Talk:Battle of Krasnoi

Archive: September 2006 – March 2008

Participation of the V Corps

According to this source (Jadwiga Nadzieja (1988). Od Jakobina do księcia namiestnika. Wydawnictwo "Śląsk". ISBN 978-83-216-0682-8., p.214-215), the V Corps under Józef Zajączek arrived in Krasnoi on the evening of 14 November, left on the following day (as our article states) but according to Nadzieja then moved to Lada, Dubrowna, and around 16 or 17 (she is not clear) returned to Krasnoi and took part in the battle. This should be clarified. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Your input is welcome, but I disagree with part of your reasoning. Consider the following points.

The statement that, "On November 14, the corps of Józef Zajączek (V Corps) and Junot, at the helm of the retreating French army, passed through Krasny and continued marching west to Orsha," doesn't imply that the V Corps didn't take part in the battle. Rather, the statement describes what happened on November 14th, during the battle's prelude. That the V Corps (or, more likely elements of the V Corps) were recalled on November 16th or 17th doesn't change the fact that, initially, this unit passed through Krasnoi and continued retreating to the west. Thus, there is nothing misleading about the statement.

On the other hand, further down in the article where the events of November 16th are 17th are described, I could add additional information elaborating that the V Corps (or parts of it) were recalled to Krasnoi. I'll have to research this issue.

Incidentally, I know for a fact that no elements of the V Corps partook in the three chief actions of November 16th and 17th, which involved the French IV Corps, I Corps, and Imperial Guard. My guess is that part of the V Corps was recalled by Napoleon on November 17th for the purpose of guarding the western road against the pending advance of Tormasov, who was readying to cut-off Napoleon's line-of-retreat. Whatever the case, none of the sources I used addressed this aspect of the V Corps involvement in the battle.

Kenmore (talk) 01:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Kenmore (talk) 00:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)Kenmore, December 5th, 2013

@User:Kenmore: I don't have access to Nadzieja. My concern is about the following unreferenced sentence "On November 14, the corps of Józef Zajączek (V Corps) and Junot, at the helm of the retreating French army, passed through Krasny and continued marching west to Orsha." we have in the article. As I described above, this is misleading, as according to Nadzieja, Z. and his V Corps returned to Krasnoi shortly afterward and took part in the fighting, whereas our article suggests they didn't take part in the battle. Unless sources to the contrary can be show, we should update the article to include V Corps and Z. as the battle participants. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read my comment above regarding the V Corps' march through Krasnoi on March 14th. Also, I just checked Riehn again today, and sure enough, he says nothing about Zajaczek. The fact of the matter is that the V Corps was always regarded as Poniatowski's corps; Zajaczek was just temporarily replacing Poniatowski at the time of this battle. Every account I've read so far (and I list my sources in this article) refers to the V Corps as that of Poniatowski. If anything, Zajaczek's involvement could be added to the article as a footnote, but nothing more than that, really.

Another concern I have about your feedback is that you seem to advocate that each and every sentence needs to be footnoted. As a matter of fact, the article is already heavily footnoted. It would be helpful if you could post your Wikipedia footnoting guidelines here, and give a few more examples of statements that you believe are in error, or which need to be footnoted. As for everyone else, if anyone's interested in collaborating with me on this project, just send me an email. Kenmore (talk) 09:54, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

B-class review

I am failing this, there are several unferenced paragraphs. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the article should retain its B-class rating.

I'm looking for MILHIST volunteers to collaborate with me on this project. If anyone's interested, send me a message. Thanks.Kenmore (talk) 01:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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Not good...

I wrote this article in 2006 because I wanted to promote awareness among Westerners about the Battle of Krasnoi. But all the successive edits have made the article less informative than what I originally intended. I recall putting a carefully worded sentence or two in the introductory paragraph, emphasizing that this encounter was not so much a battle as it was a series of skirmishes, ambushes, raids, marches and counter-marches. That information is essential to understanding the nature of the so-called Battle of Krasnoi. It's not good that someone eliminated that wording.

