Talk:Carr Hill/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) 13:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"... the Industrial Revolution brought heavy industry, so it was once the centre of pottery making in Tyneside and site of numerous stone quarries, glass makers and windmills." That's a complete non sequitor, as there's no causal relationship btween the arrival of heavy industry and pottery making or windmills, for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 14:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the word 'heavy' and slightly reworded the sentence to read better and remove the non sequitor.

Early history

"Carr Hill's history is reasonably recorded". What does "reasonably recorded" mean?

I edited about six Gateshead articles in a row and it was comparable to the others(!) I have removed it.

"The village was located partially in Upper Heworth and partially in Gateshead Fell". Has the village moved since then? If not, why "was located"?

This one is more complex. Carr Hill now is wholly in Tyne and Wear, but in its formative years Tyne and Wear didn't exist and instead what is today Gateshead was split into various parishes, the towns of Gateshead and Felling and a very large common called Gateshead Fell. Carr Hill, unlike almost every other neighbouring village/settlement/town, lay almost exactly on the boundary between Gateshead Fell and the parish of Upper Heworth. Gateshead Fell ceased to exist around 1809 (it was enclosed), and the Upper Heworth parish was disbanded in about 1890 (replaced by Felling UDC), so it cannot be said that Carr Hill today lies in either– it is simply one more settlement in the Metropolitan Borough of Gateshead.

As I said, it's a bit complicated, but to include all of that detail would I think cause more confusion than the statement as stands...

Industrial period 1740 – 1860

"A flint glass manufacturer, under the management of Alexander Elliot, also provided means of employment." That's rather oddly phrased, as there was no mention of the thee mills providing employment in the preceding sentence, so the "also" sticks out like a sore thumb. Also provided employment in addition to flint glass? And why "means of employment" rather than just "employment"?

I've re-structured and slightly reworded the offending sentence.

Thanks for reviewing. I've added my responses directly beneath the issues raised... Meetthefeebles (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So far so good then. I'll try to get back to this later this evening. Malleus Fatuorum 16:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Industrial decline and modern development

" In 1894 Whellan's described Carr Hill as ...". What's Whellan's? Hasn't been mentioned before so far as I can see.

It should read 'Whellan' and has been changed.

"Carr Hill Pottery had operated throughout the 19th century". Is Carr Hill Pottery the same as Warburton's pottery? It doesn't seem to have been mentioned until now anyway.

Yes it is and reference has been made earlier.

"The replacement was housing." The replacement for what?

I've written the opening sentence.

"... housing levels were unsustainable in light of rapid population growth." This comes rather out of the blue, as the story in this section so far has been one of decline. Why was the population expanding?

The population of Gateshead was expanding, not Carr Hill. Housing was built in Carr Hill to deal with the overcrowding in Gateshead, which is/was very close to the town.

"... some pottery references". What kind of "pottery references"?

This is made clear later in the article but I have made a change nonetheless.

"Residents do, however, share a positive sense of place and enjoy generous amounts of open space." That's seems far too promotional.

This is a quote from an official document and I'm not sure I agree at all; it comes from an official document and is verifiable. I have, nonetheless, removed the sentence.

Economy

"The decline of industry in Carr Hill and the rapid building of residential property transformed the village into a residential estate." What hasn't been explained is why there was such a rise in residential property; mostly when industry declines than so does the population. Is the explanation commuting?

The explanation comes earlier– Gateshead had become overcrowded and so Gateshead Council bought land in Carr Hill and Sheriff Hill, built a large council estate and encouraged people from an overcrowded Gateshead to move to the new estates.

"... which provides some means of employment and which has become a social landmark". Why "some means of employment" rather than "employment". And what's a "social landmark"?

Sentence slightly re-worded. Gateshead Council use the term "social landmark", so I have included quotation marks to reflect this. An exact explanation as to what it means isn't provided...

"A new Tesco Extra store at the eastern fringe of the boundary with Windy Nook, opened in 2012 and employing around 20 staff, also provides employment to residents." So it employs 20 staff and provides employment to residents? How "new" is new?

Sentence reworded. 'New' as in opened this year, which is made clear in the same sentence.

"42% of children in the ward live in poverty." Sentences ought not to start with numbers.

Change made to prevent this.

"The average income of residents at £24,000 is £3,000 below the regional median." Average and median don't mean the same thing.

'Average' removed.

"Overall, Carr Hill falls within the most deprived 20% of regions". What's the context? Nationally?

'England' added for context.

Religion

The article is missing a section on the religion of the residents, places of worship and so on, to which the Our Lady of the Annunciation Church subsection could conveniently be moved.

This isn't strictly necessary, but I have found the data and added a section and have split the culture and community section so that Our Lady of the Annunciation is now in this section.

I believe that it is strictly necessary to meet GA's broadness requirement, as it's one of the primary sections included in WP:UKCITIES. Malleus Fatuorum 14:38, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, and with due respect, you have misread WP:UKCITIES. The guideline states: "Articles should almost always conform to the basic structure of a lead/infobox followed by history, government, geography, demography and economy, as those sections contain much of the basic information about any settlement. Beyond that, editors are advised to come to a consensus that works best for the settlement in question." There, is, therefore, absolutely no requirement other than those sections stated. And religion isn't one of them. Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Without wishing to labour the point, I'm afraid that it's my opinion that counts here, not yours, and that quotation has to be read in conjunction with GA criterion 3a. But as you've now added a Religion section there is no need for us to continue this discussion. Malleus Fatuorum 15:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Venues

"By 1827, Parson and White's Directory listed The Brown Jug, adjoining Carr Hill Pottery .... The second is likely the Old Fellows Inn, located near the Brown Jug at Carr Hill Lane...". There's some inconsistency in this section between "The Brown Jug" and "the Brown Jug".

