Talk:Carmelo Simeone

Number of Caps

I can answer my own question! Yes, one of your sources credits Simeone with 6 caps - but from when he joined Boca in 1962. So that's where the confusion lies. Whoever put the wikipedia article together made the mistake of thinking those six caps were the only ones he won. Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.5.1 (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

PS I presume you received my earlier replay, with the proof of Simeone's cap total... Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.5.1 (talk) 00:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

No, I cannot see any link with proof to Simeone's correct cap total. If you would be kind enough to post a hyperlink to the evidence it would be appreciated. Regards King of the North East 00:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Hm. So my earlier input seems to have been lost. I'll try and repeat it word for word, best I can.

I have in my possession a publication issued by El Grafico magazine in 1998. It gives full details for every official senior international match played by Argentina's national team. These details include complete team line-ups, substitutions (with times), goal times, players' clubs, stadia, attendance figures, referees, you name it. The publication was called Argentina Partido A Partido. It does not appear to be available on the internet, so if the only sources wikipedia accept are online, then there's a problem. Nevertheless, this publication exists. It's in front of me now! It was compiled by Argentina's No.1 national team historian Julio Macias and rsssf contributor Roberto Mamrud, with whom I'm in regular contact. So it is PUBLISHED and it is RELIABLE. WShether you accept that is another matter, I suppose.

In its match details for the 1964 match against England, it clearly states that Simeone was winning his 22nd cap. It was also his last. He won his first in the 1959 Copa America, his 7th in a 4-0 win over Uruguay in 1960 (already more than the six you claim as his total), his 10th in a goalless draw with Paraguay in 1961, and his 20th in the 2-0 win over Portugal in 1964. Every one of his 22 international matches is clearly laid out, and they are all definitely official senior games. He definitely won his last against England inn 1964. So he didn't 'represent' Argentina at the 1966 World Cup finals. 'Represent' in that context always means 'played for'. And he certainly didn't play in those 1966 finals (this is very easy to confirm in any number of websites, including FIFA's own), although as I said in my first edit he was in the squad.

Even if you don't accept my printed source, it should be clear that Simeone won more than six caps just by following up my last piece of input befroe this, in which I mention oone of your sources, which says he won six caps WHILE WITH BOCA. Since he joined them in 1962, it's clear that there must have been other caps before then. And the El Grafico publication confirms that he won his first 16 caps (up to and including the 2-1 defeat by the USSR in 1961) while he was with Velez Sarsfield. He won his 17th (v Uruguay 1962) with Boca.

Surely all this must lead you to wonder whether your '6 caps' might be rather wide of the mark and to at least do some more research yourself. You could, for instance, email the Argentinian FA. But I hope you'll accept my published source as conclusive proof. Even if you don't, you surely have to stop saying Simeone 'represented' Argentina at the 1966 World Cup finals... Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.5.1 (talk) 13:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

My last two attempts to reply don't seem to have got through, so I thought I'd try this way. Fingers crossed!

I have in my possession a publication issued by El Grafico magazine in 1998. It gives full details for every official senior international match played by Argentina's national team. These details include complete team line-ups, substitutions (with times), goal times, players' clubs, stadia, attendance figures, referees, you name it. The publication was called Argentina Partido A Partido. It does not appear to be available on the internet, so if the only sources wikipedia accept are online, then there's a problem. Nevertheless, this publication exists. It's in front of me now! It was compiled by Argentina's No.1 national team historian Julio Macias and rsssf contributor Roberto Mamrud, with whom I'm in regular contact. So it is PUBLISHED and it is RELIABLE. WShether you accept that is another matter, I suppose.

In its match details for the 1964 match against England, it clearly states that Simeone was winning his 22nd cap. It was also his last. He won his first in the 1959 Copa America, his 7th in a 4-0 win over Uruguay in 1960 (already more than the six you claim as his total), his 10th in a goalless draw with Paraguay in 1961, and his 20th in the 2-0 win over Portugal in 1964. Every one of his 22 international matches is clearly laid out, and they are all definitely official senior games. He definitely won his last against England inn 1964. So he didn't 'represent' Argentina at the 1966 World Cup finals. 'Represent' in that context always means 'played for'. And he certainly didn't play in those 1966 finals (this is very easy to confirm in any number of websites, including FIFA's own), although as I said in my first edit he was in the squad.

