Jump to content

Talk:Bolzano/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possible addition to the disclaimer

[edit]

See User:Andrewa/disclaimer and discuss at the Village Pump. Andrewa 03:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Age of Otzi

[edit]

Material in the museum in Bolzano-Bozen puts his estimated age at 40 to 53 ...

Bernard Bolzano

[edit]

I propose moving Bolzano (disambiguation) to Bolzano, since the latter should really be used as a disambiguation page rather than a redirect to this page. A quick Google search for "bolzano" turns up about 1.3 million results, half of which seem to be for the city and half of which are for the person Bernard Bolzano (and the top result is actually for the person). --Wclark 20:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also found a mention here about the reasons for the original move. If nobody objects in either of these discussions within a few days, I'll go ahead and make the move. --Wclark 20:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bolzano moved to "Bozen-Bolzano"

[edit]

As an Italian city, should the article be listed under the Italian name Bolzano?

Pietro 06:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The city could be named int he two way: Bolzano or Bozen, this does not mean that its name is Bozen-Bolzano or Bolzano-Bozen. Put the articol under on of the two name (Bolzano or Bozen) and put a redirect on the other, but there is not a city called Bozen-Bolzano. AnyFile 10:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the article should be "Bolzano", with a redirect from "Bozen". Pietro 11:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, the double name should be in the form "Bolzano-Bozen", since Bolzano is a bilingual italian city, but it's still in Italy. On it:Bolzano, the data panel lists the city as "Bolzano (Bozen)". Alfio 11:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current way of naming has been agreed upon after a lenghty edit war, no point in stirring it up again, I suggest to leave it the current way since Bozen is with an italian majority, however is the capital city of Südtirol which is german speaking. In that case it could be argued, that Merano-Meran be renamed into Meran only, since the population there is German-speaking. However for the sake of harmony and language-equality better to leave it the way it is. Gryffindor 16:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As we are in the English version of the Wikipedia, the English more common naming convention should be used. A Google.com search in English language for .uk domains gives the following results:
- city bolzano: 15.800 pages
- "bolzano-bozen": 1.300 pages
- city bozen: 470 pages
- "bozen-bolzano": 357 pages
Pietro 18:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further. Gryffindor 00:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

During the summer I raised the issue of moving the South Tyrolian locations to Italian article names at Talk:Meran-Merano. Markussep pointed out the current compromise system, which I find acceptable. Olessi 17:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't a matter of keeping German or Italian names: we have to use English names. If Googlepedia is not the right way to sample common English, could it be Britannica, Columbia or Encarta ? Pietro 19:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but if you find 99 wrong pages, then Wikipedia has to follow??!
Bozen has two names. Officially. In 2005. Not one. Even if you don't like it.
Wikipedia IS NOT Encarta and IS NOT Britannica. It is better. It shows the reality.
Especially an Italian wishing to delete german South-Tyrolean names really gives a strange impression about the way Italy treats minorities... Fantasy 容 19:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Also: Why is there a redirect from Peking to Beijing. Everyone knew Peking, but "it was decided" that the official name is Beijing. So, if there are two official names for a city, we don't follow, only if there is one? Or are the Chinese leaders more important to Wikipedia then some German speaking people who are always suppressed by italians (as you see here)? Fantasy 容 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above user. Any moves to strike everything down for Italian names to me does not sound objective or neutral anymore, it is a POV. If Italian users want to use the name Bolzano, that's fine they can do that in the Italian Wikipedia. And the German ones can use Bozen in the German one. However this is an English-International Wikipedia version, so obviously we have to be as neutral as possible. It is not easy, but it is possible. German and Italian are both official languages in South Tyrol, therefore the double names, why is this so difficult to accept? Gryffindor 23:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Even if German and Italian are both official languages in Alto Adige, in the English Wikipedia we have to use the name used by the English speaking people. People in Florence speak Italian, but the right title for the page is Florence, not Firenze. -- Pietro 07:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If someone says in Wikipedia "we have to..." he does not understand Wikipedia.
Wikipedia is about a neutral point of view mixed with common sense.
Pietro, before you speak about "we have to" please try to understand how Wikipedia works. A hint: it has something to do with "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect" (that is particularely missing in your first post in this thread...) Fantasy 容 16:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
PS: In case don't understand why you don't respect other people: Bolzano is not an "Italian" city, it is a city where German and Italian speaking people live, incorporated as a autonomous province in the terretory of Italy.
Fantasy, my first post was due to the fact that this article (and some other else) have been renamed without any previous discussion about this action: opening a discussion about the name of a page is my sense of "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect".
Concerning Bolzano, according Wikipedia it is an Italian city: in my opinion, this point is something to respect at the same level of the rights of the German people living in Bolzano, as described in the article.
As for what Wikipedia "has to do", in my understanding "being rigorous" about the info we publish is one of the main goal: showing respect to people accessing to en.Wikipedia to know how English people name Bolzano, for instance, "we have to" publish the right info, not a compromise between personal POV. -- Pietro 22:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A proposal from a meeting between german and italian speaking Wikipedians

[edit]
I just saw that italian and german speaking Wikipedians sat down together this weekend and found a kind of compromise: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol#What.27s_in_a_name.3F
one line is interresting "for Cities an villages in South Tyrol the german name shut be used if there are more etnic germans then italians (the same for ladin villages)"
Does this mean, that cities with italian majority should just have the italian name?
And that every time a "majority" changes the article name has to be changed (as it happens in Finnland with village-names)?
If this would be accepted as a general en.Wikipedia rule I think I could life with it. What do others say to this?
Maybe there are compromises out there, where we can meet, i hope so :-) Fantasy 容 17:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should stick on bureaucracy. Since Bolzano/Bozen is an Italian city, and not a German one, and is also the only city in South Tyrol which is inhabited by more Italian-speaking people than German-speaking, using Bozen/Bolzano instead of the other one is just anachronistic nationalism. On our identity card documents are written first in Italian and then in German - that's clear since Bolzano/Bozen is in Italy. Also all road signs are written on the first line in Italian and on the second one in German, when quite everywhere else in South Tyrol the roads are written first in German and then in Italian, or they don't even have an Italian name. When you arrive at Bolzano/Bozen station you find the sign "Bolzano/Bozen", not "Bozen/Bolzano". Bolzano is a city placed in Italy nearly from a century, so it is clear that non-German speakers tend to use the Italian name instead of the German one. Bolzano/Bozen became a big city just because many Italians migrated there (and also obviously because of the Options that chased many of the previous German inhabitants), so it is logical to think of Bolzano primarily as an Italian city. The other big populated centers in South Tyrol are mainly of German language and it is right to leave them with the German name first; but Bolzano is a full Italian town where also the most part of Germans speak normally the other language.

I'm congratulating with Fantasy for his work on this page, but the choice of moving it to Bozen-Bolzano instead of Bolzano-Bozen is highly and openly unfair. Also each page with Bozen-Bolzano in its name should be changed according to this, leaving the rest of South Tyrolean cities the way they are.

--Σω 17:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are streets in Bozen, witch aren' translated for beeing Names, der are also street with to completly different names like vic. sabbia - zum Talfergries and Kaiserau - Il Bivio if the street is called like Via Peter-Mair-Straße the italian via is everywhere the first You say Via NN in italian and NN-Straße in german--Martin Se 12:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was not talking about how streets are translated from one language to another, but about the fact that street signs in Bolzano/Bozen are written _everywhere_ with the first line in Italian and the second line in German. That's something that doesn't happen in other cities in South Tyrol (maybe in some towns near BZ like Laives/Leifers or Bronzolo/Branzoll, but I don't swear it since I didn't notice the signs last times I've been there).
Since the street names are probably ordered on the population base, I think that criteria should be strictly followed, enforced by street signs criteria. Therefore at least the following inhabitated centers:
  • Bolzano/Bozen
  • Laives/Leifers
  • Salorno/Salurn
  • Bronzolo/Branzoll
which are mainly inhabited by Italians, as written on Italian wiki, should have a page with the first name in Italian. That's a good compromise that shouldn't hurt anyone within its nationalism. --Σω 12:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole history of the "Option" does not belong to this page.

[edit]

Sorry to start another flame. But I think it is more appropriate to put the history of the Option in the South Tyrol page and remove it from this page. It really affected the whole region, not just Bolzano.

--Giac 20:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong name of this article

[edit]

"According to the 2001 census, 73% of the city inhabitants were Italian speakers."

If that is so, then why first name in the article title is in German and not in Italian? This is city in Italy with majority Italian spakers and I see no reason to have first name in German, a language spoken by only 23% of population. The name of the article should be changed to "Bolzano" or to "Bolzano-Bozen" at least. PANONIAN (talk) 17:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good point, it seems that the compromise decided on above only works when it favours the Germans. Personally I think we should keep the double-barrel names (i.e. both versions) as whenever I look on atlasses of the area that I have to hand, they list both names usually slashed like Bolzano/Bozen. Since this dual naming seems to be an 'official' situation in the area I don't see any reason why we can't put both (or in Ladin areas all three) names for the towns and cities, with the majority inhabitants of that city given precedence (i.e. their version first). Following this rule, this page would be Bolzano-Bozen, while Merano's page would be Meran-Merano and for a Ladin example St. Ulrich in Gröden-Urtijëi-Ortisei (currently favouring the German name) should be Urtijëi-St. Ulrich in Gröden-Ortisei (80% are Ladin speakers, most bilingual in German hence German comes second and Italian comes last). I bet we have another edit war if someone tries to do anything that reasonable though Seek100 18:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "favouring" towards any language. Since all three languages enjoy official equal status, it is irrelevant in that case who speaks more in what place. For the sake of order, in this case languages and names are listed by alphabetically. This is the most neutral solution and pre-empts any naming conflict based on number of speakers. Gryffindor 07:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me, but alphabetically Bolzano come before Bozen, my friend. :))) PANONIAN (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify: Languages are listed alphabetically following the principle at the United Nations, regardless how many people speak what. Therefore the "G"erman comes before the "I"talian, etc. Gryffindor 17:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't Bolzen german slang for going really fast in a car? I'm Sicilian so I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, if the majority of the inhabitatns are Italiani, it should have the italian name first. On the other hand...that is so far north it might as well be Germany. We Sicilian-Americans have a term for people so far north in Italia, we call them yankees =P.--Josh Rocchio 21:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Voting

[edit]

Because of the reasons explained above, I request that name of this article is changed and I propose voting about this. PANONIAN (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please add your comments to the survey and discussion at the top of the page. Thanks. E Asterion u talking to me? 20:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]




Removal of double names

[edit]

Following Andrewa and Markussep advices given here (as the one from Septentrionalis here) both of those criteria should be used. I agree for the elimination of double names, but I would like to remember that this kind of choice - for the many reasons given by both of you and by who's supporting the conversion to Bolzano-Bozen that such an action would automatically move the pages on Italian names, leaving German names to be redirected to that pages.

However, I think that this should be the fairest of solutions: removing the double names, even if German names are redirected to Italian ones and not vice versa, would also remove the question of "ordering". A user who enters wikipedia and writes "Bolzano" or "Bozen" would automatically be redirected to the right page, which explanes the reason why it is double-named. The actual criteria for choosing an only language for all South Tyrolean pagenames, given the fact that there is no English-translated name, should be that English-talking people searching for the city know or want to know the actual location of the city, which is in Italy. If the name they receive is the German one there is no problem: a page for Bozen will redirect actually in Bolzano, explaining the reason for double names; so will do the page for each one of the South-Tyrolean pages.

Even if I'm Italian and I actually like being it, I think nationalist questions should be left elsewhere on both sides of this barricade. Giving an only name to this page is a matter of knowledge organization (for which wikipedia should be a reference) and not of dominion of a population on the other one that a double-named page strongly shows. If there is no double name, no matter of ordering population will be taken out, and so I think it is the best solution for this problem. The rest of the pages should be also reordered, but I think they may remain the same. Of course the first thing we should put in evidence on the page of each city are the German and Ladin names; maybe someone could also write a page to link in forefront that explains the problem of double names, so to introduce people to reasons for choosing names of a language instead of the other one.

If this reasons are accepted (as I hope, because I think this is a community of reasoning people), therefore I propose the direct moving of this page and of all South-Tyrolean cities to the Italian names, leaving the redirect on German ones - for example: Bozen-Bolzano -> Bolzano, Brixen-Bressanone -> Bressanone etc. Votations are something that should be left to politics, not to something scientific as an encyclopedia.