Changed.

"Although the application was declined, the area became something of a 'no-go' area." We were talking about the pub in the previous sentence, but now we're talking about an area. What area?

Slight rewrite here.

Our Lady of the Annunciation Church

"In recent years, however, parish priest David Taylor was arrested in connection with a number of indecent assaults". He wasn't arrested in recent years, he was arrested in a specific year. 2009?

Yes. Changed

Transport

"The nearest Metro station is Felling. The nearest British Rail station is Heworth Interchange." How far away are the stations?

I am willing to add this, but what counts as a reliable source? I ask this because I had a similar problem with another article in the past and, in the end, I simply took the distances out because there is no secondary source which will provide a verifiable, reliable distance.

Where's the nearest airport? How far away?

Again, I can add this, but I will not be able to provide a reliable secondary source to verify it. Any suggestions?

Yes, the one I mentioned later in connection with climate data.[1] Malleus Fatuorum 14:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spotted and added Meetthefeebles (talk) 15:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Elgin Centre

Why isn't this included in the Leisure and recreation section?

"... aims to work towards the betterment of lives in Deckham and neighbouring wards." It just aims to do that, rather than doing it?

This statement is a paraphrase of the statement in the source, hence is verifiable. The alternative you suggest is unverifiable and therefore I cannot add it.

Are you paraphrasing the charity's objectives? That says nothing about "aiming towards". A better paraphrase would seem to be to a simple "works towards the betterment ...". Malleus Fatuorum 15:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your suggestion is better, I agree. Have now changed.

Public services

You could usefully include a section on public services. Who collects the rubbish? Provides services such as electricity, gas and water? Policing? Emergency services? Where's the nearest medical centre/hospital?

This is not a requirement of either WP:GAN or WP:CITIES and none of the articles I have edited have included such a section. Ordinarily I would consider adding but I am heavily engaged with work at the moment (when I nominated the article I was on my summer break) and simply do not have the time at present to research and then draft such a section I'm afraid...

I didn't say that it was, I said that you could usefully add such a section, but it's not a primary section according to WP:UKCITIES. Malleus Fatuorum 14:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Geography and topography

You ought to say something about Carr Hill's climate. Mean temperature, amount of rainfall/sunshine, that kind of thing. Does it have a microclimate influenced by its position at the top of a hill?

This is not possible, because data for Carr Hill is not collected by the Met Office. For reasons I have never really understood there is no weather centre in Gateshead or Newcastle and indeed the nearest data is from Durham, which is 13 miles away. I could perhaps add this but I don't think it would be appropriate and certainly wouldn't reflect any possible microclimate in Carr Hill.

It is indeed possible, and is in fact quite easy. Take a look here. There's even a handy template you can use to lay out the data ({{climate chart}}), which you can see in action at Stretford. Malleus Fatuorum 13:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might find [2] this useful as well. Malleus Fatuorum 14:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know of this source satisfied WP:V. I'll add the data...now added.Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

Why isn't ref #5 in the Notes section?

Moved.

Ref #7 is to "Mackensie, 1827: 726". Should that be "MacKenzie, 1827: 726"?

Changed.

Ref #115 cites "GC 13, 2008: 4", but the corresponding entry in Journals, reports, papers and other sources gives it as "GC13".

Changed.

Although this won't affect the outcome of the review, I have to say that I find it a little tedious to navigate the citations; presented with, say, " Petts, 2010: 1" I have no idea whether to look for it in the Academic and other texts section or the Journals, reports, papers and other sources section. In addition, not having the abbreviations such as "CYP" and "EHT" in any kind of order makes them excessively difficult to find.

There are a lot of sources, so breaking them up makes sense to me. Certainly no-one has made reference to this before. The sources are in alphabetic order and I am not really sure that ordering them any other way would be appropriate.

Again, although this won't affect the outcome of the review, the citations ought to be laid out consistently. Compare the retrieved on formats in refs #45, #48, and #121 for instance.

Changed for consistency.

Thank you for a very detailed review. I have addressed all of the points raised with comments available above. Meetthefeebles (talk) 09:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're just about there now, but I do have two more issues to raise I'm afraid:

Demography

"... the profile document rather strangely tends to consider most of geographic Carr Hill and much less of its neighbour". In whose opinion is it "rather strangely"? Is that a direct quote or your own opinion? If the latter then it needs to be removed, and if the former it needs to be sourced. Malleus Fatuorum 15:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the offending sentence.

Transport

"... the nearest British Rail station is Heworth Interchange". British Rail hasn't existed since 1997.

I think National Rail perhaps is better? I've made a change here.

I think a simple "railway station" would be enough. Malleus Fatuorum 15:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've considered the points above and, again, thank you for a thoroughly detailed review. Meetthefeebles (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure you feel that I've been unnecessarily harsh, and perhaps I have, but I hope you'll agree that the article has been improved as a result. Anyway, I'm now happy to list this as a GA. Congratulations. Malleus Fatuorum 15:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.