue weight specially as criticism of Pincher is steadily increasing. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

There have also been (unattributed) comments from backbench Tory MPs. And a letter reported here: "In a letter to the chief whip, Chris Heaton-Harris, two senior female Tory MPs said the party's recent approach to allegations of sexual misconduct posed a risk of "serious reputational damage." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I suspect listing each one isn't going to be sustainable! At some point it will need to be converted into "There were widespread calls for him to step down", which will then become "He stepped down after widespread calls for him to do so". But I suppose WP:CRYSTAL and all that. DeCausa (talk) 13:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

And don't forget the by-election (although in 2019 Pincher got 66.3%, compared to Labour's 23.7%). But the Tory Party letter seems notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

No longer unattributed. "Neil Parish, the former Conservative MP for Tiverton and Honiton,has said the Conservatives cannot show “double standards” and must remove the whip from former deputy chief whip Chris Pincher."[1] RolandR (talk) 15:46, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah bless. Just because Neil never got to park his tractor in the Carlton Club. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

"Sexually abused"

Just for clarity, the BBC's Jonny Dymond, on today's The World at One said very clearly that Pincher had been "alleged to have sexually assaulted two men". His interviewee, Thangam Debbonaire, Shadow Leader of the House, said there were "allegations of serious sexual misconduct". For those who wish to listen, the programme is available on iPlayer for 29 days. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: There don't seem to be any sources using the term "sexual abuse". There seemingly aren't many saying "sexual assualt" either although Reuters elude to some existing Local media reported he had sexually assaulted two male guests at a London club. "Sexual misconduct" seems to be more widely used, along with the less vague descriptions of groping [ibid], New Statesman Evening Standard Guardian etc. SmartSE (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree, I've not seen or heard "sexual abuse" anywhere. I suppose most people will see print media as more robust than a radio broadcast, even if it's the BBC and a senior MP? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Cite error

Currently I see the following: There were calls from unnamed Conservative MPs for a by-election to be held in Pincher's seat, as the events were considered "much worse" than when Neil Parish was caught watching pornography earlier in 2022.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). Liberal Democrat Wendy Chamberlain said the allegations were so serious it was hard to see how Pincher staying an MP. Chamberlain called for a thorough investigation and for Pincher to lose the Conservstive whip.

Both the error needs sorting, as does the mis-spelled "Conservative" of the penultimate word. 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:11F2:723B:CAC4:ABD9 (talk) 13:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC) 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:11F2:723B:CAC4:ABD9 (talk) 13:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

•  Done Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Personal life

Re this removal, where are the guidelines for deciding what is and what is not "irrelevant trivia"? Do these items have to be relevant to his job or career in some way? If he's written these into his own website, don't they carry some kind of significance for Pincher? I've never heard of the Hodge Lane Nature Reserve, the Peel Society or the Canwell Show. Does that mean they are worthless pursuits? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

p.s. according to BBC's Jonny Dymond, on today's The World at One: "a Bloody Mary was, in his words, perfect at almost time of the day." Maybe that's all we need to know about Pincher's personal life. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

_{He must get on well with the Culture Secretary. SmartSE (talk) 15:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)}

@Martinevans123: I don't think there's anything specific, but the starting point is that information should ideally use independent sources. My view at least is that using personal biographies for basic biographical information (education, family etc.) is fine but that doesn't mean that all of the informaiton in the source should be added. I really don't see why it is relevant to include a list of his favourite authors unless other sources have discussed them. As I eluded to in that edit summary, the other info on nature reserves etc. probably also does not belong without secondary sourcing. SmartSE (talk) 15:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I see. It's not that they are "irrelevant" to him, more that, unless anyone else has take a interest, they're irrelevant to the word in general. So glad he hasn't added favourite colour and shoe size. The multi-million pound copyright blunder could have been even worse. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

And now even his membership of Hodge Lane Nature Reserve seems to be in serious doubt? "Who'd Have Thought A Former Clay Pit Could Look So Good"? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing the Peel Society is about this one, not this one. Wiki seems to have no mention. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I think we can assume that. Like Pincher, The Peel Society is based in Tamworth, according to this. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:13, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Erroneous citation

Citation 40, stating Pincher "will stay in parliament as an independent" links to this Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/01/chris-pincher-loses-tory-whip-over-misconduct-allegations-conservative-mp

Which as far as I can see doesn't mention whether he will remain an independent at all. 2A00:23C7:5484:B01:85A2:DAB7:8503:86BA (talk) 21:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Two new sources added. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Chris Pincher or Christopher Pincher

Should the article be moved? Most media sources seem to use the shortened form, Chris.JLo-Watson (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe. Chris Smith, Baron Smith of Finsbury has always been shortened, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, Chris Heaton-Harris was moved from Christopher Heaton-Harris in recent years, I believe? These cases would suggest Pincher's article should be moved given that I haven't seen many media articles using the full name.JLo-Watson (talk) 18:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

We also have Chris Philp, Chris Bryant, Chris Loder, Chris Skidmore and Chris Grayling... (but not Chris Chope). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd be supportive of a move, as sources do, indeed, seem to primarily use the diminutive name. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

yep. WP:COMMONNAME. DeCausa (talk) 22:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

A simple Google search of 'Christopher Pincher' leads to dozens of news articles which all use 'Chris Pincher'. Seeing as we are all in agreement, I have moved the page.JLo-Watson (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Tory letter

As I already suggested above, I think the letter from select committee chairs Karen Bradley and Caroline Nokes to Chief Whip Chris Heaton-Harris, is significant as it is formal criticism from within the Tory Party's own ranks. I do not agree that it is simply "WP:COATRACK", as removed here. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I have now added it at Chris Pincher scandal. Now that we have a separate article, I guess the relevant section in this one could be trimmed. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Sexual misconduct allegations