--Σω 17:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Searching for either the German, Italian or Ladin name should always result in finding the article, and it will if there are redirects. I just found the language distributions from the 2001 (and 1991) census, see page 6. Most of the smaller) municipalities have a >90% German speaking majority (Meran just 51.5%). The exceptions with Italian and Ladin speaking majorities are:

Italian:

Ladin:

I like the idea of moving the articles to the name in the language of the majority, in the absence of a common English name. Comments? Markussep 12:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If we move the pages on the name based on majority of inhabitants speaking a language we're back to the old problem: What if Merano/Meran population suddenly becomes mainly Italian? Do we have to keep watching the census and move the pages? Remember that these pages are mainly for users who don't know something about those cities, and one of the first things to know may be that they are in Italy.
Since there are no English names, removal of double names works only if we choose a common language through all that. Sincerely, English-speaking people who live not in a German area won't receive the German name first, unless they live in the pre-World War I; since the cities are in Italy they would search the Italian name, of course, and so maybe it would be better for encyclopedic uses if all names are turned to Italian. We must think of Wiki-users before than local inhabitants, as Centrx noted on the previous talk.
--Σω 19:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


There is a common English name, just look it up in an English atlas. Anyway, it doesn't exist a city called "Bozen-Bolzano", it's so simple. Just move this article to Bolzano (city) (because that's the English name) or Bozen (so some German wikipedians will not think that they "are always suppressed by i-talians").--Supparluca 07:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there will be many changes in population composition in the near future, and there's only a census once every 10 years. Meran is the only municipality where it's really close (and the German speaking majority was larger in 2001 than in 1991). It doesn't really matter if Wiki-users start searching for the German or the Italian name, if we create redirects from the other name. But I can live with moving all articles to the Italian names. (almost) Anything is better than these bi- and trilingual names. Markussep 17:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a matter of what's more likely to happen, since it is equally possible that in 50 years the population languages do not change or that tomorrow all Italian people in South Tyrol and just them explode altogether leaving only ashes. If we're going to choose a stable criteria, it must not be based on local population which easily come and go (actually I'm not in Bolzano, maybe tomorrow the city becomes Bozen?); instead everything has to be ordered by the language mainly chosen by the entire community which lives not in South Tyrol.
I think I already gave reasons to choose Italian as a first language, but I'd like to support them with these statistical datas:
which show that Bolzano is overall 3 times more common than Bozen - unless obviously all people saying "Bozen" chose together to not write it on the Web. Shall we then start moving things to an only language?
--Σω 18:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but I'll put it on "Requested moves" first. Markussep 20:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (old)

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No decision, default not moved. Please discover some sources that evidence which name is the most commonly used in English. This is the standard of Wikipedia:Naming conventions and is the proper location of an article on the English Wikipedia. Titles should not be hyphenated only to attest to different names; only if "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" were the most common name in English should either be used. After there has been agreement on which name is the most commonly used in English, you may open another Requested move; note that this is not a vote, the reasons are what counts and empty votes with no explanation of reasoning are not productive. —Centrx→talk • 04:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bozen-Bolzano → Bolzano-Bozen – A vote is already underway but survey has not been listed here. See talk page for details. E Asterion u talking to me? 18:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

[edit]

Discussion

[edit]
I don't see how the Italian should enjoy any preference over the German name in this case. All three languages are equal in Trentino-South Tyrol. So should villages with a Ladin majority have the Ladin name first? and then we count the few Italian and German speakers and argue which name comes next? Where does it end? The most simple solution is to go by the equal status, as is given in the United Nations, and list languages alphabetically. That would be the most neutral and fair solution IMO. Gryffindor 18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but Giovanni Ivan Benussi is NOT more mayor, because the Italian government's representant in Bozen-Bolzano chose a special administrative commissioner for the city and this one has already taken Benussi's place today (23th June, 2005). Bye.

Please let's get rid of these horrible bi- and trilingual article names. The article title should be one name, not two or three names in different languages. See for instance Natz - Schabs-Naz - Sciaves, is it Natz in German, Schabs-Naz in Ladin and Sciaves in Italian, or is it Natz-Schabs in German and Naz-Sciaves in Italian? If there is no common name for the place in English, let's take the name that is used by the majority of the population. Take for example the French-Dutch bilingual municipalities of Brussels capital region such as Auderghem (Oudergem in Dutch) and Watermael-Boitsfort (Watermaal-Bosvoorde in Dutch). Of course there should be redirects from the names in other languages, and they should be mentioned in the first line of the article. Markussep 13:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that the hyphenated names should be eliminated, and I think that's what the current naming conventions say too. I don't agree that the preferred name should necessarily be what most of the population of the area use, although in practice that's likely to be the outcome.
The criterion is what most people use when speaking English. This includes people whose native language is not English of course. As many people speak English at least occasionally, in many areas (such as France where English is a compulsory school subject) the local usage of the name in English will drown out any usage by outsiders. Andrewa 06:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The English name of this city is Bolzano, and like Milan and Rome we should use the English name, not the Italian or German or German-Italian name.--Supparluca 08:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bolzano is the Italian name, if anything. Gryffindor 12:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What's the evidence of this? Andrewa 02:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For example, it:Bolzano and www.comune.bolzano.it--Supparluca 07:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm... OK, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I took the comment to which I was replying to imply that Bolzano was not the English name. I don't doubt that it is the Italian name, I don't really care either way. What I'm looking for is evidence as to whether or not people use this name when speaking English. The links given are both to Italian language sites (pretty obviously in the case of Italian Wikipedia!), so they don't help with this.
I'm coming more and more to realise that there is no perfect answer to this one. IMO both names are probably acceptable, but we need to use one or the other. The problem is, to use either has political implications. This is a common problem with place names in multilingual areas. In that we're forced by our software and naming conventions to choose one name for the article, that choice shouldn't be seen as support by English Wikipedia for there even being a preferred name, let alone by implication for the territorial claims of an ethnic group.
I wonder whether perhaps we need to add a section to this effect to the Wikipedia:General disclaimer. Andrewa 07:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One English source that uses the name Bolzano is (English, European map edition of) Microsoft Mappoint (and therefore, I expect Autoroute, etc). -- Ratarsed 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, from my understanding of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements) and the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), the article should be renamed Bolzano (as the single widely accepted English name in modern context)?

Please sign your posts on talk pages, User:Ratarsed (diff). Andrewa 14:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city) and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names (stopped)

[edit]

Currently the article names for South Tyrolian municipalities are bi- and trilingual, resulting in illegible prose like "S. Crestina - Gherdëina-St.Christina in Gröden-Santa Cristina Valgardena is a comune (municipality) in the South Tyrol in the Italian region Trentino-South Tyrol, located about 70 km northeast of Trento and about 30 km east of Bozen-Bolzano." I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names. See also the discussion under #Removal of double names. Markussep 20:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (stopped)

[edit]
  • Oppose This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages. There is a large community of German speakers in Bolzano/Bozen, so I don't think that it's plausible to sever the name to remove the German form.--Húsönd 00:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Changed my stance to neutral.--Húsönd 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not a good idea what is being proposed here. Gryffindor 07:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It's so obvious. 1)The English name is Bolzano 2)"This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages" I don't think so; anyway, Rome has Italian as official language, why don't we call it "Roma"? 3)"There are some Germans who live in Bolzano" so what? There are also some Albanians who live in Bolzano 4)Bolzano is the English name, and even if you don't agree, call this article "Bolzano-Bozen" or "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen-Bulsan-Bocen-Boceno-Bolzan-Bauzanum-Bocenas-Bulsaun-Bolzanu-Buzzanu" is not a solution. Choose: Bolzano (city) or Bozen.--Supparluca 09:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. Bozen-Bolzano is not the name of the city in any language, including English. South Tyrol does have two official languages, but that doesn't make its name Alto Adige-Südtirol. Or Freiburg-Fribourg, or Neuchâtel-Neuenburg, or Enghien-Edingen, or Leeuwarden-Ljouwert. Markussep 16:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I think that the title should rather be "Bolzano/Bozen", instead of with a hyphen. But I cannot support the German form to be removed.--Húsönd 16:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not proposing complete removal of Bozen, just from the article name. There are several contexts in which "Bozen" should be used, for instance pre-1918 history, births, deaths etc. And Bozen will be/stay in the first line of the article, as the German name. BTW the slash doesn't make it better in my opinion, nobody calls it Bozen/Bolzano either. Markussep 16:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit divided now. I checked many other bilingual cities and they seem to bear just one name in the title of their respective articles. I could just change my stance to neutral, but I'm also not very fond of the "(city)" addition, considering that Bolzano/Bozen as city is likely the most common search. BTW, the slash doesn't mean that when referring to the name, both words are to be pronounced (that would happen with the hiphen). The slash just means that two forms exist and you may choose the one you prefer when referring to the city.--Húsönd 17:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Slashes are used in wikipedia to create hierarchy, better not use them in article titles. Markussep 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Oh well, I'll just change my stance to neutral.--Húsönd 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I would like that better as well. I had never heard of the mathematician, and he's disambiguated by his first name anyway. Markussep 21:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please wait before adding more support/Oppose, because of the discussion about changing the question (see below and contribute there). Thanks :-) Fantasy 06:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Approval (not open yet)

[edit]

Please vote for all you find acceptable; tactical voting to produce consensus is encouraged.

Discussion

[edit]

STOP

Sorry if I interrupt, but this is wrong!
You propose
"I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names."
This has to go on a separate page, not on the Bozen-Bolzano page. It is a South Tyrolean issue, so put it there, not here.
Don mix up things, thanks ;-) Fantasy 17:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I fully support to find a solution for all South Tyrolen pages. Please stop doing single moves, this does not help us.
PPS: Someone proposed to move this to somewhere else. This is also not working, because you can not move a move-request. You have to reformulate and the discussion has also to be re-discussed, so simple move does not work. This ist just simply wrong.
It is on a separate page, being WP:RM. Since the name discussion (re)started here about Bolzano, I thought it best to have the move discussion about all South Tyrolean municipalities here.Markussep 17:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but the title clearly says "Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city)". This does not sound to me as an opinion on this could have an influence on all the other pages. The title would have to be "moving double names to single names" and then you would have to list the possibilities like
  • moving to Bozen
  • moving to Bolzano
Why should there be only one option?
You started it a little bit the wrong way. Maybe if you rethink about what you/we want to achieve we find a way all can agree on how to preceed. But for now I would strongly recommend to stop this kind of opinion poll before you don't have a good question people can give their opinion on. Fantasy 21:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it perfectly clear? My proposal is to move all municipalities to their Italian names. Since Bolzano is taken by a disambiguation page (there's a mathematician Bolzano), that's an exception. If it makes you feel better, I'll change the title. BTW this proposal is the result of a discussion I had some days ago (see below). That's why I didn't include other options, such as everything German, or everything to the name in the majority language of the municipality. Markussep 21:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is still some room for discussion, see above. This is essentially, however, a simple question: double name or single name? The approval poll will be a bit of a problem for the closing admin, but not too big a one. I doubt the wisdom of a !vote on all South Tyrolean names; there may be different arguments for Bolzano and for some barely notable hamlet on the side of an Alp; but I would bear this in mind when voting on the hamlet's article. Septentrionalis 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article should be moved to whatever its most common denomination in English is (lest we forget, this is English Wikipedia). The page move request should not be about moving everything to its Italian name by default. I cannot vote for this as it stands after the title change. Asteriontalk 21:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; but I also think Bolzano is far more common than Bozen. Let's start with google:
Depending on how you count, that's either four or eight to one. Septentrionalis 21:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't use simple answers to complicated questions

[edit]

The problem is, that for some places in South Tyrol the german name is more common, for some the italian. How do we decide what name is used for what place?

In South Tyrol we have officially two languages. How do you want to decide which one is more important.

Simply saying "lets take italian" means: I come from a place where 0 Null zero no niente Italians are living. Its a german place. No one uses the invented italian name. It did not exist until an italian came and tried to impose it without success. And now WIkipedia comes and imposes the italian name on all german speaking people in that place?

