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Archive 1

Sports

Is this paragraph from sports correct? "Nearby Homewood is host to the Regions Charity Classic presented by Bruno’s Supermarkets, a stop on the Champions Tour senior golf tour, to be played starting in 2006 at the new Ross Bridge Golf Resort. This event was formerly known as the Bruno's Memorial Classic, played in nearby Hoover at the Greystone Country Club." I think Ross Bridge is in Hoover, not Homewood.

You are correct. I changed it. EatYourGreens 00:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Population

I got the info from the census.gov website, page 3 of http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t29/tab01a.pdf

The actual metro area population is over 1 million. I will get an exact number from the Census folks before I edit it, but I know there was an article about it in the paper going over 1 million.

WikiProject U.S. Cities

Wondering how to edit this U.S. City Entry?
The WikiProject U.S. Cities standards might help.

If it was me that deleted that huge amount of demographic and media info, I sincerely apologize. I think it is easy to retrieve. I'd put it back, but I'm not sure it was me that did it, and I'm also not sure that much detail belongs here anyway (not that I mind, the more the better as far as I'm concerned.)

Contemporary Issues / POV

The "Contemporary Issues" section is not very neutral. I think the Wikipedia would prefer to stick with matters of fact rather than opinion. I'd be willing to collaborate on a more objective rewrite if you're interested.

  • agree: The "Contemporary Issues" section has never had a neutral point of view. Nor are the types of issues presented here unique to Birmingham. The section should probably be removed. Such issues as are both contemporary and unique to Birmingham would, by nature, grow out of its geography or history and could be developled there. Dystopos 14:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The "Contemporary Issues" is a section that offers a little incite from a neutral into what the culture of Birmingham in respect to the state of Alabama when it comes to public transportation. It also informs the reader how this impending problem came about and in the region and why hasn't been resolved. The conclusion of it does offer a sense of resolution.

  • These three statements are problematic:
    • Birmingham's public services are direly underfunded.
    • Birmingham's mass transit system, such as it is, exemplifies the reluctance of the citizens of Alabama to support the redistribution of wealth from the more rural areas to the state's large cities.
    • little visible progress is being made toward adequate transit services.

The first should be discussed in terms of quantitative data. Apparently the people in charge of funding are satisfied with the level of public services even if you and I are not. The second statement, that the transit system "exemplifies" something, is a not a matter of factual information. The pattern of wealth distribution is something that should also be discussed as hard data, not labelled "reluctance". As for the third, I could argue that recent progress has been quite visible, though not monumental. The BJCTA has constructed a multi-modal hub and the system of bus routes has been greatly expanded and new buses put into service. Compiling significant statistics to document the evolution of public transportation would serve the article better than using unsupported evidence to make claims about the cities "culture". Consider editing the Transportation and Government sections to include this information. Dystopos 17:45, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Birmingham disambiguation

There's currently some squabbling on the Birmingham page about whether or not there should be a direct link to here. Do you guys think there should be a direct link to here? (ie, at the top whether or not it should say 'for the city in the United States, please see Birmingham, Alabama') Proto t c 5 July 2005 11:31 (UTC)

    • In my opinion, a single link to the disambiguation page is fine. The current phrasing: "For one of the cities in the United States called Birmingham, please see Birmingham, Alabama." is pretty clunky. I'll get on their talk page and cast my vote. Dystopos 5 July 2005 13:57 (UTC)

Thanks. The clunkyness is because at the time you looked at it, one of the dissenting guys had messed around with it to make a point. It should read "This article is about the city in England. For the city in the United States, please see Birmingham, Alabama". Less clunky. Proto t c 5 July 2005 14:31 (UTC)

I like the way this has been resolved.--Alarob 02:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Early names of B'ham

There's no reference to Elyton, the settlement preceding Birmingham - just a mention of Elyton Land Co. I'd like to verify this w/ the Historical Society, but it's my understanding that originally there was a village called "Frog Level" here, which became Elyton, then Birmingham. (Seems there was also a "Frog Level" in Fayette County, so there may be some confusion on this point.)