Even if you don't accept my printed source, it should be clear that Simeone won more than six caps just by following up my last piece of input befroe this, in which I mention oone of your sources, which says he won six caps WHILE WITH BOCA. Since he joined them in 1962, it's clear that there must have been other caps before then. And the El Grafico publication confirms that he won his first 16 caps (up to and including the 2-1 defeat by the USSR in 1961) while he was with Velez Sarsfield. He won his 17th (v Uruguay 1962) with Boca.

Surely all this must lead you to wonder whether your '6 caps' might be rather wide of the mark and to at least do some more research yourself. You could, for instance, email the Argentinian FA. But I hope you'll accept my published source as conclusive proof. Even if you don't, you surely have to stop saying Simeone 'represented' Argentina at the 1966 World Cup finals... Cris Freddi 82.35.5.1 (talk) 19:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply from Argentina's leading national-team statistician and historian Julio Macias:

This I write in my book Quién es Quién en la selección argentina (2011) about Carmelo Simeone:

Simeone, Carmelo. Marcador lateral. 22 partidos (1959-64). // El Cholo. // De enorme temperamento, aguerrido, sin grandes luces técnicas, pero con una entrega sin límites, fue un defensor recio, a veces algo vehemente, pero siempre sólido y eficaz. En Boca Juniors llenó toda una época (la de la década del '60, con varios títulos) y siempre pareció un jugador hecho para ese club y su historia de garra y despliegue. Tenía otra particularidad: ejecutaba los saques de costado con mucha fuerza -tenía una gran potencia de brazos-. // En la selección, su campaña fue de 5 años, 2 meses y 30 días, con 12 victorias, 6 empates y 4 caídas, una de ellas contra la Unión Soviética, en Buenos Aires, en 1961, después de 20 años sin derrotas como local: esa tarde fue ampliamente superado por el hábil extemo europeo Meskhi. // Fue titular en el gran logro pre-títulos mundiales: la Copa de las Naciones '64, donde cumplió sus últimas apariciones con el equipo nacional. // Integró el plantel que fue a la Copa del Mundo '66, pero no jugó. // Disputó la Copa América de 1959: 3 presencias y fue campeón. // Cuando debutó, los estrenos totales -en el cotejo siguiente al llamado desastre de Suecia- fueron 10. // Siempre fue titular, con una sola excepción, y lo reemplazaron en 3 oportunidades.

Carmelo SIMEONE Marcador lateral 22 partidos Nació: 22-9-1934, Ciudadela, provincia de Buenos Aires Clubes: Vélez Sarsfield (1959-61, 16 partidos), Boca Juniors (1962-64, 6)

1959 07/03 Buenos Aires Chile 6-1 Copa América 11/03 Buenos Aires Bolivia 2-0 Copa América 04/04 Buenos Aires Brasil 1-1 Copa América 1960 09/07 Buenos Aires Paraguay 1-0 Copa del Atlántico 12/07 Río de Janeiro Brasil 1-5 Copa del Atlántico 24/07 Buenos Aires España 2-0 Amistoso 17/08 Buenos Aires Uruguay 4-0 Copa del Atlántico 04/12 Guayaquil Ecuador 6-3 Eliminatorias del Mundial 17/12 Buenos Aires Ecuador 5-0 Eliminatorias del Mundial 1961 17/05 Asunción Paraguay 0-0 Copa Chevallier Boutell 04/06 Lisboa Portugal 2-0 Amistoso 11/06 Sevilla España 0-2 Amistoso 15/06 Florencia Italia 1-4 Amistoso 19/06 Brnö Checoslovaquia 3-3 Amistoso 24/06 Moscú Unión Soviética 0-0 Amistoso 18/11 Buenos Aires Unión Soviética 1-2 Amistoso 1962 13/03 Montevideo Uruguay 1-1 Amistoso 07/11 Santiago de Chile Chile 1-1 Copa Carlos Dittborn 21/11 Buenos Aires Chile 1-0 Copa Carlos Dittborn 1964 31/05 Río de Janeiro Portugal 2-0 Copa de las Naciones 03/06 San Pabo Brasil 3-0 Copa de las Naciones 06/06 Río de Janeiro Inglaterra 1-0 Copa de las Naciones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.5.1 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)