Think about what power Wikipedia has, and what you are doing to the minorities with simple answers to complicated questions. Fantasy 22:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have agreed this discussion is *only* about Bolzano. As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English is should be chosen. Regards, Asteriontalk 22:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is a too simple answer. You can not change one South Tyrolean name (the main city!) without influencing the rest. It's a wrong milestone. We need a Solution for all names of South Tyrol. "As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English " is the wrong answer. You mean, we have 2000 discussions like this in 2000 pages??!! That is not a solution. Or do you really mean that?! Fantasy 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fantasy, you're reasoning in terms of the place where you live, not from a neutral point of view. It is equally obvious that in a place in Italy where no one speaks German everyone will refer to the city as Bolzano and not Bozen.
Again, choosing a language on the other is NOT a matter of offending a people instead of another one. I personally think only very stupid people will offend themselves just because on an encyclopedia - which tends to be general - of another language it is preferred the name of a language instead of the other one. There is simply no political meaning behind that, whereas the title "Bozen-Bolzano" displays it a more clear preponderance of a group to another one.
To me - and to all reasoning people, I think - makes absolutely NO difference if the language chosen for ALL cities in South Tyrol is German or Italian ('cause the proposal of Markussep was just the start of this global convertion process). The reasons why Italian should be a better choice are widely explained in a previous topic.
I sincerely think that when the page will be moved to an only language, indifferently whether it would be German or Italian, all those questions of "offending" a part of the population will be quite completely forgotten.
Finally, you will see that you're the only one that's turning that problem to a gigantic size, by opening several threads trying to complicate something that is really simple when viewed from a logical side. Here there should be no space for nationalisms, from both sides. Making a final report on what we've found since now:
  • double and triple names should be removed, since:
    • 1. they show a priority of a language to another;
    • 2. they create ridiculously long pagenames, which on an encyclopedia - an organized system of notions that tends to be strict and direct - should be avoided at first.
  • the name should be chosen based on naming conventions, which consider the English-speaking community and the overall-speaking community.
  • answering to Gryffindor arguments, the English name is not necessarily a translated one, since in every language there are a lot of words taken from other languages which have become also part of the new language (for example, in Italian there is no other word for "computer", so "computer" has become an official Italian word). The language is born not by scientifically analizing the terms, but by common use and acceptance of certain words.
  • therefore the choice for the English wikipedia should be done based on popularity of the name. Google is a good statistical instrument for that sake. By looking at google.com you may see that quite all little cities in South Tyrol have equal pagecounts, with little prevalence of a language on another (for example, Meran has more pages than Merano, Brunico more than Bruneck, Vipiteno more than Sterzing, Brixen more than Bressanone etc). But for all towns where Italian-speaking people are more than German-speaking one the pagecounts are enormously unbalanced on Italian side - Bolzano has 3 times the pagecounts of Bozen, Laives 2.5 times the ones of Leifers, Bronzolo 2 times the ones of Branzoll, Salorno 1.5 times the ones of Salurn.
  • since there is such a great unbalance on names, based on the obvious reason that Italian names of Italian cities are more widely spread among the entire speaking community, therefore the Italian names should be preferred for ALL South Tyrolean cities.
We're not considering local disputes, which are left to people who cannot see further than their own nose. From the possibly widest point of view, South Tyrol is still part of Italy, and since this is not a South Tyrolean wikipedia but an English one - I'd rather say international - we should forget that double language problem.
If you find reasons for German names to be chosen instead of Italian, well, you may explain it here and discuss with the others. But the reiteration of things you continue to say from months without reading what the others write is not discussion. I think that people from Germany or from other parts of Italy don't even care of those double names, which are a problem taken out by German-speaking Southtyroleans first and Italian-speaking Southtyroleans second. Septentrionalis and Markussep easily agreed for the remotion of double names and the choice of an only language (which I previously supposed should be Italian); I think they are no Southtyroleans at all, and then may gain a much more neutral point of view rather than people who lives or lived in South Tyrol like me and you. Should we continue forever by complicating these stupid (sorry for the aggressive term) problems?
--Σω 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This request violets NPOV, the first rule Wikipedia is based on!

[edit]

Just to remind everyone, the principal Wikipedia is based on (NPOV) states:

"all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, that is, they must represent all significant views fairly and without bias."

This is not an option, it is a must.

South Tyroleans had to endure torture and death to get german and italian officially as equal languages.

The City of Bolzano-Bozen has two official names. The only neutral way of naming it is by both names.

  • move to Bolzano -> you offend the german speaking people
  • move to Bozen -> you offend the italian speaking people

Wikipedia hast to be Neutral, it should never be used for political interrests. And Wikipedia does not really have a problem with names of an article being Bolzano-Bozen, this problem is irrelevant compared to the political issue.

If you care about the fundaments Wikipedia is based on, don't let people use Wikipedia for their political interests, Neutrality is everything. Fantasy 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: And, in the end, you lie to Wikipedai-readers if you make them believe that it has one name only. Wikipedia should not be used to disseminate lies, the world is already full of it, dont fill WIkipedia as well.

That is not the point. Seville's official name in Spanish is Sevilla. Nonetheless, its name in English is still Seville. It is not about sensibilities in that sense. In the same way, in English we say Geneva and not Genève-Genf-Ginevra-Ginebra. The NPOV policy applies to the content of the article. You cannot make a title NPOV, you have to choose whatever its English denomination is (and Bozen-Bolzano or viceversa does not seem to be). Best regards, Asteriontalk 06:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"you have to choose whatever its English denomination is " Who sais that? That is your opinion. NPOV is not an opinion and applies to the whole article. The name is part of the content/message. Fantasy 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names). Asteriontalk 06:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I know that page, it states:
"Please note these conventions for naming settlements are merely guidelines, not rules written in stone ... The primary goal of this naming convention is to achieve consistency within each country . It does not necessarily achieve complete consistency across countries. Hence the remainder of the page is divided into specific guidelines for individual countries where required."
There is no entry for South Tyrol. That is what I am saying all the time. We need a guideline for South Tyrol, not moving pages around. Requests for move do not help us in any way.
If you are interrested in Working together with others in Wikipedia, then help establishing a South Tyrolean Guideline, not boykotting it by doing here a move, there a move, irritating everyone. Fantasy 07:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I am offline until next week, due to a congress (de:Connichi), sorry.

I think it is ludicruous to try to force a single name "in English". There is an Italian version and there is a German version, both of which are official and equal. So both versions are correct. Obviously a solution has to be found that can satisfy both sides, instead of forcing one version on the other. Because if you change one city, what about the other ones, it would be a complete mess? Gryffindor 07:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, because you yourself have pushed for a single name in English for the Province of Bolzano (i.e. your South Tyrol). I've never witnessed such hypocritical behavior...
I see I opened Pandora's box here. It's not my intention to suppress minorities or something like that. I hope that most users understand that the present double or triple names are unworkable and unencyclopedic. Equal official status of two names doesn't mean that both names must be used all the time. I don't really care which name is chosen, but a choice must be made! The idea of making a guideline for it is fine with me. Markussep 08:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And I think the current way is a good equilibrium. It has both the Italian and the German version in it, why try to force a version that many of the local inhabitants would see as "colonial" and "fascist"? I am not from that area, but I am very much aware of the sensitivities surrounding this issue and I think we need to thread very carefully here. Gryffindor 09:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals

[edit]

Please, Markussep, could you just change the title of the requested move ("Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city) and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names" ==> "Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city)") so we can continue the survey? --Supparluca 11:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to start this circus for all 116 municipalities in South Tyrol separately, because that's an incredible waste of time for everyone. I'm going to make a better proposal soon. Markussep 12:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why not do two or three test cases and then make a mass proposal, citing them as evidence of consensus?
I agree firmly with moving to single names in all cases, but English may not be consistent in which single name. Tyrol itself is an example, and google confirms my intuition that Brixen is slightly more common than Bressanone. Septentrionalis 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I actually anticipated you and did that here. I tested Google on a certain number of important citynames in South Tyrol, and as a result there is a sort of balance (NOT preponderance) on cities where German is the main language; instead, in cities where Italian is the main language there is a big prevalence for the Italian name.
The reason might be that the biggest part of the province, where German-speakers are the most, consists in places which are quite rural and detached, so they don't spread the German names in many places outside their homes. That obviously make the Italian names more proper for the task.
Also I add that, since South Tyrol is an Italian province, even the places for tourists have to learn a little Italian; where most of Italian Southtyroleans, knowing they're in Italy, don't actually have the need to learn German for their living.
These things are something normal for the local people; German Southtyroleans don't feel themselves "German", they feel "Southtyrolean". Italian Southtyroleans feel themselves Italian and Southtyrolean.
--Σω 16:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Bressanone was probably more notable in the eighteenth century, when it was the capital of a sovereign bishopric, than it is now; and anglophones called it Brixen then. The usage survives. Septentrionalis 17:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You'll probably find different results if you only search in English books or scientific articles. I think it's safe to say that except for Bolzano, Meran and maybe Brixen there are few places in South Tyrol that are frequently mentioned in English language publications. You're right BTW, my only connection with South Tyrol is that I spent some days in Meran in '95 (nice town). IMO, there are three consistent ways to name all municipalities:

A - all Italian (rationale: they're in Italy)

B - all German (rationale: German speaking majority in South Tyrol)

C - all in the language of the local majority (103 German, 5 Italian, 8 Ladin, see my 2001 census based list here: #Removal of double names)

Exceptions should be made for towns that have a single widely used name in English. Shall we put this up for a survey? Markussep 17:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oops; I did search English only, and posted the wrong URL; I hope that's fixed now. I would prefer to make the exception: where a preference in English usage can be determined; but that's still going to exclude most places. (The only case where English preference is obvious, outside the big towns, is Brenner.) I think this would be a reasonable poll, however. Septentrionalis 19:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New survey about move

[edit]

I have started a new survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol, in which I hope to reach better article titles for all municipalities in South Tyrol. Please add your contribution there. Markussep 18:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the survey in a nutshell: if there's a commonly used name for the place in English, use that. Otherwise (given the fact that there are several official names for all municipalities in South Tyrol) use the name in the majority language spoken in that municipality. Markussep 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Bolzano. There is clearly a majority of people here. Most people want the name of the article to be Bolzano. Since we can't really ever get full consensus with a debate of this size, supermajority is the way to go. —Mets501 (talk) 14:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move to Bolzano; September 2006

[edit]

Bozen-Bolzano → Bolzano – See also the survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. The Italian name "Bolzano" was chosen, but Bolzano is currently a disambiguation page, which could/should move to Bolzano (disambiguation). Markussep 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

[edit]

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

I don't agree. The official name is Bolzano, rarely I see Bolzano Bozen, but never Bozen-Bolzano.--Supparluca 11:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The official name is not "Bozen-Bolzano", it's Bozen and/or Bolzano, dependent on the language used. Markussep 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do we actually have clear references that say what is the official name? At least the street signs say Bolzano-Bozen. Taalo 23:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
At least it's been said: Bozen-Bolzano (or Bolzano-Bozen) doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Markussep has put it clearly, Bozen and/or Bolzano is the correct name. Or are we going to do the same thing with Tetovo, renaming it Tetovo-Tetova, or Gostivar, renaming it Gostivar-Gostivari?--Aldux 13:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you want to know it, I live in Bolzano, but that's not important. The point is that the people who suggest to use the Italian names for the Southtyrolean cities tend to give only logical reasons, whereas the people who suggest to use the German names say something like "I have a problem with using a name that has been imposed by a colonising power on the local population".--Supparluca 07:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dieter, did you want to Oppose? Septentrionalis 19:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure - I think, Bolzano-Bozen is the best choice, because there are mot italian speaking people in the city then german speaking. For the rest: my english is not good enough for discussing on a higher level - I think, my previous message was not as clear as I hoped to write - I felt misunderstood. Sorry... DieterFink 09:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Side note here - I work with Rarelibra, but I have a valid vote. I primarily use wiki for referencing geographical information in our workplace and everyday jobs. I guess I just didn't have a lot of interest about edits until he was telling me about this situation. Seems so foolish to argue so much - give it the proper name. But please do not associate me with Rarelibra except the workplace. We have separate viewpoints many times, but this time I thought I would pass along my opinion. Vargwilku 22:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

[edit]

Add any additional comments.

It was decided at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol that article titles for places in South Tyrol should not be bilingual. Bolzano has a Italian speaking majority (73%), and the Italian name is one of the official names of the city. "Bolzano" is more used in English than "Bozen". Both these arguments imply that "Bolzano" is preferable.

The reason that Bolzano is a disambiguation page, is the Czech mathematician Bernard Bolzano. Markussep 14:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be so kind to point out exactly where it was decided what, in Talk:Communes of South Tyrol? I can not find any consensus.--Panarjedde 20:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If by consensus you mean 100% agreement, there isn't any. However, there is a big enough majority (62% including your vote in favour of double names) against double names. See the talk page. Markussep 21:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
May be I am wrong, but proposal A is 7-1, proposal B is 6-2, proposal C is 7-4, and proposal D is 5-8 (votes for-votes against). I do not see how anyone can claim consensus on this.--Panarjedde 23:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal D was the only one with double names, and 5:8 is a clear majority against proposal D. As you'll see at Talk:Communes_of_South_Tyrol#Which_single_name.3F the discussion about which single name to be used was split into several categories. The final result is close to proposal C, but not exactly the same. Markussep 17:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

City website

[edit]

Currently there are two versions of the city website that are exactly the same page (www.gemeinde.bozen.it and www.comune.bolzano.it). Isn't it better to leave just the Italian version, since that page is already "bilingual" (see also Aosta (Italian-French), which has one version)?--Supparluca 20:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added both in that case to be fair to both sides. Gryffindor 11:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Province

[edit]

The city Bolzano-Bozen is in IS the province of Bolzano (BZ). How can someone list the Province as South Tyrol. That is getting out of control with the German POV.