      • I've done quite a bit of research on Birmingham, AL and I am also a native of the area (3 generations). "Frog Level" is a new one on me but the early name for the area where Birmingham is now was "Jones Valley", so named because Jones was the first homestead in the valley. The USGS mineral survey of this area in the mid to late 1800's caused an industrial boom of mining industry. Major mining companies located here overnight and in a post civil war economy where jobs were needed many people relocated to the area for mining jobs. Investors also relocated and made nice profits on the local business. The result was a 500% boom in population and mining camps that were geographically spread apart. Many of the inner city communities take their names from these camps such as "Powderly". Other cities sprang up to accommodate the newly wealthy investors. Birmingham's nick name "The Magic City" has two stories associated with it and both actually sound plausible. One is that when Birmingham annexed approximately 10 local cities and towns in 1910 or 1911 all at the same time (true fact), it grew overnight, magically appearing. The second is that Sloss Furnace (the heart of the pig iron foundry industry in Birmingham) at night looked like magic because the sparks that flew from the foundry at night were a little like fireworks. The book "This is Birmingham" credits the Birmingham economic development committee for trying to sell Birmingham as "Mineral City" "Industrial City" as well, but the generally accepted chain of names is Jones Valley, Elyton (slightly to the west of Birmingham) and then Birmingham. Birmingham's sister city is in fact Birmingham, England. I'll leave editing or incorporating any of this to those who are already discussing it.

On the last page of Deed Book No. 1 in the Probate Office downtown Birmingham, there's a hand-drawn map of "Old Town, alias Frog Level." I'm told it's a plan for the layout of Elyton. lhanke

I've found a reference to "Frog Level" as the original name of Elyton, hence of Birmingham, in Virginia Foscue's Alabama Place Names.
Jones Valley is not the name of a settlement, but of a geographic feature: the valley north of Red Mountain is still called Jones Valley today.
"Frog Level" strikes me as singularly appropriate, and I think anyone who steps outdoors on a summer night in Birmingham is likely to agree. Amphibian choral music from dusk to dawn. --Alarob 05:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Nicknames

(copied from User Talk:Dystopos#Nicknames of Birmingham in response to my removing "B'ham" and "Da Ham" from the "nicknames" section of the infobox:)

  • "Da Ham" is a nickname the younger generation in Birmingham uses. Also like the nickname "The ATL" for Atlanta, "Da Ham" was a nickname created by the younger people who are part of the hip hop generation and those from the inner-city areas in the late 1990's and early 2000's. I know of numerous rap songs that have called Birmingham "Da Ham" from many local rap artists. -User:65.147.208.185 9:33 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment. I think it's worth discussing this on the Talk:Birmingham, Alabama page in order to find a consensus view about what nickname(s) to use in the info box. In my opinion, I'd rather see a source saying plainly that "Da Ham" is a commonly-used nickname for Birmingham. At the same time, it's clear that "Pittsburgh of the South" isn't in common use now. It was mainly a marketing slogan to attract capital investment and skilled labor in the early 20th century. So there's a legitimate inconsistency to be resolved in order to determine what is "encyclopedic". Dystopos 15:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
A couple of links for you. (And it's "The Ham" or "the 'ham", not necessarily "Da Ham").
OTOH no one presently living uses "Pittsburgh of the South," I'd guess. --Alarob 05:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The only real "source" that uses such phrase would be the radio station [95.7 jamz]. However, personally hailing from Birmingham I have never heard of anyone using the phrase. Scurker 19:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's slang, rather than a promotional nickname devised by city fathers (as "Pittsburgh of the South" was), so it will not immediately appear in written sources, especially not "credible" ones. The use of "The Ham" by two media outlets seems significant, though. FWIW, as I revisited this thread today, I realized that in the last few months I have caught myself using the term myself after listening to students from Birmingham at Auburn University. Still, slang is always volatile, and the phrase may very well fall out of usage at about the time that it becomes formally documented. -- Rob C (Alarob) 13:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Userbox

This user lives in or hails
from Birmingham.

There is a user box available for your use shown at right.

Add the following to your user page if you'd like to:

{{user Birmingham, Alabama}}

Opining

Many years ago, during Birmingham's steel days many called Birmingham the Magic.....now you see it....now you don't...due to the smoke billowing from the steel mills.

