Talk:Black Horror on the Rhine

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On 5 February 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Black horror on the Rhine. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Merger proposal

I propose that Black shame be merged into Black Horror on the Rhine. Basically these are the same topic, but as this page has progressed much further, I suggest it all comes here.

I would like to make some additional comments:

I found Wiggers book unreliable, as she gets certain points if fact wrong, eg saying Morel was in the International Labour Party! I feel this a shame as she obviously did a lot of research, but I would suggest we avoid quoting her opinions too much. I have corrected her quote from Nitti, which should refer to Berbers, for example.
The article needs to be broken down into smaller sections/subsections, maybe on the campaign in North America, the British Isles and Germany could be subsections as i believe they are quite different.
The article needs more contextualisation specifically including the Kapp Putschand the Ruhr Uprising.
Was E. D. Morel "a leading British left-wing radical"? He was always essentially a white supremacist and was in the liberal Party up until 1917. Claude McKay viewed the campaign as a smokescreen behind which to mask the brutal suppression of the Ruhr Uprising which ended up with over 1,500 dead on both sides. I think it would be better to describe him as "a leading British political activist". Wiggers' discussion of Morel is an area where I question her reliability: Did his views arise from a deep seated inner racism, or was appealing to such views part of how he operated as an activist? I would incline to the later on the basis that he built his campaign as regards the Congo Free State around Leopold II of Belgium's encroachments on Free Trade. Perhaps this is a moot point. Although Morel was a member of the Independent Labour Party (ILP), formally linked to the International Working Union of Socialist Parties, membership did not imply being left-wing, e.g. although Ramsay MacDonald was a member of ILP, he did not subscribe to their politics and certainly was not sympathetic to those of the the Independent Social Democratic Party of Germany (USPD) (see his role at the Conference of the Three Internationals where he represented the Berne International). bearing in mind that this was a period of internecine warfare amongst various elements within the socialist movement, I would suggest that we work towards using clear political terms when describing individuals political positions.
The motivations of the French included their concern that the First World War was about to recommence. The seizure of Frankfurt was more about seizing a railway centre in any future outbreak of open warfare rather than just seizing a German economic centre. Leutha (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The context should also include some of the material written by W. E. B. Dubois about Black soldiers in Darkwater (1920) particularly in the chapter "On Beauty and Death" which discusses African-American soldiers in relation to France. Leutha (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the merger proposal. "Black shame" is obviously about the same subject, both expressions were used by German groups (mostly rightist) for the same propaganda goal of mobilizing racist thinking against the French. I'm a history teacher at a German "Gymnasium" (secondary school). Rsk6400 (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No colour line in France

"In France, there was officially at least no color line and anyone who was willing to embrace French language and culture could become French regardless of their skin color." Not quite so. In fact military service was a means by which Senegalese men could "become" French, i.e. gain citizenship. In fact the notion of what constituted France was quite elastic, see Overseas France. Of particular relevance here are the Four Communes and Blaise Diagne role in getting full citizenship rights granted to all residents of the Four Communes in 1916 - which also made these citizens liable to conscription. I think this is an important point but needs to be put in a more precise way, and is linked to the concept of citizenship of the French Revolution, particularly the Levée en masse.Leutha (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and rename

Obviously the same topic as black shame. Also, I would propose a less sensationalist title like "Non-European troops in the Occupation of the Rhineland" or something like that.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 01:16, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would have disagree with you here. A title like Non-European troops in the Occupation of the Rhineland would imply the article should be about the experience of non-white troops serving in the French Army during the occupation of the Rhineland between 1918-1930. Such an article would be OK, but what this article is about is the mostly false allegations of sexual violence committed by Senegalese, Vietnamese, Moroccan, etc troops that attracted such wide attention at the time. In Germany, these allegations were known as Die schwarze Schmach ("The Black Shame"), but in the English-speaking work, the term that was commonly used was the Black Horror on the Rhine, being coined in a pamphlet written by E.D. Morel in the summer of 1920. I'll agree that it is sensationalist, but it was Morel's intention to inflame racial hatred and fear, which is why he coined that term. Using the contemporary term gives one a feel for the nature of this campaign, which appealed in the base and crude way to racial fears. Moreover, the term Black Horror on the Rhine is still how this campaign is still remembered in the English-speaking world. That is the term the majority of historians used to describe this virulently racist media campaign that attracted such attention at the time, so I feel we should stick to that term.--A.S. Brown (talk) 23:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC) [reply]

allegation basis?

As an uninformed reader of this article, I'd like to know in the lede what validity the sexual war crimes allegations have, if any, or if it is unclear from the historical record. Kellen^T 19:05, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not much-I'll correct that. While here, this allegation that Lothrop Stoddard was not a white supremacist is absurd. Stoddard's best known book was his bestseller from 1920, The Rising Tide of Color: The Threat Against White World-Supremacy. Note the title, the threat against The Threat White World-Supremacy. It is true that Stoddard was obsessed with the so-called "Yellow Peril", but the mere fact that he believed that Asians had intelligence equal to whites does not disapprove that he was a white supremacist. Stoddard wanted to maintain as he put "white world supremacy", namely keeping the white peoples on top and everybody else down, which makes him a white supremacist. --A.S. Brown (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) asilvering (talk) 05:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Black Horror on the Rhine → Black horror on the Rhine – No reason why 'horror' is capitalised here. GnocchiFan (talk) 23:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann ^(Talk) 16:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Sennecaster (Chat) 03:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject African diaspora has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Germany has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject France has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming you mean that it's not a proper title, which I get, and agree with, but the sources seem to use the capitalized version. I can't seem to find a relevant Wikipedia policy, but in general English it is acceptable to capitalize specific "named" events in history. Based on the titles, I am leaning more towards weak oppose but I haven't been able to check the sources' body text. ASUKITE 17:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 13:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Conventional to capitalize named events and article sources use same naming convention. MOSforever (talk) 13:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, capitalization seems to be more common in literature (Ngram). Killarnee (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"beady lips" ?

I think maybe the long section on Kreutzer's "Die Schwarze Schmach" could be shortened, though leaving the lurid quotations from the novel?

But, overall, this is a fascinating article highlighting the bipartisan nature of gut racism. And the pernicious stupidity of social and anthropological commentary divorced from primary empirical research. Pascalulu88 (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]