Better check your data before you start edit wars. According to the province's website, its Italian name is "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige, and its German name is "Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol". "South Tyrol" seems to me a reasonable name for the province (I'm not German BTW). You should sign your posts, you can do that using ~~~~. Markussep 19:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am not attempting to start any edit war, I'm pointing out what is the truth. Anyone in Italy will no that this province is the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ). Just as the one below it is the Province of Trento (TN). The REGION that the Provinces of TN and BZ are in is Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. No offense, but it seems to you South Tyrol is a reasonable name for the province? This sounds kind of silly, when the name of the province is in fact based on the largest cities name. You have to realize that there is a long history on the WP of Austrisns (namely Gryffindor) that have pushed for a naming convention on WP that emphasize a German POV. We should at least be fair, considering Alto Adige/Sudtirol is a mixed Austrian/Italian region, and has been for centuries. Taalo 19:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Page should be moved

[edit]

This page should be moved to Bolzano-Bozen. The city is in Italy, so the Italian name should come first. That, and that is the official name of the city, capturing both the Italian and German names for the city, since the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) is ethnically mixed. Taalo 20:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gryffindor

[edit]

I don't mean to make a personal attack on this individual, but the method that he has systematically had Bolzano-Bozen renamed as Bozen-Bolzano. The Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) now referred to as the Province of South Tyrol.. and the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol referred to as Trentino-South Tyrol is quite creepy, to say the least. I read in the discussion above where Gryffindor writes, "I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further." Yes, of course he doesn't want to push it anymore, because it is now how he desires it (i.e. his own harmony). This process has been of the most scary I've seen on the WP and actually is foremost the type of "work" that discredits this project. Taalo 20:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move to Bolzano-Bozen

[edit]

Bozen-Bolzano → Bolzano-Bozen – Ok, so first of all, this city is in Italy. The Italian name is Bolzano. This is the name used commonly on English maps, etc. There is no English equivalent to Bolzano (Italian) or Bozen (German). As this is an Italian city, in a mixed Italian-German area, it makes sense to me that we list both names as Italian-German. This is not to step on anyone's toes, it shouldn't matter what is first or second (though it appears to have mattered to some...). Anyway, if you even see the main sign entering Bolzano-Bozen.. it says just that: BOLZANO-BOZEN. So, lets please not use Bolzano, Italy; Bozen, Italy, Bozen-Bolzano, Bozen, Bolzano. Please use what is used in the region: Bolzano-Bozen. Now let the POVs, I mean discussions, begin. :) Taalo 08:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

[edit]

no sockpuppets please A user or two look suspicious below. If anyone is trying to help either side, know this won't help in the end. I really appreciate anyone trying to help make things right again, but this ain't the way. Lets not be so serious either on here, ok? If there are sockpuppet accounts, just say so, and you have to buy the first round of beers if any of us ever meet in the region. va bene? ok? I like the Forst beer. :) Taalo 00:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Come on Supparluca. This is a special case. Let's not press down the Italian or German name in this situation, as Austria-Hungary did, or the Fascist Gov't did. If you visit, all the cities are Italian-German. We can bend the convention a little bit.. :-) Taalo 07:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you at least give some feedback?? :) Taalo 07:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not again. I'm getting really irritated by all these move requests, you started this one just 5 days after I posted mine. We already had a survey about it, and found an elegant and fairly neutral solution. Double names are not accepted by the majority of the participants (most of whom are not part of the German-Austrian conspiracy). You just choose to ignore our counterarguments (see the French Canada and Macedonia examples). Let's clean up the mess and merge the move requests to one. Markussep 15:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, do you want to support the move to Bolzano or the move to Bolzano-Bozen?--Supparluca 20:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This city is in Italy and majority of its population speak Italian, thus I do not see one single reason to have German name first. South Tyrol is autonomous entity and I do not see a problem if German names are used for the places of South Tyrol in which majority of population speak German. But this city is not one of those places. By using German name here as first, we discriminating Italians in their own country (and as I said, they are majority in this city, not Germans). PANONIAN (talk) 21:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, as I've said before. In theory it is an approach. In practical implementation it is kind of crazy. The example of Merano-Meran where the population is 50/50. We would have to possibly monitor annually. Also, just because Germans are a minortiy in Bolzano-Bozen, I do not want to remove either name. They are both correct in this special province of Italy. I for one do not want to, under any circumstances, go with an extreme solution like is in place already. I.e., lets not go to that level. thanks a lot for your participation, seriously. Taalo 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you say what you prefer Gryffi? Taalo 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

[edit]

JUST SO EVERYONE can see how neutral are friend Gryffindor is in this debate, please refer to: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Bozen-Bolzano_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Clogs.29 Real ethical of you there buddy. Non-sense names, eh? Thanks for showing your true colours. Oh yeah, I'm assuming that good faith! Taalo 10:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are many links that have been added to the talk pages on Trentino-South Tyrol and South Tyrol. Please refer to these to see that actually Bolzano is the most used term in English. Regardless, I strongly favour going with the Italian-German Bolzano-Bozen. I mean, this is just how it is done in this particular region of Italy -- foremost to respect our Italian AND German heritage. Can't everyone just compromise on this so we can all be somewhat content?? Taalo 09:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.bolzano-bozen.it/

http://www.comune.bolzano.it/

http://www.gemeinde.bozen.it/

  • (reposted from South Tyrol talk) Here we go: My hypothesis to why a lot of this debate is going on is the following. If this region was not part of Italy now, but instead was part of Austria, in all likelyhood the Province would be called Sudtirol (aka South Tyrol). If the ethnic Italians would have enjoyed the same rights as the ethnic Germans now do, we will never know. That said, I commend that the German people of the region stood up for their rights, and that we have the situation we have now, the people who have lived here for centuries (Italians and Germans) living in peace. Going back to the hypothetical argument that if Austria had retained control after the breakup of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. If the local Italians would have no say, most likely the province would of been called the Province of Sudtirol (as this is the common way to name provinces in Austria). The cities would of likely retained only their German names: Meran, Bozen, Brixen, etc., etc. As I have ancestors from Austria, I sincerely hope that they would of done a mirror of what exists in Italy now (i.e., naming cities Bozen-Bolzano, Meran-Merano, etc.). But I can only hope and guess. Now, the reality of how things did come to end is that the Italian gov't has control of the region. The Italian convention of naming provinces is by the major city of the province (and I've gone over this a lot above, and I find it hard to see now this is debatable). So, therefore the province (by this simple method) is called the Province of Bolzano (or Provinz Bozen in German). In fact, I find it even harder to believe that any average neutral non-political guy/gal in Bolzano/Bozen will not agree the province is called Bolzano/Bozen. Now, what I find disturbing in all of this, and I'll let you all be the judge, is when I see an insistence by primarily Austrian/German individuals (and mostly all not even from the region) to call the province Province of South Tyrol, the region Trentino-South Tyrol, and work on making the city names either Brenner, Italy or Bozen-Bolzano -- I feel sickened. Why? If you read the basic history I have outlined, I hope you can see that this mindset would be what an extremist minority would hope to convey -- because for all intents and purposes -- it is the naming convention that would of existed had Austria retained this area! Now, I know not everyone who is supporting using South Tyrol is German/Italian/etc., so don't blindside me with that argument please. I'm not trying to generalize or accuse German/Austrians. I'm just pointing out what I have seen. Anway, to me, whose family is from this region, I find this discusting that individuals would try to migrate the names to a would of been convention. Sorry, but that is my opinion. I have absolutely no problem with the history of the region (as long as it is done fairly). My culture is Trentino/Tirol/Tirolese. My background has "Italian" and "Austrian" roots.. though by far if you look in the archives and cemetaries, much of all our roots are firmly from Rome and Latin. This is really a family squable, because the people are all the same. I have Italian relatives that are blonde-blue eyed and look similar to user Fantasy. :) I have others that are dark haired and darker skin. All these relatives have their family tree tracable for literally centuries through the local churches. Anyway, by rights, and going by the rules of Wikipedia the cities should be in Italian, the region should be Trento-Alto Adige to preserve neutrality and the province should be the Province of Bolzano. But this risks a war going on forever, especially from those who have these extreme views I detailed before. So going all Italian is not a good way (and I don't buy this English in English wikipedia -- these places do not have straightforward English names. I am a native English speaker, I have some clue on this!). Going with the ultra-South-Tyrol mode of trying to move everything to how it might of been if the Austrian Gov't would of retained control is even worse --- far worse. Downright horrendous in fact. That is why I have said over and over again, for this special region in Italy, use the Italian-German as has been actually used in the region. The cities can be Bolzano-Bozen or Bolzano (Bozen). The province can be Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano (Bozen). I would prefer to have the region as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Something that maintains neutrality. People saying that the area is South Tyrol in English when arguing the province should be Province of South Tyrol are either absolutely oblivious to the history and reality of this region or are trying to push through a German POV. Anyway, I hope my small dissertation :) has helped a little bit to understand the cities, provinces, regions, and issues this brings up. The culture of this region is sharing.. everyone needs to back the heck up and realize this, and also think of how this page can be the most neutral and fair. Not an attempt to re-write history through WP or fantasies of the province being part of Greater Austria. Life is too short, doesn't this simple-minded stuff not get old? To the individuals who made it their purpose in life to start this a year ago.. come on guys, go down and visit the rivers and mountains and -- RELAX. regards. Taalo 23:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is very obvious here that consensus is to support the move. As the rules state, this move should be accomplished soon. If we need further assistance to do so, well, that is one of our options. Rarelibra 13:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus??? I see a majority for "Bolzano", see the combined result of the two surveys below. Markussep 17:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Combined result of the two surveys

[edit]

This is the combined result of the two surveys about the title for the article currently named Bozen-Bolzano, as of 17:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC).

  • Bozen-Bolzano (current situation):
  • Bolzano (move request d.d. 29-09-06):
    • 8.67: Markussep, Supparluca, Asterion, AjaxSmack, Septentrionalis, Eugène van der Pijll, Tridentinus, Aldux, Calair (1st pref)
  • Bolzano-Bozen (move request d.d. 04-10-06):
    • 5.33: Attilios, Taalo, DieterFink, Rarelibra, PANONIAN, Calair (2nd pref)
  • unclear:
    • 2: Gryffindor, Vargwilku

Please change your vote if I misinterpreted it. Markussep 17:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice job Markussep. I still hope we can maintain Bozen in the title. Give double naming a chance! :> Taalo 19:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that the double naming is used only here in the whole wikipedia. In ALL similar conditions where the whole country or parts of it were bilinguistic (Belgium, Macedonia, Romania [Transilvania], Germany [Schleswig-Holstein], Switzerland, Ukraine, Finland, canada and so on), only one name was adopted for the title of the article. I have a lot of experince with naming disputes, but I've never seen this solution adopted.--Aldux 21:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let's break new ground man! LOL... ok, seriously, I understand your point, and I also see how this could lead into new complications. Names that go on forever is one, the European Union would arguably have to be hyphenated for each of the member-state languages. Or you would have to set limits to a two or three name max, which would also be sort of a fuzzy rule. However, just because it hasn't been a solution before, shouldn't mean that we disregard it as a possible solution here and now. It is just my opinion, but I don't like the Italian nor German name to be used only. I don't like the idea of randomly thought-up naming conventions such as choosing the name based on current ethnic majority either. So that would likely lead to the situation where we go with only the Italian names, and this will cause future conflicts, not be neutral, etc., Especially since there are no equivalent English names really. The German looks more like English in many cases, but it is not English. Of course on the other hand, I love the argument Supparluca makes in his first paragraph... :) If the World could only work that well. take care. Taalo 23:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We need a global solution

[edit]