Some might even refer to it as the Tragic City.....due to the political climate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.254.22.50 (talk)

Y'all please try and remember to sign your comments. Alarob 14:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

  • Can we have a piece on pronunciation please, contrasting it to Birmingham, UK. --unsigned comment by User:129.11.251.100
  • There is no official pronunciation of Birmingham, Alabama. Locals usually pronounce it with the US dictionary pronunciation, so I'll add that to the introductory paragraph. --Dystopos 18:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

African American middle class

  • What does the phrase "a significant but rigorously segregated African American middle class" even mean? Sounds like someone tried to sound scholarly, but ended up making an unsupported cultural accusation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.86.125 (talk)
    • It means that a significant part of Birmingham's population was African American and middle class, but that segregation laws and practices based on race insured that African American middle class neighborhoods were separate from White middle class neighborhoods. What unsupported cultural accusation did you detect? --Dystopos 18:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

bɝmɪŋˌhæm is what is listed on the page, however, isn't 'æ' pronounced as in daemon? or does conjoining the 'ae' turn it into a short 'a' sound? Jonomacdrones 18:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That is correct. The pronunciation is in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). See IPA chart for English. -- Rob C (Alarob) 00:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use images

I removed the logos that were in place on the article. The placement of those logos in this article violates rule #8 of the fair use criteria. Let me know if you have any questions.--NMajdan•talk 22:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

External Links - Newspapers

I notice that we have most of the newspapers being mentioned (and Wiki-linked, ELed) in the Media Section and then the ELs all appears again in this article's EL section. This seems a little redundant, since if people are interested in learning more about the newspaper or its contents, they will go to the WP page, which has the EL listed, or find the EL in the article itself. I propose removing these duplicated links. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree that providing external links both in the text and the external links section is redundant. I also don't see a need for every newspaper to be provided an external link. I would defend the inclusion of a few external links to major newspapers here because they are not merely of interest to those seeking information about the newspapers themselves. They provide (mostly) accurate, neutral, up-to-date information about the city which is too detailed and proprietary to include in this encyclopedia (See WP:EL#What_should_be_linked). --Dystopos 23:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Article Quality Rating

In this discussion section, I don't see anything about the article's quality rating, so I assumed it was just not rated, but when I went to the page of all of the unassessed WikiProject Cities articles, it wasn't there. Even after checking all of the other cities in the quality rating scale, it just wasn't there. This page says the article is in WikiProject Cities, but it just doesn't seem to be there at all. I had no idea of where else to put this query, and I thought this was for the benefit of the article, so it's here on the discussion page. Sorry if this was the totally wrong place to put this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bamarox5 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I've now tagged it with {{WPCities}}, so this should draw the attention of those who like to rate articles. As to the rest, I'm not sure. auburnpilot talk 20:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Consider it rated by Wikipedia:WikiProject Alabama. Please feel free to comment and adjust as appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JodyB (talk • contribs) 19:38, 27 April 2007

Culture

I attempted to add the Bottletree to the list of music venues (under Workplay to be exact), but my revision was restored. Being one of the best independent music clubs in Birmingham (they bring in a lot of national touring acts), I really feel like they deserve a mention. It's especially handy if someone is just moving to the area and looking for a place to hang out and listen to some music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awthomp (talk • contribs) 19:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a link directory; see WP:EL for more info. Thanks, OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

How is that being a link directory? It's a real establishment that is worth mentioning. If I am to follow your logic, then I would be inclined to wonder why Workplay is still listed under Culture. I just want this to remain consistent.

Thanks

flag of senegal

there is no the flag of senegal.svg, for the list of sister cities. Borry (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Civitan International Presence

I've recently been expanding articles about Civitan International, a nonprofit organization of service clubs with a focus on helping developmentally disabled people. They're now found in 25 countries, but the group was founded in Birmingham and is still headquartered there. That's not mentioned in Birmingham's article.

I thought about adding it to the history section with the part about early 1900s optimism & growth, but I don't know that it's really notable enough to go there. But then again, it doesn't really seem to fit anywhere else in the article, either. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to place it? If not, I'll just add it to the history section. SU Linguist (talk)

After scanning through the article I agree that the History section would be the appropriate place to add such a note. Be sure to place it in contex as you suggested, rather than just stating "in 19xx the Civitan Club was founded" as a stand-alone sentence. Don't forget to include a reference for your addition. Also, don't forget to sign your messages on the talk page with four ~, it would be helpful to add such to your above question. Best wishes. Civilengtiger (talk) 18:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately I think there's probably enough importance to the subject to have an article about Civic clubs in Birmingham, Alabama, given not only the presence of Civitan International but also Birmingham's importance to Kiwanis Club history and, in the other direction, the importance of the Jaycees and Young Men's Business Association in providing a progressive voice at critical moments in the city's history. Until then, the small mention here and fuller coverage in the Civitan International article seems appropriate. --Dystopos (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Crime section