Again, if anyone wants to collaborate in order to improve the quality of the writing and upgrade the narrative, please don't hesitate to contact me. I've read many historical accounts of this engagement, and plan to tour the battle site in person pretty soon. I'm always interested in discussing this little-known but momentous historical event with anyone.--Kenmore (talk) 23:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Suggested change of one word that caught my eye

Interesting article. Can I respectfully suggest the change of a word? In the second to last sentence under 'Combat near Uvarovo' I suggest changing the word 'atomized' to 'broken up'. It would seem to be a more common military term to me. Just a thought. Thankyou. Mov326 (talk) 07:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done, thanks--Ymblanter (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. However, the data in footnote #2 has been mixed up. Whoever edited that footnote has made the mistake of confusing the November 15th French Guard attack on the Russian flying column with a subsequent, November 17th feint made by the Guard against the Russian central position. The were two separate events. If we can talk, I'll explain my point in detail. Best Regards,Kenmore (talk) 20:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Kenmore:, would you mind just editing the article?--Ymblanter (talk) 11:31, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Old style, New style

I just arrived on a Russian website which has an article on the battle of Krasny. For them the dates are different. It will not harm to mention those Old Style dates in the article. Then my eyes were caught by the following sentence:

"The rear of Napoleon's columns was cut off from the main forces, ran back to Smolensk, and then was captured." It explains why there were at least 400 POW in Smolensk from the 4th battalion of the 33rd Regiment on 20 November 1812. This detail I found in: E.J. Rieksen (2020) Voetstappen zonder echo. Het oud-Hollandse 2e/3e/1e Regiment Jagers-33e regiment lichte infanterie aan het werk in de Franse Tijd 1806-1814, p. 79-86.

This is the computer translation, perhaps it can explain some of the events.Taksen (talk) 07:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Battle of Krasny on November 3, 1812

On November 3, 1812, another battle for the city of Krasny took place in the Patriotic war of 1812. But already under the circumstances of the flight of the Grand French army.

Before that, November 2, 1812:Kutuzov with the main forces moved to Volkov and Yurov Miloradovich to knyaginino and Rogailovo Raevsky was moving to Rogailovo to connect with Miloradovich Osterman was moving to Kobyzevo Ozharovsky was in Kutkov Platov was stationed at Smolensk on Pokrovskaya Gora and drove Ney (the rearguard of the French army) into Smolensk. At the same time, he sent patrols in all directions, preventing the French from foraging.

On November 3, 1812, Miloradovich saw the French army before reaching Krasny. He set up his guns and opened fire. At the same time, he made cavalry attacks.

The attacks put the French in disarray, but nevertheless did not prevent Napoleon from approaching red And capturing it.

The rear of Napoleon's columns was cut off from the main forces, ran back to Smolensk, and then was captured.

Napoleon was waiting in Krasny for Beauharnais, Davout, and Ney to arrive.

At night, he attacked Ozharovsky and drove him out of Kutkov. Ozharovsky suffered heavy losses, but saved the artillery.

On November 4, 1812, Kutuzov marched with the main forces from Volkov to Krasny.

In the area of Rzhavka, Miloradovich noticed the Viceroy's body moving towards Krasny.

Miloradovich deployed Dolgorukov's corps , the 1st cavalry and Rayevsky's corps (which at that moment had only one Paskevich division) across the road and attacked Beauharnais. The French tried to break through, but were defeated everywhere and dispersed. Further, the French made their way in small groups to Krasny. In this battle, 1,500 prisoners and the remaining 17 guns of Beauharnais were taken.

Napoleon was waiting Krasny for Davout, which was due to arrive on November 5, 1812, and Ney, which was due to arrive on November 6, 1812.

Kutuzov was going to attack the enemy on November 5, 1812, and send part of the troops to Napoleon's rear. Consequently: Kutuzov positioned part of the troops at Novoselok and Shilovo 5 versts from Krasny Tormasov was subordinate to the corps of Dokhturov and Borozdin, the guards and the 1st cuirassier division, which were to March on November 5, 1812 to Dobroy, in order to cut off Napoleon's road to Lyady. Prince Golitsyn was subordinate (his part was smaller) to Stroganov's corps and the 2nd cuirassier division and had to go from Novoselok to Uvarovo. Osterman was supposed to move from Kobyzevo to Korytino, which was supposed to pretend to attack Smolensk, but in reality drive the French to our main army. Ozharovsky was supposed to make raids in the direction of Sinyakov? Miloradovich was supposed to be between Nikulin and Merlin and let Davout pass and attack him from the rear.

On November 5, 1812, Napoleon ordered an attack on Uvarovo, which was occupied by Prince Golitsyn.

Galitsyn could not attack the superior forces of the French and was limited to holding back their onslaught and firing cannons, waiting for help from Miloradovich.

Miloradovich, having missed Davout, began to push him from the rear. Part of Davout's corps tried to break through the forests to Krasny, and some were captured (about 1,000 people).

Meanwhile, Prince Golitsyn managed to break the advanced French squares.

Napoleon, seeing widespread failure, ordered a retreat.