I feel that both solutions are completely wrong; one name must be chosen, Bozen or Bolzano, and this must be done for all the towns of South Tyrol. In a very similar case, like that concerning the Albanian towns of Republic of Macedonia, it was opted to chose the name used by major ethnic group; but I would also support a solution by which the Italian majority towns are called with Italian names and German majority towns are called with German names. This criterion is followed for the province, that is not called South Tyrol-Upper Adige, but simply, and correctly, South Tyrol.--Aldux 23:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, where do you get this my friend. The province is called Bolzano / Bozen. The area/region is Alto Adige/Sudtirol/South Tyrol. Region vs. Province. Province vs. Region. I'm gonna go crazy. :) Also, even though in theory it may sound good to use the Italian name for Italian majority cities and the German name for German name cities, in practice this is just madness. Some cities like Merano-Meran are nearly 50/50. Are we going to monitor the babies born annually and update the names? Come on now. Also, even though Bolzano is ~75% "Italian", I see no reason not to also list the name Bozen which has it's own cultural significance, and is actually closer to the original Roman name. So please rethink an idea from a practical perspective on how it can be reasonbly implemented. I still say: Bolzano (Bozen) Bolzano-Bozen. It ain't that complex guys. ... and for the love of God, please realize the Province's name is Bolzano in Italian and Bozen in German. Grazie, Danke, ciao,.. cya. Taalo 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, the present solution is absolutely unreasonable. There is hardly a place in wikipedia in which such a policy as the one displayed here for naming cities. If there is one thing I've learned by editing in the Balkans, is that you can't make everybody happy, and that the interests of the general community and those of the local editors can be in contrast; and we should use the former, not the latter.--Aldux 00:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But there is no present solution. :) Well, I'm proposing a neutral stance, listing both names as they actually do in the province. Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner. I mean, this is straight down the middle. If people can't grow up and learn to at least live with that, then neutral admins need to come in. Do you at least see my point that trying to name things all by their ethnic majority is just not practical? Also, I disagree these are even different ethnic people. The people have all been here for centuries, the languages and rulers have revolved around them. anyway, thanks for joining in. Taalo 01:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
South Tyrol is incorrect, that is the whole point of this debate. Fair and square, the names should be as the Italian government put forth - remember what Panonian said (a good point at that) - to leave it in only the germanic form would be to discriminate against the Italians in their own country and language. That should be enough in itself to cancel all of this discussion and to end this debate and to correct the format to either "Trentino-Alto Adige" or "Trentino-Sudtirol". If you want to keep the "Trentino-South Tyrol", well, you MUST make concession by allowing the "South Tyrol" change to "Bolzano". Plainly stated, it IS the name of the region. Rarelibra 00:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, this isn't something new, fellow wikipedians. Look at all of the other examples - there is a part of Germany that used to be part of Poland before WWII. The town names are in German. There is a part of Poland that used to be part of Russia before WWII. The town names are in Polish. So we aren't removing the history from the region, nor the cultural diversity of its background. But the region is now in Italy, and there are Italian names set forth. Don't talk about "colonization" or "occupation". The Italian government maintains control (albeit that it is an autonomous region). It wasn't "colonization" - the populace adapted and now mostly speak Italian. Just like the former Poles who are now speaking German (and who are German citizens), and the former Russians who are now speaking Polish (and are Polish citizens). The list could go on and on and on. Rarelibra 03:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree with the intention of your post, I want to point out that parts of Germany became Polish/Soviet (Russian/Lithuanian) and parts of Poland became Soviet (Lithuanian/Ukrainian/Belarusian), not the other way around. See Territorial changes of Poland after World War II if you are interested. Olessi 03:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I meant (it was late last night, and I was tired - got them mixed around). So yeah - part of Russia (then the Soviet Union, now Ukraine) was part of Poland, and the cities - they are in Russian/Ukrainian. And to call other examples, while talking about the Soviet Union, would be to call out cities in Kazakhstan (which are in Kazak, not Russian), or cities in Kyrgyzstan (which are in Kyrgyz), or cities in Azerbaijan (which are in Azerbaijani]], etc. Rarelibra 13:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this. I will definitely look into it even more, but I believe this story that propogates that the "Italians" came in and occupied the region during WW2 is false -- and boils down to politics. It is a lousy way to say some people belong and other do not. From what I've gathered, the people have stayed mostly the same -- and adapted -- as you put it Rarelibra. I'm not trying to ignore the fact that some people were pushed out and other came in during that time. But it wasn't the massive colonization/occupation that one side is trying to portray. Fascism wasn't half as efficient as Nazism (?) -- luckily. Mussolini asked for the Jewish to be thrown out, but if you see the history, for the most part the Italians shrugged and went about their business. If Mussolini asked people to move to Bolzano, some may have, but the vast majority of Italians would typically have it go in one ear, and out the other. People don't even like to move from one village to another 1 mile down the road! Finally, the idea of "German" and "Italian" in this region (and many regions in this area) is more political than real ethnicity. For the most part, the people are of the region, and have been for centuries. Taalo 03:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Gonna bail for a bit. I've spend way too much time this past day and a half on this. I feel like I have talked too much also. :) I assume this process will be discussed at least for a week or two. I'll check back later. Just hope an actually valuable discussion/learning experience comes out of this -- for everyone (me too :) Taalo 04:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • (copied from Trentino-South Tyrol): I'll provide this link I dug up. http://www.trinstitute.org/ojpcr/1_3kag.htm This does show that there were roughly 73,000 Italians that moved up to Bolzano-Bozen to help build hydroelectric plants. The only thing I can feel happy about this lousy time was that it appears the majority of "Germans" who were going to emigrate, ended up staying afterall. At least this is good to know that no one was cleansed out -- but there does appear to be many new families who moved in. I guess this fits with what I've seen in the churches/cemetaries at least -- that the original people have stuck around. My only point of contention then is that I still disagree with this strict term of "German" or "Italian" -- often based on language. I still believe the people of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol are a people.. and the "German" or "Italian" is actually a lot due to the rulers who have come and gone. Also, the people are definitely a mix of Roman, Germanic, etc., etc. -- so I really just can't agree that there is a "German" people in Bolzano and an "Italian" people in Trento. All in all, the cultures are almost identical.. and a lot of the dialects (that are actually used more than Italian or German) interweave. Anyway, I hope you all take this history lesson in good faith. I for one learned something more about what happened to my neighbors/cousins over the hill. Regardless, lets try to come up with a neutral position that respects this region and the people -- and indeed the new ones that arrived during those bad days some 70 years ago. That said, my current feeling goes to: cities: Italian-German (this is multiethnic Italy); using the proper Province of Bolzano-Bozen (with a page or section describing South Tyrol/Sudtirol) and maybe we do this page as Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol? Then we follow what is in the maps of the World (i.e., we do not go against the grain of what is really out there on maps, britannica, etc.), while respecting the Tirolese culture. I don't think this name is too confusing. How do you all think? Ok, now I really got to get work done.. damnit. :) Taalo 05:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Although the region "Trentino-Alto Adige" was not abolished, its name was changed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" and most of its important powers were taken away and transferred to the two provinces South Tyrol and Trentino." I really hope this author is giving an accurate account. So does this mean both names are in effect? Also, "Until the present, German and Ladin speakers did not distinguish between Italians in South Tyrol and Italians in general. Most of the people did not even distinguish between the Italian people and the Italian government. There is no awareness of the two distinct levels of the conflict. But Italians in South Tyrol can no longer be seen only as the invaders and as tools of the Italianization politics. After living in the province since the 1930s, or at least since the 1950s, they consider South Tyrol to be their homeland too. Their offspring were born there, went to school there and work there. Italians became, over the years, Italian-speaking South Tyroleans." Anyway, that is really a great historical article, if it is accurate. I don't know, I've given credit to the Trentino-South Tyrol folks, without them actually doing any research. :) I still think though, to be fair with what is on the maps, etc... more and more Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol makes the most sense. Again, with the cities, we really should use both names. The province, it is hard to argue with what exists.. i.e. the Province of Trento and the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I like Olessi's idea the best to have a subpage or something describing South Tyrol. Man, for sure I did not like what the Austrians did in the 1800's to the Italians of Trentino... and no more do I like what the Italian Gov't did to the people of Bolzano-Bozen in the 1900's. I hope you all who are from this region can at least realize that many of us have been around here back when we were even all under Rome. I still consider all the people of this region brothers/sisters/cousins. regards. Taalo 06:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The way!

[edit]

I don't understand why I should write this, since it seems to me that there are a lot of intelligent people here, and I'm not an Einstein.

I think that the problem is that you want to be as neutral as possible, right? How could we be neutral? It's simple, we can just apply the naming conventions (not because they are conventions, but because they are good conventions, and they should settle controversies) to all the articles about cities, and also for the Southtyrolean cities.

If we do so, when an Italian will ask "Hey! You chose the German names. So does it mean that you think that the German people are better and that I have to kill myself?" we can reply "Nooo! We just applied the naming conventions, in a logical way!" and he will agree, and will not kill himself; when a German will ask "Hey! You chose the Italian names. So does it mean that Italy is super-power and that I have to kill my family because they aren't true Romans?" we can reply "Nooo! We just applied the naming conventions, in a logical way!" and he will agree, and will not kill his family.

So, step 1: the naming conventions say: "Use the name that English speaking people are more likely to use (even if it is an incorrect name)."

Ok, it's obvious that English speaking people are more likely to use the Italian names for the Southtyrolean cities. But some users don't agree (without any proof, of course).

Step 2: "If there isn't a common English name, use the current local name."

I don't think this step is needed, but if we need that, Ok, we should move all the articles about the Southtyrolean cities to the Italian names.

This is the only way, if you want to be neutral and correct and you want to have consistency whith the rest of the encycolpedia. If you want to make the minorities and/or the majorities happy, well, you can have 100 names per city, and there will be always someone who will complain.--Supparluca 12:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant reply Supparluca. At least your first paragraph. :-) The only problem though is both step 1 and 2 are not easy to figure out really. I know some people really dislike the double names, but my opinion would still be Italian-German, as is on the signs in the region. You don't know how much I agree that either side should relax, that there is no war here for cultural domination, etc. I fear that not everyone can quite feel confortable with that yet.. Taalo 17:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Calling it 'Bolzano-Bozen' helps people get along on this page, but works against that globally. As Supparluca says, having a convention and sticking to it limits offence - a German reader might be disappointed not to see 'Bozen', but will understand that it's not an anti-German step, just a convention. He can go look at other pages and see the same convention followed there, when it favours German names and when it doesn't. If we break that convention here, it undermines it elsewhere - if Timbuktu has half a dozen ethnic groups each with their own name for the place, each and every one of them can look at Bolzano-Bozen and argue that they should get the same treatment. And then we end up with a page called Timbuktu-Wagga Wagga-Back Of Burke-Albuquerque-Outer Woop Woop-Evenmore and start arguing about what order those names should be listed in... I think it's better to follow the convention than to look for complete coverage in the title. The place for inclusiveness and completeness is in the body of the article, IMHO. --Calair 00:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then. You know what, maybe it is the best way to go afterall -- nice argument. The one thing though, is I feel human nature makes it hard for people to simply see the convention as used and leave it at that. Why? Because just as they would like to see the German name used instead of the the Italian name (just making an example guys!), some will just then simply want to try and have the convention itself changed. Maybe that is partly what has been going on here, consciously or subconsciously. Regardless, this is an issue individuals have to work out themselves I guess. As for me, if we do go to just Bolzano, Brennero, etc., etc., next time I visit the region I'm going to start taking photos of all the city signs on the roads and post them on the page. In that way at least I'll see both names, Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner somewhere. That will be enough to make me happy, and remember the Roman/Italian-Germanic/Austrian history of the region. :-) Taalo 02:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll agree with that 100%. Let's end this now, change the name to either "Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen", and be done with it. Then we need to work on the rest of the names in the province and correct them as well. Rarelibra 12:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CONSENSUS

[edit]

