Talk:Bengali dialects

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Western accents

I think someone needs to work on the accents spoken in West Bengal. Only accents from Bangladeshi regions currently have samples. Also, I think the sentence chosen wasn't very good because it doesn't denote the main differences in the East-West divide. Something like "Manush akasher dike takiye cha(n)d dekhchhilo"/"Mainshe asmaner dihe tahaye chad dakhtesilo"/etc would be better since it shows the "change of vowel position within words", "shortening of verbs in the West", "lack of nasal sound in the East" and also "use of Perso-Arabic words in the East" in one sentence. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.192.44 (talk) 01:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but I wanted to stick to using examples from published work, instead of making up my own sentence, even though I agree that the sentence you put together would be more representative of the various differences across the dialect continuum. I could even add in my own family's pronunciation just for fun! মাইন্‌শে আকাশের্‌ দিকে তাকায়্‌ চান্দ্‌ দেক্‌তেসিলো Mainshe akasher dike takae chand dektesilo (মানুষে আকাশের দিকে তাকাইয়া চাঁদ দেখিতেছিল). --SameerKhan (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These things are always so tricky. I'm not a linguist but I'm sure there's not a lot of published work on the accents of Bengali. Unfortunately WP wouldn't be very happy if all the Bengali editors on WP just started adding their own accents - original research, etc. Meh... I added my local dialect on the list, but I guess it shouldn't be there since it's original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.160.166 (talk) 07:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rajbangshi

Is not this a dialect of Bengali language? This whole article is flowed.Ovsek (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Shahin911 (talk) 04:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC) Fixed it Shahin911 (talk) 23:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bangladeshi Influence

The entire article has an overwhelming bangladeshi influence. One should remember that Bengal does not mean Bangladesh alone, it means West Bengal and Tripura along with bangladesh. Where are the Indian Bengali Dialects????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratyaykundu (talk • contribs) 06:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Retroflex

The article currently states that the Western dialects of Bengali use retroflex consonants, but I believe that to not be the case. When people are talking normally, you are more likely to hear apical post-alveolar.Stormmaashrooms (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Shuddhobhasa

A discussion of the concept of "shuddhobhasa" would be helpful.

References

Map, classification, and sources

In this edit I replaced the two sources that were cited in the map caption with {{citation needed}}, and replaced the second source in the classification section with {{additional citation needed}}.

The short explanation is that any geographic information in the first source is too vague to be the origin of the mapped data (e.g. "Banga dialect is mainly spoken in East-Bengal (Modern Bangladesh)"). And the citation of the second source is so incomplete that it is effectively unverifiable. Sukumar Sen wrote extensively about the Bengali language, but I can find no book of his with this title. A publisher is provided, but no year, and no url/isbn/oclc or other link that might help. Even if the book could be identified, no page number is given. With regard to the second source in the classification section, about a year ago the citation was broken and incorrectly repaired. Until then, it was the same as the incomplete citation already described. Because it is effectively unverifiable, it has not been restored.

The long explanation is arrived at by examining the article history:

25 Aug 2017 Asm sultan adds classification section
13 Sep 2017 Asm sultan adds first source to classification section, "বাংলা ভাষা ও উপভাষা, সুকুমার সেন, আনন্দ পাবলিশার্স [Bengali Language and Dialect, Sukumar Sen, Ananda Publishers]"
16 Oct 2017 Batternut adds a second source to classification section, Bandyopadhyay, Anita (2001). "Problems of Phonetic Transcription in Bengali". Praci-Bhasha-Vijnan Indian Journal of Linguistics. 20: 79. OCLC 2256120.
18 Aug 2018 Stormmaashrooms adds self-made map, citing no sources
23 Aug 2018 Msasag tags map with {{citation needed}}
28 May 2020 UserNumber removes unsourced map
1 Jun 2020 IP editor restores map and copies to its caption the two inline citations in the classification section
26 Mar 2021 Mahakaal2003 breaks the classification section referencing by deleting the definition of named reference "ReferenceA"
25 Mar 2021 Sbb tries to rescue "ReferenceA" but (presumably mistakenly) connects it to a completely different Bengali source, Ahsan 2000
15 Sep 2021 SalamAlayka changes to a different map, supposedly based on P. R. Sarkar, but leaves the inline citations in the caption unchanged

So in addition to the sourcing problems described in my short explanation, the sources that ended up in the map caption were probably never the origin of the map. They were copied there by the IP editor likely just to keep the map from being removed again. Moreover, the map has since changed, and its new name suggests it is now based on a work by P. R. Sarkar, but the citations haven't been updated accordingly.

If anyone can add to the caption an accurate source for the map data, please do so. If you can add to the classification section a citation sufficiently complete to be verifiable, please do that too. --Worldbruce (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fylindfotberserk:, just tagged you to this conversation. You may find this information helpful. This map is a scam. Aideppp (talk) 03:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Far beyond what Bandyopadhyay says about dialects

@CharlesWain: In this edit you removed the cleanup tag "{{Additional citation needed|date=April 2022|reason=The source doesn't say they classified the dialects by phonology and pronunciation, and it is unclear how Kamarupi and Jharkhandi in the source map to Rangpuri and Manbhumi in the list below.}}" with the statement in your edit summary: "Well sourced, quotation is there. Geographical distribution is the clarification."

It is not well sourced. The statement in the article is:

Suniti Kumar Chatterji and Sukumar Sen classified Bengali dialects in five classes by their phonology and pronunciation. (emphasis mine)

Bengali dialect ...
Rarhi dialect ...
Varendri dialect ...
Rangpuri dialect ...
Manbhumi dialect ...
Sundarbani dialect ...

The quotation from the source (Bandyopadhyay) is:

We all know that there are 4 or 5 dialects of the Bengali language. These are, according to Professor Suniti Kumar Chatterji and Sukumar Sen - Rarhi, Barendra, Kamarupi, Banga and Jharkhandi as added by Dr. S. Sen.

First, there exist different ways of classifying dialects. The source doesn't say how Chatterji and Sen classified them (nothing about phonology and pronunciation).

Second, there is no explanation of why, when the source identifies Banga, Rarhi, Barendra, Kamarupi, and Jharkhandi, Wikipedia is using the names Bengali, Rarhi, Varendri, Rangpuri, Manbhumi, and Sundarbani. If the cited source doesn't call them that, what source does? Wikipedia serves a varied audience and aims to make articles as understandable as feasible to as many readers as possible. Non-expert readers may not know that Kamarup is in Assam and are unlikely to readily connect the dots to realize that what the source calls Kamrupi is what we're calling Rangpuri. Moreover, the source contains no description of how the dialects are distributed geographically (other than that Banga is mainly spoken in modern Bangladesh), so where do these geographical descriptions come from?

Those are the reasons that an additional (or better) source is needed. I have restored the cleanup tag because the problems it highlights have not been resolved. --Worldbruce (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Worldbruce, I have added a source where all the details are given. Sundarbani isn't a dialect, neither the source nor the article is mentioning so. There's no Rangpuri dialect either as per Sukumar Sen's classification. CharlesWain (talk) 12:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I look forward to reading those pages of Bhāshāra itibr̥tta next time I'm at a library. --Worldbruce (talk) 13:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]