This section is problematic. It puts misplaced criticism on the mayor and on the use of statistics. I'll attempt a rewrite at some point, but if someone else wants to tackle it before I get to it, I can offer a brief synopsis of the last 5 years' stats and some context and references here. --Dystopos (talk) 23:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Boosterism

I am struck by the use of terms like stupendous and powerhouse in this article. As a Birminghammer myself, and being fond of the place, I sympathize with the wish to make it look good. But please bear in mind that boosterism can have the opposite effect. To a neutral reader this language probably seems overdone and a little shrill. The only use of powerhouse in an encyclopedia, I would suggest, is to describe an electrical generating station, or in an appropriate direct quotation. Alarob 14:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I am struck that you used the term "Birminghammer" which is thoroughly incorrect and inexcusable for a Birminghamian.Robberex 20:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Robberex

I questions "Today, Birmingham ranks as one of the most important business centers in the Southeastern United States." Is a citataion needed here or would this qualify as boosterism? Captain Deez (talk) 13:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Birmingham Civil Rights Movement

Who is Emily Valintins, and why did she list her name as the author of this section? Also, why is there an entire paragraph about the conflict at ABC over how to cover the protests. This section needs to be completely rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pensacolanate (talk • contribs) 08:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Historical sources

I'm surprised that the early history of the city relies solely on Margaret Armbrester's The Civitan Story, a history of a civic club. Perhaps that helps account for the tone: part nostalgic, part boosterish, anything but neutral. I think the early history needs a rewrite based on other sources. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 13:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Rolling Stone article connecting local corruption, Wall Street financing, and sewer system controversy

See http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/32906678/looting_main_street ... AnonMoos (talk) 19:36, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess most of what Wikipedia has on the subject is at Jefferson County, Alabama#Sewer_construction_and_bond_swap_controversy; that should be more prominently linked from this article... AnonMoos (talk) 19:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Birmingham

FYI, there is an effort to create a WikiProject for the city in England, under the name "WikiProject Birmingham", see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Birmingham. 76.66.193.224 (talk) 01:51, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Samford has the school of pharmacy

"Between these two universities, Birmingham has major colleges of medicine, dentistry, optometry, pharmacy, law, engineering, and nursing."

This is incorrect; the two universities listed, UAB and Birmingham Southern, do not have a pharmacy school; Samford University does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.228.221 (talk) 20:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

ACIPCO

Economy: The American Cast Iron Pipe Company (ACIPCO)is not mentioned at all, this should change. More info can be fond on this site http://www.acipco.com/about.cfm Smittycity42 04:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)smittycity42[[Category:]]

Agreed. Why not go ahead and write it? -- Alarob 19:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I think ACIPCO could find a place in this article. I wouldn't venture to write it myself, as I know very little on this specific topic, but I can see it in the article. Smittycity42, go for it. AuburnPilotTalk 20:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks like I neglected to check back here... Sorry about that, there appears to be an ACIPCO page already http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/American_Cast_Iron_Pipe_Company so it just needs to be linked. I can do that if it's alright.Smittycity42 (talk) 04:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)smittycity42
I added reference to American Cast Iron Pipe Company and Wiki linked it in the Economy section of the article.--Liaws (talk) 21:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

KKK

Birmingham is also the National headquarters for the [Ku Klux Klan](KKK) ironic isn't it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arterycommunications (talk • contribs) 03:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC) link title —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arterycommunications (talk • contribs) 03:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd love to see your source for that assertion. Neither of the websites I found claiming to be the official site of the KKK gave an address in Alabama; one is based in Texas and another in Arkansas. --auburnpilot talk 04:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
True or not (KKK can identify multiple organizations), I don't know why that would be considered "ironic". 198.70.193.2 (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

"Port Birmingham"?

I have never heard of "Port Birmingham"; while I lived there I can only remember it being called "Birmingport". 198.70.193.2 (talk) 15:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Uab campus night shot .jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Uab campus night shot .jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
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Introductory Section

Personally, I enjoy large introductory sections... however, to the common user, I can't help but think that the current introductory section is entirely too large. I'm good at making things concise, so I'd be glad to take on the challenge; however, I think we need to decide what information is most important to present in the initial "presentation". Yes, Birmingham is a great/large city, but there is no reason why its introduction should rival NYC's. The city has a lot to tell, but it shouldn't take so much initial space.