It looks to be a clear consensus (majority) to change the name to Bolzano. Time to initiate this change and DO THE RIGHT THING. If so, we can get others involved if the rules of Wiki are not adhered to and followed to ally with this consensus. It's already been several days, so let's finish this. Rarelibra 02:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would still prefer going with Bolzano-Bozen or Bolzano (Bozen), but if people are so against using double names -- so be it. I don't know what the hard rules are in Wikipedia, so I will defer to those more knowledgeable. I will still assume that the rule above all is to be correct, fair, and neutral. I would like to make one suggestion though. I would very much like to see that first paragraph of user:Supparluca's comment permantly quoted at the top of every town, province and regional page that are connected with this province. It addresses a lot of people's concerns -- and it is a DAMN GOOD lesson for everyone to learn -- and not just here on Wikipedia. I'm still hoping that we can achieve an enlightened solution to this situation, something that is worthy of this multi-cultural region. Taalo 21:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to add it; Supparluca is exactly right on why we have a naming convention. Septentrionalis 21:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way to make a sort of sticky post/box at the top of a discussion page? I would like to add the quote as is, with the particular Italian-English I can recognize quite well..hah. I can't see how this paragraph can't melt the hearts of even the most rigid in their opinions/ways. :)) Taalo 02:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Make a template, using <div> and </div>; go to {{move}} to see what code makes the box at the top of the page. Name it Template:TemplateName, and transclude using {{TemplateName}}. Septentrionalis 03:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong the magority is for Bolzano-Bozen or Bozen-Bolzano--Martin Se 11:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How did you get that idea? Even if I add the votes for Bolzano-Bozen and Bozen-Bolzano (which is impossible because one contradicts the other), they're less than the votes for Bolzano.
I like the idea of having a summary of this discussion, or at least the reasons why the articles are named as they're named, on all related talk pages. Markussep 13:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How about a summary at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (South Tyrol/Alto Adige)? Septentrionalis 16:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can't help feeling worried what's being thought here; even if I may become boring, I can't help repeating that in the other multi-cultural regions the double name hasn't been adopted; there's no Ypres-Ieper, Bruges-Brugge or Tetovo-Tetova. Maybe the best solution would be to bring the issue to the Mediation Cabal.--Aldux 18:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is that bad afterall. To me, maybe I'm wrong, it looks like we are getting to an agreement just to use the Italian names, and then in the page have the German translation. I'm backing off on my opinion for Bolzano-Bozen, etc. We just make it clear that it is just based on what is done on English references usually, and we include the famous quote of Supparluca. :)) Taalo 19:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

OUTSTANDING ENDING

[edit]

Thank you to all for your input and influence in rectifying this situation. Rarelibra 18:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for this move (a survey) is terribly wrong. In this way, the people who opposed will be dissatisfied, and will probably start a new survey in the future.--Supparluca 11:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terribly wrong? I think surveys and open discussions are the only ways to reach good solutions, if there is no naming convention that clearly solves the issue. And if the old survey was conducted well, the new survey should give more or less the same outcome. Do you mean that you are dissatisfied, and that you will start a new survey in the future? Markussep 12:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, no. I'm satisfied with this move, of course.--Supparluca 13:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am very angry, of course I ask the comunity to move back to the dubble names--Martin Se 17:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, be happy. Taalo 01:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Order of Names

[edit]

I'll try to start the proper discussion process. User PhJ, we use consensus on Wikipedia, and neither of us actually have it at this point. My proposal is simple for the naming order: Italian-Ladin-German. Italian first, because the pages describe objects in Italy; this is basic convention on Wikipedia. I know PhJ wanted German first on some of the Bolzano-Bozen pages, it is very nice of him to have given up on that one. Putting Ladin second was my idea to just give some respect to what is actually the most native language of this region. I thought maybe German could go last (but not least) since well.. I think German has a lot more stuff out there than the small Ladin world. I guess for some, having German last is just proving too much to take. Anyway, that was just my idea and my opinion. Flame on! Taalo 07:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Phi is right: the second language of Bolzano is german (for me the fist) an not ladin.
By the way nones is probably no ladin dialect--Martin Se 09:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--- beginning of copied text (contributions moved from Talk:Merano#Order of Names) ---

Phj is right: the order of importance is: it-de-lad or de-it-lad and never it-lad-de--Martin Se 09:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In Bolzano and Merano the ladin language is almost not spoken--Martin Se 09:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that was the editor's point, read again. (71.106.182.118 )
there is no point for discussion at the moment, first the naming of the articles. the ladin is in Meran not relevant (see statistics)--Martin Se 19:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Easier: We use the same order as it:Merano:
Merano (ted. Meran, lat. Castrum Maiense) è la città... and
Bolzano (in tedesco Bozen , in ladino Bulsan /[bʊlˈzan]/) è...
--Martin Se 20:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My only point of contention is that this insinuates that Meran is a German word, where the word was first used by the local Latin speaking community. Meran is used in German, just as the French Milan is used in English. Taalo 16:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--- end of copied text ---
--- beginning of copied text (contributions moved from Talk:South Tyrol#Order of Names) ---

This is not vandalism but an edit war: the order of languages in South Tyrol are german, italian and ladin (in RL like here, hopefully)--Martin Se 19:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With your first eight words, we agree 100%. Taalo 16:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--- end of copied text ---

I have a very simple proposal, I think the most clear and understandable one: We use the order respecting the frequency the languages are spoken in the respective city or region, respectively. This means:
  • Bolzano: EN - it-de-ladin
  • Merano: EN - de-it-ladin
  • South Tyrol: EN - de-it-ladin
  • Trentino-South Tyrol: EN - it-de-ladin
PhJ 08:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a word to Taalo: Choosing the order it-de-ladin for Meran was an offer for a compromise to avoid edit warring, but you were holding on. In fact my present proposal reflects best the practice on using South Tyrolean article names approved by Wikipedia. This should also be practised for the order of names where English names are used. --PhJ 08:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a word to PhJ. It takes a minimum of two to hold on and have an edit war. As far as a simple proposal, a simpler proposal would be to use one convention across all pages. IT-DE-LA or IT-LA-DE would be fine. It is typical for the country the location exists in be listed first. To be blunt, isn't there something more interesting out there than trying to push DE higher and higher? Taalo 16:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need more opinions now. There have been three clear proposals so far:
  1. order depending on number of speakers: EN - it-de-ladin OR EN - de-it-ladin
  2. EN - it-de-ladin
  3. EN - it-ladin-de
As you see, Taalo, there has been no proposal "de-it-ladin generally". So you are obvious wrong saying "PhJ wants to push DE higher and higher".
PhJ 19:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Well, a lot of this came about when I saw you do this [1] on Merano on 8 March 2007. Looks like de was pushed about as high as it can be, so perhaps I'm not so obviously wrong after all? :) Fine, it is water under the bridge; we can just try to come up with a solution. I'd prefer one global solution for all of BZ though. Taalo 19:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did that because of this: According to the 2001 census, 51.50 % of the Meranese population speaks German as a first language, 48.01% Italian, and 0.49% Ladin. PhJ 19:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, what you did was done unilaterally and simply based on your particular POV. Is it vandalism then? In reality most people in Italy speak their local languages; would you like to go through Wikipedia and please fix this for every page then? Look, on en.wikipedia it is common to list the home country's national language first. By moving "German" to the front it simply appears dubious, maybe also easily misconstrued given your ethnic background. I noticed recently you like to go on pages and delete the Standard Italian naming [2]. There is quite a bit of irony in doing that... Taalo 19:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Meran is not a ladin name even if the ladins use also Meran Meran cut be latin but was created after the roman time
the latin name of Bozen is la:Bauzanum; the ladin name for Bozen is a variation of the historic italian name: Bolzano
The first name of South Tyrol in Middle Ages was Land an der Etsch und im Gebirge (the Name tyrol for the region was created 1248 when the main language was german (as it is today))--Martin Se 19:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So Meran is a Germanic word in your opinion? As far as I know there was Latin proper that came from the Roman times. In this region of the Alps "a conservative branch of the Romance (i.e. Latin) family" popped up. I'd make a wager that this is where these local words come from originally. We also use Meran in Nones/Solardo, the languages you think are dialects, but are in fact variations of Rhaeto-Romance, the Italian language of our area. Anyway, I'd say that both Bolsan/Bulsan and Bozen sound pretty darn similar to Bauzanum. Go figure. :) ps. and maybe we are getting a bit off subject, but then again, you don't like to discuss Italy/Italian stuff on your talk page. :P Taalo 20:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This was a personal attack
One thing is the river (Adiç (fascian) or Adesc (gherdëina)) an other thing is the province (the province is called Südtirol)
Yes Meran is a german name latin was Castrum Maiense
Your facts are for many others your POV--Martin Se 23:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A PERSONAL ATTACK? What did I do now!? o_O I just asked how you all say Adige in Ladin. Regarding Meran, my opinion (yes, a POV), is that Meran is the Rhaeto-Romance word, not German (or Standard Italian for that matter). It sure doesn't sound German to me, but I can accept it if I'm wrong. :} Taalo 01:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not our issue where the names are derived from. Certainly all these names Bolzano, Bozen, Bulsan, and Bolsan are derived from latin Bauzanum, but what counts is the present names, and these are Bolzano (an old Italian exonym), Bozen, and Bulsan. --PhJ 08:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You may have missed that the word being mentioned above is actually Meran. Taalo 08:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is quite obvious and simple to list the names as English (this IS English Wiki), then Italian (the home nation), then German (the dual language), then ladin (the historic language). Plain and simple. Rarelibra 02:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good enough, but just a note that Ladin is a dual-language to many too. It isn't quite in the grave. :} Taalo 03:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Say, Taalo. Would you say that London is not an English word then? :P Tridentinus 13:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to play - actually, it isn't an English word. It's root is Germanic. :p Rarelibra 13:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Other italian languages (veneto...) aren't spoken at all in South Tyrol. Italian South Tyrol is well known for the use of standard Italian in families and every where--Martin Se 15:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just see a lot of it as being very fuzzy. In the Val di Non I know some people who speak in Standard Italian and then some in Nones, and it flips back and forth. That is why I have said before that things are not so cut and dry: the "Italians" and the "Germans". In reality there are basically people from this spot on Earth. The languages do not really identify ethnicity. Almost, my opinion is that languages like Ladin and Nones are Italian languages (and due to their location with particular influences of other languages). Martin, you will likely disagree. That is fine, it is just my opinion. I just know that Nones feels much more related to Standard Italian than German. Taalo 18:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bozen and variant are of latin origin maybe Meran too, but Meran is not a ladin word, because the language wasn't spoken there in this Time--Martin Se
Yes, Ladin came after Latin, of course. My only point is that languages such as Ladin in this region very predate both German (very likely) and Standard Italian (definitely). Regardless, I consider Ladin, Nones, Sicilian, etc. all languages of Italy, just as Cantonese, Mandarin, Hakka are all languages of China. It is my POV. end of story. :} Taalo 17:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rarelibra: you win :D. But seriously my point is, be the roots what they may, languages work and expand like that, from preesisting things; see here, if the origin of a word determines its "legitimate ownership", the English language sure outsourced a lot! On the usage of Italian dialects in South Tyrol, Martin is 90+% right: you can hear Tridentine in the Überetsch-Unterland, where the "historical" Italian minority resides. Elsewhere Mussolini sent colonists from the most varied areas of Italy, thus making standard Italian, well, the standard. Tridentinus 19:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My only point also is that it isn't so black-and-white when someone might say that Meran is not an Italian word. Just because it isn't the Standard Italian word, which has the vowel at the end, doesn't mean it is not an Italian word. That said, I'm not trying to claim a word under the flag of Italy, or any such thing. It is fine if someone wants to say/argue it is a German word, but then also try and consider that it is also an Italian word. We use it in Nones, which is a language of Italy. We are from Trentino, but we are also part of the overall people of Italy. I personally dislike the separatist/isolationist attitude that "we are X, and not Italian". It is boring to me, because everyone on the whole darn peninsula could say this if they so feel inclined. But whatever, everyone can thing as they want. Taalo 19:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
and my point is that England was founded by hordes of invading Germanic tribes that migrated across Europe - look at the proto-Celtic population, for example, with their origin being as far as the shores of the Black Sea. England - or "Ang-land" (as in Anglo-Saxons) had it's language root in the Germanic (or Proto-Germanic) family - West Germanic branch, to be more precise (and I don't mean the original or native population of the islands). So by sheer logic, we speak a descended form of Germanic - thus, "England" is a Germanic word. Hah. 8p Rarelibra 20:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I believe some genetic research recently suggested that most English are of Germanic stock actually, so it is more than just the language which is a descendent. It seems the local English, from way back when, were somehow made extinct (well, probably melted in, who knows). Anyway, I obviously didn't get it into in much detail, and my POV is that a lot of this genetic research is still pretty coarse. You just have to read about recent theories on Thomas Jefferson to figure that out. Anyway, I believe regardless -- we all still end up being shown to be human. Man, we are going off the subject. Thanks Tridentinus. :P Taalo 23:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, my intent was simply to attempt a demostratio quia absurdum - I meant no harm. Rarelibra, I merely thought there was no other root for London other than the Roman "Londinium", I guess you just owned me. On English genetics, last week I read on the newspaper about a research claiming that Englishman and Irishman had virtually no genetic differences; could it be that Germanic tribes overtook the green island but conceded their language? Conversely, an anthropologist I once met told me that the object of his obsession was that the human type visible in Etruscan paintings was/is almost nowhere to be seen today in central Italy, rare as albino gorillas. What's the latest development on Jefferson? I have a weak spot for him, just because his buildings are the most exquisite examples of Neoclassicism I can think of. Tridentinus 05:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