Part of Davout's corps and the remnants of Beauharnais ' corps managed to break through to Napoleon. But Ney knew that Napoleon was no longer worth waiting for.

Napoleon left Krasny and moved towards Dobry.

Tormasov did not have time to block the road to Napoleon in Dobro, only part of the rearguard was defeated by him. Some of the French, who did not have time to reach Dobrogo, scattered through the forests and advanced in small groups to the Dnieper.

In the battles near Krasny, Napoleon lost more than 9,000 men killed, wounded and captured, 52 officers, 2 generals, 70 guns and many convoys.

On the part of the Russians, the losses amounted to 800 people.

As we already know, Ney was cut off from the main forces.

Miloradovich offered him change, but Ney didn't agree. He tried to break through, but it didn't work out.

On November 7, 1812, Ney's corps was defeated, and he himself with the remnants of small groups passed through the forests to the Dnieper where he tried to cross.

Ney himself and a small part of the French were able to make the crossing, others drowned in the Dnieper (as the ice was weak), and another part was captured.

About 12,000 men from Ney's corps were captured.[1]

Hi Taksen,

Thanks for the input. I am familiar with the Russian versions of the Battle of Krasnoi. In fact, I did quote a few Russian sources when I wrote the original article. But there are a couple of problems with the standard Russian version of this encounter. First, Russian sources tend to describe the engagement as a full-fledged battle, when in truth it was little more than a series of disjointed skirmishes, raids, maneuvers, and long-range artillery bombardments. Second, standard Russian versions tend to overplay the Russian army's success at Krasnoi, as if a "Waterloo" style victory had been won. This is what I have gleaned from reading Russian sources, and from studying the assessments of Krasnoi written by Professor Alexander Mikaberidze, an expert on the Napoleonic Wars who teaches at Mississippi State University.

I'll point out one part of your Russian narrative as an example. That concerns the claim that on November 5th "Napoleon ordered an attack on Uvarovo." In truth, Napoleon didn't order an all-out offensive. Rather, he ordered an aggressive feint - or a demonstration in force - by his Guard, directed against the center of the Russian position. Napoleon knew that he lacked the troops and artillery to actually attack the Russian position. To attempt such an attack, in fact, would have been suicidal given that the Russian center consisted of tens of thousands more troops than the Guard possessed, and that the Russians had hundreds of artillery pieces to defend their ground. Therefore, Napoleon was trying to bluff the Russians; he boldly and correctly perceived that an aggressive feint would induce Kutusov to temporarily suspend the Russian attacks on the retreating French army. Simply put, the Russian versions of the battle overlook this nuance of Napoleon's attack - really just a feint - on November 5th.

Another exaggeration I noticed in the Russian account (about the Guard's advance) is the statement that "Napoleon, seeing widespread failure, ordered a retreat." This is not exactly the truth. In reality, the Guard's aggressive feint on November 5th enabled Napoleon to save Davout's corps, which would otherwise have been destroyed by Miloradovich. To achieve this, all Napoleon expected of the Guard was that it absorbed punishment for six hours without breaking ranks. So, in some ways, the Guard's famous feint was successful. But it must also be stressed that Napoleon ordered the Guard to retreat without waiting for Ney's corps to reach Krasnoi, and from there, safety.

Whatever the case, I must say that Russian accounts of Krasnoi are much less inaccurate than traditional French and Western descriptions of the engagement. Standard French versions describe Krasnoi as a "French victory," based on the myth that the Guard fought a successful rear-guard action at that town. It's nonsense to claim that Krasnoi was any kind of French victory. That's because Napoleon had to abandon Ney to his fate, and on top of that, other French corps suffered dreadful beatings in the vicinity of Krasnoi during the successive days of skirmishing.

But thanks for posting the Russian version anyway. There is at least some truth to that narrative, particularly the way it summarizes the succession of skirmishes over time and space. That's why the narrative of my article follows each of the developments (that you list) in chronological order, as events unfolded between 15 October and 18 October 1812 (Old Style).

Kenmore (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, I agree with your suggestion that we find a way to clarify the relationship between Old Style and New Style dates. I believe that I used only New Style dates, even going so far as to translate Old Style dates whenever I found them in Russian texts (i.e. Davydov's memoirs). Let's check professional history books, to see how they clarify the relationship of Old vs New dates. I'm pretty certain they add a comment in parenthesis, indicating Old or New.