Give me your opinions. I won't change a thing if we all present a legit reason not to. AlaGuy (talk) 06:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The lead section is a tad wordy. For example, there's too much detail about UAB.
Should you want to rework the lead please review WP:LEAD first. You may also want to see one or two examples of well-crafted FA-class articles about cities to see how they handle lead sections. Majoreditor (talk) 04:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Earthquakes

What does "The Birmingham area is not prone to earthquakes, yet historical activity is around 60% smaller than the US average" mean? I cannot interpret it at all!203.184.41.226 (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak specifically about Birmingham , but Alabama does experience an occasional mild earthquake. The state has earthquake codes, but minor compared to like California. I guess the last part of that is saying Birmingham experiences 60% fewer earthquakes than the US average, whatever that is.

Structure

Hi. I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure. Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. I won't be changing any content, merely the order. Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues. I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out. Thoughts? Onel5969 (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Intercity bus service

Praytell, what is the objection to listing the fact that Greyhound provides intercity bus service to this city? Myself and another editor have been repeatedly reverted for adding that fact. John from Idegon (talk) 03:13, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I have done a bit of research, and Megabus (North America) also provides intercity bus service to Memphis and Atlanta. I am going to re-add the bit about Greyhound again and also add the bit about Megabus, both referenced to the companies' websites. I really do not understand what the brouhaha is about adding informative info for the readers of this article. What else would you propose referencing intercity bus service to besides the companies' websites? Calling that spam is ludicrous. John from Idegon (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Someone beat me to it on re-adding Greyhound, but I added a bit about Megabus. John from Idegon (talk) 03:28, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Birmingham, Alabama

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 09:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Suburbs

I don't believe that Talladega, Clanton, or Cullman should be included as Birmingham suburbs. They are far too distant to logically be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.137.212.237 (talk) 01:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree, Jasper really isn't either. It's closer than Cullman but farther than Clanton. 209.142.164.193 (talk) 21:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Councilman brawl

I wanted to discuss content that might be worth adding before I did so myself to avoid WP:NOTNEWS. The mayor of Birmingham and a council member were recently involved in what CNN described as a "brawl" at a city council meeting. The council member was charged with third degree assault. I was thinking about adding this information to the Government section, but it seems a bit out of place there. I'd like to hear what others think. Meatsgains (talk) 23:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Civil Rights

I made an edit to the Civil Rights section linking it with information on Anniston Alabama and the Freedom Riders, is there a reason the edits didn't go through? I cited everything pretty well. User: SitSemperPeius —Preceding undated comment added 18:06, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Slavery by Another Name

Slavery by Another Name is one of the most important histories of the industrial development of the South written recently. It was the subject of a PBS miniseries, and is the subject of its own Wikipedia article. This book is taught at universities. I am sorry I do not know how to source it other than to link its Wikipedia article. But equally, what precedes it is an unsourced assertion that 'economic opportunity' drew black people to Birmingham. Yet this sourced statement, summarizing this book in one sentence, has been reverted twice. Has either of you read this book?

I am terribly sorry that the shameful history of white people in the South brings white people in the South so much shame, so much so that they feel they have to hide it from public view. The author of this book received death threats while writing it. But it is worthy of its own Wikipedia article, and it is worthy of being referenced in the article that is its own subject matter.

I am escalating this. Zweifel (talk) 19:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? You just assume that the only reason someone might remove your additions is that they are white people who are ashamed of a history of slavery and are trying to hide it? Now that's prejudice. Please strike it out, and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion. - BilCat (talk) 21:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
My concern is that User:Zweifel's edit to the article made a sweeping statement, but provided a vague reference. The convict-lease system is well documented, and the subject has its own Wikipedia article. This source states that black prisoners were used in Birmingham and in the local mines, while this source states that mostly-black prisoners produced 18 percent of Alabama's coal in 1885. I have not found a source to support that "much of Birmingham's early industrial labor" was convict-lease, though some certainly was. Without exact figures, perhaps a line could be added that "the use of child labor and African-American convict lease labor was documented in Birmingham's post Civil War industrial development". Magnolia677 (talk) 22:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
It is doubtful that this is differentiating content about this particular city. I see no need for it here. It's a reasonable certainty that the same could be said for many if not most southern cities. The topic of this article is this city. Adding inflammatory content that is not unique to this city is simply off topic. Especially if the only source you have is one book, which at the end of the day, represents one person's take on it. John from Idegon (talk) 06:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
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