[edit]

This page is protected until editors attain consensus in what order to list the names of this city (a rather silly issue to editwar about, in my humble opinion). List it on WP:RPP if you think you have found a solution. I'll review everyone here for WP:3RR now. For any other conduct issues please use the WP:DR procedure. Sandstein 08:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, that is about enough

[edit]

PhJ, you are completely out of line, and you have been warned previously. There is no personal attack in saying, hey ladin dude, in fact it cordial/friendly. If you don't have a firm grasp on the English language, I suggest you err on the side of caution. You have been going around throwing out accusations of vandalism left and right, and now you are doing it with personal attacks. Feel free to re-add your own comments, I'm not taking the time to pick through the edits you are done, I've done a simple revert. Taalo 16:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User Taalo, it is now your turn to delete this paragraph. It is unfriendly itself and does not contribute to the discussion of this article. Your assumptions are completely unfounded. So please delete it now. -- PhJ 17:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PhJ, My comments were not unfriendly, but to the point. You can't accuse someone of vandalism for reverting edits you happen to think are correct. You can't go through and delete others edits unless they are clearly derogatory (even if I or anyone else puts our foot in our mouth from time to time). Mr. Martin, no matter how nutty he appears to me at times (I'm completely joking around here!!), is still someone I consider a relative. So, I will try until the end to see if we can reach some common ground (hence me saying hey ladin dude, can you help me with this word?). I'm sorry if it was misunderstood, so here I try again to clarify it. I myself am really easy to forgive and forget, especially if I see people being truly sincere. Lets just try to get a compromise wrapped up and go from there. Taalo 17:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PhJ - unless deemed inappropriate by an admin, he does not have to delete it (and don't try to order him to do so). You, yourself, were in violation of wiki rules when you deleted his comments from a public talk page. Be very careful pointing the finger at the deletion key or trying to force others to do so. Rarelibra 17:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Taalo's "message" just does not belong on this page. If he really had an important message for me, he should leave it on my talk page, not here, as this is the page to discuss the Bolzano article, not the problems some users have. This discussion is disruptive for users who want to deal with the contents of the page. So, of course, it should be removed. -- PhJ 20:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Only in your opinion should it be removed. I am telling Taalo, now I will tell you. Remain respectful and professional throughout this, and we'll all reach a viable solution. If you persist, your name may be the next one up on the admin noticeboard, period. Let's all work together, ok? Rarelibra 20:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Only that I don't see the point of the discussion. Is it only the order of names in the box and the first sentence?--Martin Se 17:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the box and first sentence. Anyway, I'm fine with IT-DE-LA. I was just interested to give a little nod to these more rare languages (also languages I feel predate IT and DE in the region). But, well, it isn't worth if it we have to edit war about it. :} Taalo 21:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gryffindor, that is really wrong

[edit]

These two sections copied from Talk:Bolzano-Bozen, where they were written during the move of this page. Should these be archived?

While I am one who actually prefers the double naming of BZ/AA/ST cities like Bolzano-Bozen, Gryffindor, you can't just go about unilaterally moving pages again. There was even a move vote that you simply disregarded. Please move the page back and we try and get to it either with Lar, or after we figure out the PofBZ/AA/ST and PofTN pages. Taalo 21:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, I think that there wasn't really consensus in the above move debate. I recommend against unilaterally moving pages though. Perhaps another move request to see if we have consensus for Bolzano-Bozen, or has this been done before? —METS501 (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Though the vote above was actually 9 support and 2 oppose. :-) I'm fine to look at a request to move the page from Bolzano to Bolzano-Bozen. I think the page needs to be moved back to where it was first though. These unilateral movies are what got us to a lot of these issues in the first replace. Taalo 22:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe we're going back to those silly double names again. We had a survey about it (September '06), in which there was a clear majority against double names. And there was a separate survey about the name for Bolzano, see #Requested move; September 2006, in which Bolzano was chosen, again with a clear majority. I think it's very rude to disregard those results! Markussep 16:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The surveys are never meent for ever because Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol was moved after the 3rd poll--Martin Se 12:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In other words: the principle that the majority of speakers determines the name of the article has been thrown in the sink, on a whim? Great. One step ahead, two back. Tridentinus 13:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We can revisit each and every article within the region and province, if necessary. Rarelibra 13:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Tridentinus. I've said this before: the name of the article shouldn't reflect all possible variations. And it's not just me who says that, see Talk:Communes of South Tyrol#Survey, Wikipedia:Naming conflict and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). And for a similar case (French/Dutch): Talk:Brussels-Capital Region/NamingArchive3. Rarelibra, you may think this is a reasonable or even desirable solution, but it's not. Next will be the discussion which name comes first, and why the Ladin names are left out, and we're in a worse situation than we started from. Been there, didn't enjoy it. Markussep 14:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Markussep - this is not quite a clear-cut case. When you go to the website of the city, it offers a version in Italian (Bolzano) and German (Bozen). When you go to the official tourism website and click on the "Welcome" for English, it gives you "Bolzano-Bozen"... even their email address is to "bolzano-bozen.it". I am all in favor of the dual-naming because of the sensitivity of the region and the proof of existence with the official governments. But to alleviate the need by many, I have already sent out emails to the governmental entities (region, province, and city) to ask about the proper reference to the cities within the province/region. Stay tuned. Rarelibra 15:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[3] (the official tourism site) uses a double name because it's intended for German, Italian and English speakers. I checked several of the English pages, and saw that they use Bolzano in the text (and the page header and menus), not Bolzano-Bozen. The only instances where I see the double name is in the logo and the address. As expected, the German pages use only Bozen (except the logo), and the Italian pages only Bolzano (again except the logo). Markussep 17:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is also an established use of dual-names as well. Rarelibra 17:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I sincerely doubt you will find established use of dual names in texts that are primarily meant for English speakers, and written by English speakers. I'm sure you can demonstrate (limited) dual-names usage for Bolzano-Bozen, Vienna-Wien, Rome-Roma, Leeuwarden-Ljouwert or Fiume-Rijeka, but that doesn't mean that it's the most commonly used name in English. Markussep 18:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let me get this straight: the Gryffindor position is that every municipality in Alto Adige/South Tyrol (hey, if the regional name is a guideline for communes also, it must be for the province as well) should now have a double name? Adding those alternate names will be long: lots of communes, in AA/ST.
I just can't see what was wrong with the old convention, which, in the lack of clear-cut English names, chose the language of the majority of speakers for every commune - although, as I said several times, how Meran became Merano just escapes my comprehension. Tridentinus 18:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're kidding me, right? Merano is the name given by the Italian government. So you are arguing against the Italian usage? Anyway, it is not the "Gryffindor" position, it is a position held by several others (including myself). Stop singling out one editor. Start understanding the complexity of the region/province. Rarelibra 20:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Meran is also a name given by the government. The article title is Merano because of a survey (the main argument was that the Italian name is significantly more used in English than the German name). Italian usage is not very relevant, en.wikipedia describes English usage. This region is not more complex than for instance Quebec, Belgium, Switzerland, or western Finland, to name but a few bi-, tri- and quadrilingual countries and regions. Markussep 20:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But the examples you give - Quebec wasn't given up by the French after WWII, nor was Belgium, nor Switzerland, etc. Interesting you mention Finland - as Åland is an autonomous part of it where the official, spoken language is actually Swedish. Rarelibra 20:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neither was South Tyrol, that was WWI. My point is that in other regions with potential or actual linguistic struggles (Belgium!) no need was felt for Bolzano-Bozen type solutions. You won't find article titles like Åland-Ahvenanmaa, Lappeenranta-Villmanstrand or Jakobstad-Pietarsaari. Markussep 21:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm against the Italian usage for the English Wiki. First because there's a German majority there, second because since 1924 there's been a steady flow of English books and articles (there's a NYT example) calling Merano Meran, albeit not for a mass audience perhaps. And yes, Deo piacente I'm not that blinded by patrioticism to always take the side of Italian, whatever the case.
I'm sorry if I seemed to single out Gryffindor; it was just that it was him who made the moves in the first place. I think I just... followed the legal practice of calling a motion after its presenter :). As for the complexity, I thought I did: the above mentioned case of Merano should, if I dare say so myself, shows how unhappy I am with taking advantage of the belonging of South Tyrol to Italy to merely write off the German presence. There was a vote, and I didn't move the page just because I find it flat-out groundless. Back to the point: the example of Quebec, Belgium and Switzerland all point to the fact that, in Wikipedia, articles on cities in multilingual areas are named following the language most spoken there (barring cities with an established English name). So, if we accept this, why adopt a special policy here? Tridentinus 22:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merano was placed where it is on the grounds that English usage is established as more often Merano; I could live with Meran if that were disproven. (And Bolzano is the established English name.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is settled, then. Tridentinus 22:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please move back

[edit]

Unilaterally moved by Gryffindor after protection. The #Requested move; September 2006 above is clear preference for the name most attested in English, and the section immediately above persuades me that this consensus has not changed.

