Talk:Borna (duke)

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article title

This article title should be Borna of Dalmatia and Liburnia, because that was his title (not croatia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.136.179.11 (talk) 4 March 2013 (UTC)

"croatia" or "Croatia"?? Illiteracy or ...? Anyway, Borna had various titles, depending of sources, but he was ruler of the Principality or Duchy of Croatia, like his predecessors and successors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverije (talk • contribs) 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Borna ruled the Duchy (or Principality) of Croatia (the littoral part of lands inhabited by Croats), not the Duchy of Dalmatia or Liburnia, and was Frankish vassal. On the contrary, Dalmatian cities were part of Byzantine Empire. Liburnia didn't exist any more. See corresponding articles. --Silverije — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverije (talk • contribs) 22:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence Borna's ethnicity was Croatian

I disagree with the listing of Borna as Duke of Croatia. There is no mention of Borna being a Croatian in the Royal Frankish Annals. Here are all the mentions of Borna in the chapters 818 AD to 822 AD:

818 AD: Bornae, ducis Guduscanorum, et Timocianoru (Borna, duke of the Guduscani, and of the Timociani)

819 AD: Borna vero dux Dalmatiae (Borna in fact was the duke of Dalmatia)

821 AD: Borna dux Dalmatiae atque Liburniae (Borna, the duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia)

821 AD: nepos illius nomine Ladasclavus successor ei constitutus est (his grandson named Ladasclavus was appointed his successor)

822 AD: Liudemuhslum avunculum Bornae ducis (Liudemuhsl, the uncle of duke Borna)

We can assume he was Slavic based on the fact that his uncle (*L’udemyslь) and his nephew (*Vladislavъ) had Slavic names. Borna's name itself cannot convincingly be interpreted as Slavic, let alone Croatian.

Therefore I also propose removing all the references of him being a duke of Croatia, an entity that did not exist during his time. Here is my suggestion for the rephrasing of the first two paragraphs:

Current version: Borna was the duke of Croatia from c. 810 to 821 and vassal of the Frankish Empire. He resided in Nin and was the ruler of most of the Croats in northern Dalmatia.

He is mentioned in the Royal Frankish Annals (Annales regni Francorum) in entries regarding 818–821. His titles were "Duke of the Guduscani" (a Croatian tribe from Lika and northern Dalmatia) in 818; "Duke of Dalmatia" in 819; "Duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia" in 821. Historiography treats him as a ruler of Dalmatian Croatia.

My proposal: Borna was the duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia from c. 810 to 821 and vassal of the Frankish Empire. He resided in Nin and was the ruler of the Slavic tribes Guduscani and Timociani in northern Dalmatia.

He is mentioned in the Royal Frankish Annals (Annales regni Francorum) in entries regarding 818–821. His titles were "Duke of the Guduscani" (a Slavic tribe from Lika and northern Dalmatia) in 818; "Duke of Dalmatia" in 819; "Duke of Dalmatia and Liburnia" in 821. Historiography treats him, falsely, as a ruler of Dalmatian Croatia, an entity that did not exist during Borna's time. Slovenist972 (talk) 12:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:No original research. This is a widely discussed topic in historiography and general consensus disagrees with your proposal, as well does WP:NPOV.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 03:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]