I think it was right to create a new sub-heading on these allegation and resignations. However, this section now seems to be in danger of becoming not only too long and detailed, but also in danger of straying off-topic. Please avoid taking the opportunity to score political points about the Labour or the Conservative parties, using various quotes about their overall attitudes and tolerance of sexual misconduct. This is a developing news story, or great interest to many people. But it nevertheless needs to remain a succinct encyclopaedic article about this person. Please ensure all statements that could violate WP:BLP are fully cited in the body of the article even if they are cited in the lead, per WP:LEADCITE. Don't expect readers to have to check sources cited elsewhere within the article. Support each contentious statement or allegation made about a person at the end of the relevant sentence, please. Thank you. Nick Moyes (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Would you care to respond to the thread I opened immediately above? I also don't believe that the claim that he "groped two men" is contentious or needing to be supported with a source in the lead section. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:19, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I think I tend to agree with Nick Moyes comments. There’s a bit of a WP:NOTNEWS issue with it as well as WP:QUOTEFARM. There’s aspects of the section drifting into the bigger political story and away from what Pincher actually did. I wonder if it’s time to split this off into a separate article about the bigger political story? DeCausa (talk) 11:44, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I still regard the letter from Tories Karen Bradley and Caroline Nokes as significant. Do you think that "groped two men" is still a "contentious statement", which needs to be supported with a source everywhere it's mentioned? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

And now we have it: 2022 United Kingdom government crisis. And Chris Pincher scandal. I think the sexual misconduct section in this article needs to be edited down to the specifics of the allegations, the fact that there were calls for his resignation, and that it led to the crisis. probably just a paragraph. DeCausa (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Quite surprising how things have changed in the space of 2 days? Or perhaps not. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I accept this has become so much more significant than it was a few days ago. Ensuring the right succinct balance here still remains important, however, especially now we have Chris Pincher scandal and 2022 United Kingdom government crisis. Thanks to all editors for your work. Nick Moyes (talk) 22:37, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2022

In the second paragraph of the 'Sexual Misconduct' section, the article states, "at the private Carlton Club, the Conservative Party members' club, in St James's, London..." This is wrong. The Carlton Club is not a club for Conservative Party Members, and being a member of the Conservative Party does not confer membership of the Carlton Club or allow people to use its facilities. Similarly, being a member of the Conservative Party is not a prerequisite for membership of the Carlton Club. A more accurate description might be "...at the Carlton Club, a Private Member's Club in St James associated with the Conservative Party..." or possibly "one of London’s foremost members-only clubs [and] the original home of the Conservative Party" which is how it describes itself (see https://www.carltonclub.co.uk/) 78.150.62.16 (talk) 23:36, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done The BBC source here has been updated since it was added. Text has been changed to "... a private members club..." Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Urgent questions

The Guardian reports here that the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, has granted a Commons urgent question, on standards in public life, tabled by Labour's deputy leader,Angela Rayner, for 12.30pm today. Daisy Cooper, the Lib Dem deputy leader, has said: "Lord McDonald has shone a new light on this murky cover-up. Boris Johnson needs to own up to his web of lies and finally come clean today. Every day this carries on our politics gets dragged further through the mud." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Cabinet office minister Michael Ellis said that Johnson "was made aware of allegations against lawmaker Christopher Pincher in 2019, but he did not "immediately recall" it when fresh reports surfaced last week." lol Martinevans123 (talk) 12:25, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2022

In the chapter "Sexual misconduct allegations" in the following sentence : "The BBC then reported, however, that an official complaint and subsequent investigation into Pincher while he was at the Foreign Office (July 2019 to February 2020) that confirmed misconduct, and that Johnson had been made aware of the matter.[51]", I suggest the order of the words "that confirmed misconduct" be changed to "confirmed that misconduct" or the sentence be rewritten so as to be grammatically correct. Thank you. Sylvanfairy (talk) 12:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Propose: "The BBC then reported, however, that an official complaint and subsequent investigation into Pincher, while he was at the Foreign Office (July 2019 to February 2020), which confirmed his misconduct, had occurred, and that Johnson had been made aware of the matter." Martinevans123 (talk) 12:53, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Propose:"The BBC then reported, however, that an official complaint and subsequent investigation into Pincher, while he was at the Foreign Office (July 2019 to February 2020), confirmed his misconduct, and that Johnson had been made aware of the matter." Sylvanfairy (talk) 13:25, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

On second thoughts, now propose: "The BBC then reported, however, that an official complaint and subsequent investigation into Pincher, while he was at the Foreign Office (July 2019 to February 2020), had confirmed his misconduct, and that Johnson had been made aware of the matter at that time." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

How now updated to this version. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Excellent! Sylvanfairy (talk) 20:44, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: contains no lies. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2022

Boris Johnson announced during PMQs on June 6th that Chris Pincher was removed from the Conservative Party and now sits as an Independent MP D0xxate (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:30, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

The article already says He was suspended as a Conservative MP[42] but will stay in parliament as an independent.[43][44] SmartSE (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Opening paragraph still says he is a “member of the Conservative Party” which is misleading given he currently sits as an independent MP BeaujolaisFortune (talk) 18:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

He's probably paid his party membership fee to the end of the year? Unless he's feeling the pinch, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) He's still a member of the Conservative Party, so that's not misleading. Having the Whip suspended (or withdrawn), which has happened in his case, is a different thing. Losing the Whip and being expelled from the Party are two different issues/processes and losing the whip doesn't mean he would necessarily be expelled form the party. DeCausa (talk) 19:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Will there be a by-election? For some reason his constituents don't seem too happy. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2022 (UTC)