Is there support for an RfC on Gryffindor's administrative misconduct? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, do you mean Comment or Checkuser? Tridentinus 22:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Request for comment, of course. RFCU is request for checkuser. Picaroon 00:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, typing RfC in the search box I came to a page where both options were considered, so I wanted to be sure. Anyway: I'll have to support it: it's been ten days since the move, and that he can't be bothered offering his take on the move, eh, fails to look good. Tridentinus 17:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC) Retiring support, as Gryffindor has returned. :) Tridentinus 18:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
definitely support this. actually, besides an RfC on his admin misconduct, there should be a darned admin recall. there is sustained abuse. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.45.72.26 (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Well here I am and I can explain. Since we established finally by consensus to name the region with a double-name "Trentino Alto-Adige/Südtirol", I thought it only fair to name the capital city with a double-name as well as opposed to only one, the Italian version. I would support also to revert all the village and city names of South Tyrol back to their double-language names, which is how it was originally. These place names were moved although there was substantial opposition to such a move. There are various options: 1) either use double-names or 2) use the language of the majority-spoken population. I would support the double-names as a fair compromise (since issues pertaining to this region need to be apparently compromised upon), or use the names of the majority. In that case I could understand a simple "Bolzano", but then why is it "Merano" if the majority is German-speaking? So even if my moves seemed unilateral, I am seeking a neutral compromise, which is in line with Wikipedia policy. Gryffindor 20:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to back up Gryffindor on this one. If the agreed upon policy was to use the name that was most common with the majority lingual speaking population, then it should fit that, with evidence, the proper names be assigned. Rarelibra 00:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As you might remember from the "Communes of South Tyrol" survey, there was a more substantial opposition to double names. Let's not go back there. The rules we agreed on are: take the most commonly used name in English (which is a naming convention, BTW), and if that's not clear (e.g. very limited occurrence in English), use the local majority language. Meran(o) is an arguable case, with nearly equal German- and Italian-speaking population. Markussep 07:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The applicable policy, WP:NC, says to use the most common name in English if there is one; the problem with most of the region's communes is that there isn't one (so we came up with the majority-language, as a stopgap). I acknowledge that Rarelibra opposes this policy; but this is not the page to do it on. Bolzano, however, is both common English usage, and the language of the linguistic majority. There is evidence that Merano is preferred in English, and the linguistic majority is feather thin; I forget whether 51 or 53%. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I definitely support the "Bolzano" solution, also because we are speaking about a town which is 70% Italian-speaking, 23% German-speaking, 1% Ladin-speaking and 6% other language-speaking. Thus I support the move back. --Checco 09:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed - and, conversely, Merano should be moved to Meran - the German majority may be slim, but that's how it works. Merano may be more common in English, but wouldn't you agree for stability's sake that it mat be better to let it go? Tridentinus 11:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Tridentinus, and think it is a very viable solution. Rarelibra 12:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Rarelibra for your support and understanding. Again, I mean no harm and in no way do I want to be seen as "abusing" anything. My understanding is that since we agreed to use a double-name for the region (in this case Italian and German) as the most neutral solution, what is the problem in reverting to double-names for the cities and villages of that region? The articles were originally in that format. I think that is only a fair compromise and is fully in line with Wikipedia policy on being as "neutral" as possible. I know that many users took great offence when the cities were moved to single names (in either language), and the official name of the capital city of South Tyrol is a double-name anyway. So moving it to that format only reflects a fact, not an act of vandalism as some apparently want to construe. Gryffindor 17:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I actually don't like double names for naming articles on cities, so it would be my second choice at best. I would prefer using the name in the language of the respective majority, which means (for some places in Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol): Bolzano (it), Meran (de), Brixen (de), Laives (it), Urtijëi (ladin), Trento (it), Lusern (a small isolated village in Trentino with a German-speaking majority), and redirects from the names in other languages. All names in bold in the introduction. --PhJ 18:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow - I actually agree with PhJ as well. :) Seems like a consensus is building... what do you think, Gryffindor? Taalo, I mean, Icsunovoe? :) Rarelibra 18:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree in principle, but I still believe common English usage should overrule. For example, Merano is probably the more used word in English. Ortisei is the name that is more commonly used as well. Even the local people will use this name for tourists, marketing, etc. It is the same word afterall! Regardless, I would like to see the pages linked like Bolzano (Bozen), Brixen (Bressanone), etc. Otherwise you are implicitly devaluing one of the names. Icsunonove 20:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bottom line is that it is not up to one or two, or a few people to come up with a decision on how to close this issue. It takes real consensus and compromise, not going and trying to force things like what I've seen recently on Bolzano-Bozen and Province of Trento. A straw poll was nuked and a move request put in place. That is very shady behavior again. I believe a neutral party needs to mediate this. Icsunonove 17:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Icsunonove - please keep things professional. No need for "... that is very shady behavior again". Rarelibra 17:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, lets be very clear here. Keeping things "professional" is accomplished first and foremost by not having these particular actions in the first place. Someone does not go and move pages unilaterally. Someone does not go and blank ongoing straw polls/discussions. This behavior is obviously not only annoying to me -- given the discussions I read above. I do not agree with this approach of going after the people who come forward and call out this behavior. I'm sorry if my adjective looks harsh (and I'll tell you that I'm being very polite already), but after all a word really pales in comparison to actions. The behavior is shady, and I have that right to express my opinion. As far as I can remember, I have not moved any pages like this.. Icsunonove 18:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I guess my approach is this - if I don't like something someone is doing, I bring it up with an admin. If I don't like something an admin is doing, I bring up an RfC (if there is sufficient evidence). But I have learned and try to keep things rather normal and calm, instead of talking about someone's behavior, etc. That is all. Yes, we have different approaches. But then - why did you nuke your other account? :) Rarelibra 18:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because I really had enough of the fighting and politics and decided to get out of here. I guess I couldn't resist Wikipedia in general. This is not a subject for the talk page though. I would wholeheartedly enjoy having things discussed in a calm, rational way. You especially should know that I've wanted solutions which are for compromise and sharing from the beginning. I admit I was rather shocked when I saw the discussions on the TN page blanked today; and saying shady was being pretty darned polite already. :-) Ok, I can go to an Admin next time or do an RfC, though you know what? It would sure be a lot easier if that sort of stuff just quit happening! :)))) It is like someone hitting another person upside the head, and then complaining when they blurt out "f***!". Anyway, my best contribution of late: Forst :) Icsunonove 18:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the proposal of PhJ as well. Technically Luserna is not in a bilingual area, but it's perfectly entitled to constitute an exception given its importance for German linguistics. Tridentinus 18:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with it too. Actually from some of PhJ edits I found more about these areas where they speak a Germanic-origin language in Trentino. Very interesting. Anyway, my only desire is to have all the basic names listed on the front page and hopefully the understanding that things are not so black-and-white as people might want to imagine. Icsunonove 18:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So then it's Bolzano-Bozen to Bolzano and Merano to Meran? Fine with me. Markussep 19:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could accept that too; the evidence for English usage was not overwhelming. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I don't care either way, just as long as the various names are shown in the beginning. I do prefer to see references such as Meran (Merano) as well, since we should give a bit of respect to the national language as well. It is all the same name really! :-] Icsunonove 23:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all Icsunonove aka Taalo I didn't "nuke" any discussions but simply archived them because of your habit to constantly sprout up "straw polls" all over the place that in the end no one knows anymore what and where to vote for. In order to bring some oversight I decided to archive that poll. Your move to erase a running official poll is a bad idea, I restored it + the previous straw poll since you insist. I hope that satisfies your demands.

Now about the names of the cities, I still would prefer double-names (yes, that means adding the Italian names to cities and villages which have a German-speaking majority). Since I thought we finally were able to agree to use the official name for the region of "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol", I think we should restore the articles to their original double names. However if there is little accomodation for that, I will have to agree in that case to use names of the majority-speak. It should be "Bolzano" then and "Meran", in order to be consistent. Again, I still would prefer double-names in order to be fair to every side. Gryffindor 21:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You were virtually alone in that. It is not fair to the anglophone reader, who is consistently misinformed. However, you are free to make another WP:RM request, now the page has been unprotected. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here we go again, Gryffindor... with Pmanderson (the real name) making the big word "anglophone" statements (unnecessary!). If you would just read his statement, Pmanderson, you would realize that he said he thinks the articles should be restored, BUT, he agrees in the case of using the names of majority-speaking community (which is what we decided on to use - thus, Merano should be moved to Meran, etc). So it seems a happy outcome for all here... now, after all the names are settled, let's all take a break, protect the pages, and enjoy a Forst, for God's sake. OH, and BTW, the only ones misinforming the reader are the ones like yourself who insist upon undue names like "Tenedos" for what is really "Bozcaada". :) Rarelibra 12:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LOL. First of all Gryffindor aka Antares911, etc., etc., do not try to cover up your behavior by pointing the finger at me with this absurd "constantly sprout up "straw polls" all over the place". I am not the only one that put up straw polls, and I'd much rather take the criticism of putting up too many polls before doing what you do. But, hmm, I suppose that is why you are attempting to turn the target from you to me? ^_- Fine, do whatever you want. We are trying to have a thorough discussion, which may take more time in the end, but leads to solutions where the majority of people can truly feel satisfied, just like at Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. I completely agree with Septentrionalis as well, the English reader is constantly being misinformed in these naming conventions. I should have some inkling about that too, considering I am a native English speaker with roots in the region. Anyway, if I understand the previous discussions it was: 1) English usage first 2) majority-language second. The latter bit being debatable in itself, but at least reasonable. So that says, Merano, as Markussep pointed out yet again. Icsunonove 23:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could support the solution "English name (if there is considerable usage of the name) first, majority-language second", but that does definitely NOT say "Merano" but the following, as the only place in Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol with an English name is Trent: Bolzano (it), Meran (de), Brixen (de), Laives (it), Urtijëi (ladin), Trent (en). On the other hand, we have come to a compromise on the region abandoning the English name Trentino-South Tyrol so it would be a bit inconsistent. Therefore my first choice is, as I wrote above, "Majority language as article name", my second choice, "Double names", and my third choice, "English name first, majority-language second". I am for the inclusion of Trentino into the naming convention (which is relevant for a handfull of place names): e.g. Vich de Fascia (ladin) for Vigo di Fassa, Gereut (de) or Garait for Frassilongo --PhJ 08:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And where are you going to find official statistics on commune per commune linguistic usage in Trentino? I can agree to have Lusèrn, or Gareit although that one specifically is highly dubious, but let's not forget that readers of Wikipedia would vainly look for them on a road sign should they visit. We can have exceptions, but too many of them simply cross the line between reporting, that's what encyclopaedias do, and taking a stance, which would be to make official something that is yet not. Tridentinus 12:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When in doubt we should simply use the official Italian name. As far as I know (and have seen), the bilingual comuni of Trentino have bilingual road signs (and place names, respectively). But if not, no problem, let's use the Italian names. --PhJ 19:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The names in question are:

(the names of Soraga and Moena are the same in Ladin and Italian)

total of 9 municipalities.

Why don't you trust [5], Tridentinus? --PhJ 20:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, I posted that link myself, so yeah, it'd be okay for me to let Fierozzo and Palù move to

Vlarotz and Palae; I was concerning with the Fassan communes: where is one to find a reliable statistic on what they would call their mother language? I mean,70% is a solid percentage, but at least some authoritative word on what's effectively used village by village would surely be a far more solid base to build upon. Tridentinus 20:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of research landed me here; it's in Italian, but here's a salient part: "Of the 257 Cimbrians in their Tridentine abodes, that is Luserna, 87,2% declares to know the language, and 84,8% to use it. In the communes of the mòchena part of Fersina valley those who declare to know and use Mòcheno oscillate between 82,7 and 78,8%, depending on the village. Finally Ladins, the largest group: 81,3% affirmed in the Censiment to know Ladin, and 79,5% to use it. ... regardin children between age 0-10, in Fassa valley Ladin is known by 88,2% and spoken by 77,9% of the resident children". In light of this, I'd say Ladin has a very strong presence, and wouldn't nitpick as long as more precise data does not come along... Tridentinus 21:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Tridentinus, now let's see what the other say ... PhJ 07:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, we agree on the majority-speak use then. Is that settled? Gryffindor 14:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds to me like it is a consensus. :) Rarelibra 15:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
More than that: it's a good solution! Markussep 15:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to clarify. The consensus that was found at that time was 1) Common English usage 2) majority-speak. In either way, I would have all references to the page use a Bolzano (Bozen), for example. Icsunonove 18:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to clarify once again: The consensus we have been talking about is Bolzano (it), Meran (de), Brixen (de), Laives (it), Urtijëi (ladin), Trento (it), Lusern (cimbr). At present, that means moving Merano to Meran. I already had my mouse at the move button, but, as I see now, it would be fine to get some clear confirmation by other users. Thanks. PhJ 05:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, you are missing the point. I'm saying the consensus that was found previously was for 1) common English, then 2) local language. I would argue that especially for major cities (major cities, tourist destinations, etc.) like Merano, Ortisei, etc. -- that these names are Common English usage. You really confuse the reader by using Urtijëi, for example. I can back using names that the language majority use, but common English usage should overrule. Icsunonove 17:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The point that was discussed about the cities within this diverse area was to use the majority linguistic name (in this case, Meran instead of Merano). That is what the consensus seems to be. Rarelibra 17:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Vell, maybe we can have Markussep and Septentrionalis comment on this when they have a chance; as I believe they were both part of the original discussions about comunes of ST. I was under the impression that the consensus was for 1) Common English usage then 2) local language-majority name. Number two makes sense to me for a lot of these little villages and towns. However, for major cities like Merano and Bressanone, or famous tourist towns like Ortisei, does it really make sense to go with these "majority-language" names? I would argue that even the local people in Ortisei will use this spelling when they describe their town (especially in brochures, tourist guides, etc.). I respect the idea of using the local languages, but I think we have to remember to weight this together with a respect for the national language of the country, the guidelines on using what is common English usage, along with a little dose of reality. :-) Icsunonove 21:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, the "majority-speak use" is a very bad solution, because -for example- someone could say: "Seville has a Spanish speaking majority but it isn't named Sevilla in the English wikipedia!! Moreover, I don't see in the naming conventions that you should use the name in the language of the majority of the population! So, why these inconsistencies?". And of course I would agree with this person.--Supparluca 20:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? I'm moving New York to Nueva York next week. ^_- Maybe next April we can try to move Detroit to ديترويت. hah All tongue-in-cheek of course. :)) Icsunonove 22:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mhh, I don't understand, it seems to me that we have the same opinion, do you mean (like me) that it doesn't make any sense to choose the name used by the majority of the population?--Supparluca 08:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I have the same opinion as you. People talk about "majority language" but simply disregard the National language of the nation these cities are in. That and totally throw out English usage, which is completely unfair to the English-speaking audience of these articles. I've had the opinion for awhile that there is a subset of users who use English wikipedia to try and promote various political agendas; that opinion hasn't changed one bit from what I've seen on here. In these cases I only see simply-minded people who appear to want to fight off the so-called Italians, the Italians who no one has yet been able to tell exactly where they are located. My roots are Nones-speaking and from Trentino.. but overall we have always been people of Italy. It is possible to have your local roots and even independence, but still be part of a larger family. Icsunonove 17:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Demonstrate English usage (as there exists for Bolzano), and moving will not be a problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even though that would be nice if it were true, even when a list of major English references is presented, it is all usually thrown to the wind when confronted with a dozen users sharing some boring political agenda. It really shouldn't be about these votes, it should be based on as good a set of data as currently available. Icsunonove 01:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bozen bleibt deutsch!

[edit]

This city is offical called Bozen - Bolzano, it's a german city, so please use the german name of it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.132.139.203 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 27 July 2007

Have you considered seeing a psychologist, or you can hang out with him. Go watch Life is Beautiful or something..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.96.4 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 27 July 2007
The German name is in the first line of the article as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names).--Supparluca 11:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think he wants only the German name, since it is a "German city".. *laugh* :-) primitive.. Icsunonove 20:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bolzano/Archive_1&oldid=1091620887"