Kenmore (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Map

Alright, let me start by saying this is definitely helpful, but also its way too large, and a bit hard to navigate. Maybe redo a bit before inclusion? Flalf^Talk 14:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the classification helpful. Yes, it is too large. Because of that, I inserted it as a suggestion. I will think about it Ruedi33a (talk) 16:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

French invasion of Russia

200km
125miles

Berezina

BD

BC

BB

BA

AZ

Minsk

AX

Krasnoi

AT

AQ

Polotsk

AP

Vilna

11

10

Smolensk

9

Borodino

8

Maloyaro-
slavets

7

Moscow

6

5

4

Vitebsk

3

2

Kowno

1

  

Napoleon 1->11/ Kutuzov BA->BD/ Wittgenstein AP->AQ/ Chichagov AY->AZ

Hi Ruedi33a,

That's certainly an interesting map. But I am wondering if it will confuse people. What do you think? On the subject of large maps which depict the entire scope of the 1812 campaign, I originally put a couple of West Point maps in my article. The librarian at West Point even gave me permission to use the maps. I was careful to credit that institution when I linked those maps to my article. But after that, some overzealous Wiki editor/authority deleted the maps, and failed to give me a reason why.

The original maps I tried to use came from the famous book West Point Atlas for the Wars of Napoleon. Have you seen this famous military atlas before? Please check it out, and let me know if you consider the 1812 Russian Campaign maps to be impressive.

Kenmore (talk) 23:20, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Highest Priority Edits for this Article

Basically, I've got to dig up all the original texts I used for my research, and to reread the passages in order to put references after (virtually) each and every sentence in this article. All the sentences I wrote are derived directly from one text or another; it's just a question of finding the right text and page number, then inserting a reference after each statement.

Also, I notice that other Wiki history articles are making a distinction between references and footnotes. They use numbers for references, and alphabet letters for contextual footnotes and author's comments. Perhaps this should be done on this article. Notice that I used numbers for both references and contextual footnotes.

The data in the info box very much needs to be referenced as well. Somebody recently challenged my figures for French casualties, which I took from an excellent Digby Smith book. That individual (who questioned my figures) pointed out that Smith was quoting Kutusov's official report on the "battle" after hostilities had ended. I suppose it would be best if we quoted multiple estimates of casualties, troops engaged, artillery pieces, etc.

This is all stuff I should have done already, but I've been too busy. If anyone has enthusiasm for doing this "donkey work" with me, let me know, and we'll make a go of it together. Kenmore (talk) 00:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Baron Fain

The view by Agathon Jean François Fain, secretary of Napoleon, on the battle of Krasny:

https://www.napoleon-histoire.com/bataille-de-krasnoie-histoire-du-consulat-et-du-premier-empire/

I hope it helps.Taksen (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

I read Fain's narrative. It's interesting, and essentially true. But for some reason Fain neglects to acknowledge the Grande Armee's huge personnel losses at Krasny. Close to half of Napoleon's force was lost in this encounter, albeit they were mostly stragglers who were often eager to surrender to the Russians just for the sake of obtaining food and shelter. Fain also glosses over the reality that Ney's force was largely destroyed in fighting with Miloradovich on November 18th. Ney began that combat with 8,000 men under arms, but escaped into the forest with no more than 2,000 troops.

Footnote number 11 in Fain's narrative is correct. It is a fact that the Russian army lost its very best soldiers at the Battle of Borodino. Kutusov replaced all of those lost troops with reinforcements in late September or early October, but these fresh soldiers were mostly young conscripts who had just finished basic training and middle-aged militia men pressed into regular military units. Kutusov understood that these reinforcements were untested in battle, and that they probably would not have held up well under fire against the more experienced French troops, particularly the Imperial Guard. For this reason, Kutusov deliberately refrained from launching a full scale attack against the French for the entire period of time that the opposing armies faced each other at Krasnoi.

Kutusov understood that he could do massive damage to the remnants of the Grande Armee just by sending his Cossack forces to harass the French formations, to round up large numbers of prisoners, and to seize the remaining French supply wagons. In truth, Napoleon's losses at Krasnoi were so severe that he was compelled to abandon his plan of wintering in Orsha. Thus, the skirmishes at Krasnoi sealed the Grande Armee's defeat in the war.

One final comment: Napoleon probably would have led his army through Krasnoi with minimum losses except for his colossal - and inexplicable - blunder of allowing his troops to retreat from Smolensk in a 50 long column. Had Napoleon disembarked from Smolensk with his army marching in tight formations, with all the corps ready to support each other, then Kutusov would probably never have dared to take up position at Krasnoi in the first place. Most likely Kutusov would have kept a respectful distance from Krasnoi, and allowed the French army to pass through the town without any disturbance. In that case, Napoleon could have sheltered his wrecked army at Orsha, rebuilt and resupplied his troops during the winter, and emerged from the fortress the following spring to renew the campaign. That might have led to an entirely different outcome for the entire war. Who knows.

Kenmore (talk) 02:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I rewrote the introduction: I think this current version is most factually accurate, informative, and readable.

Today I rewrote the introductory paragraphs for this article. Personally, I hope this version of the introduction stands, and that nobody edits without discussing with me first. This latest version of the introduction, I believe, is most factually accurate, and is sufficiently informative about the nuances of the battle without going into excessive or needlessly overparticular detail. Further, it's readable. Here's a copy of today's rewrite (for future reference in case anyone edits):

The Battle of Krasnoi (Krasny) (November 15 to 18, 1812) was a series of skirmishes fought in the final stage of Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. In this engagement the Russians under General Kutuzov inflicted heavy losses on the remnants of the Grande Armee, which was severely weakened by attrition. Neither Kutuzov nor Napoleon allowed this clash to escalate into a full battle. Throughout the four days of combat, Napoleon sought to rush his troops, extended in a 50 mile line of march, past the Russians, who were positioned parallel to the highway. Despite the vast superiority of the Russian army, Kutuzov refrained from launching a full offensive as he did not want to risk a pitched battle against Napoleon. [1][2][3]

The climax of the engagement occurred on November 17, when an aggressive feint by the French Imperial Guard induced Kutuzov to delay a potentially decisive final attack. This daring maneuver enabled Napoleon to evacuate a large part of his army before the Russians seized Krasny.

Despite Napoleon's successful rear guard action, overall the encounter was ruinous for the French. The corps of Davout, Eugene, and Ney suffered heavy defeats in individual actions during the four days of fighting. Russian Cossacks took large numbers of prisoners, and the Grande Armee was forced to abandon much of its remaining artillery and baggage train.

I hope this latest intro survives.Kenmore (talk) 23:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Problem wih the Dutch last stand

I have two descriptions that seem to indicate that the Voltigeurs advanced in support of the Grenadiers and not the opposite which is written in the article.

Blok and Molhuysen write: Tindal's 3rd Grenadier Regiment, supported by the Dutch Red Lance Regiment, was destined to attack the Russian-occupied village of Uwarowo. Still only 500 men strong, the regiment was formed into one battalion under the command of one of the battalion's cantors, Lieutenant-Colonel George. General Fantin des Odoards, at the time a captain in the 2nd Regiment of Grenadiers, relates in his Journal (Paris 1895, 345), that on that occasion, when Napoleon sent one of the battalions of his Guards (which must have been the battalion of grenadiers of Tindal's regiment) against the enemy, he heard the Emperor say: 'Allons, grenadiers, abordez ces b .... - là. A la guerre comme en amour, il faut se voir de près.' With those words, then, the Dutch grenadiers were ordained to death; for, having fired their cartridges, they continued to hold out until only about 40 of them remained, which was relieved by a battalion of skirmishers of the Young Guard, under Colonel Lenoir. This troop, too, was mowed down by the Russian artillery and cavalry in less than half an hour. [2]

Van Lennep writes: One of these divisions succeeded in fighting its way to him, but the second one, led by Davoust, was (16 Nov.) so encircled by the enemy that Napoleon ordered Marshal Lefebre, who commanded the Old Guard, to send one of the regiments of grenadiers to enable communion with this corps. To this end, Lefebre chose the Dutch regiment, which was already down to 500 men. Led by Superior George, it fearlessly advanced on the enemy, who was already approaching by a long road, and kept him busy until Davoust's troops had approached. Then George received orders to retreat; - he did, but with 40 men. All the others were killed, and the name of that regiment, once called 'Dutch glory' by Napoleon, could henceforth, as after the battle of Borodino that of the regiment of Dutch hussars, be crossed out on the roll of the Grand Army.

The same took place few moments later with the 33rd regiment light infantry, formerly the third regiment of Dutch jagers. Repeatedly pursued, it had each time, by forming itself into a square, repelled the attack of the enemy horsemen; but at last, attacked by foot soldiers and artillery, it was destroyed: no more than 78 men, of whom only 25 were unhurt, remained, but to be taken away as prisoners of war. [3] DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Taksen Before I am gonna start editing that part myself, do you know what is going on here? DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 17:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

For seven years I am involved in this article. I tried to find out what happened and what is worth mentioning. What I did not understand, I did not add. Your details would fit very well in a Dutch version of "Slag om Krasny" or at the 3rd Grenadier Regiment as they go into detail. There is also an article in French on 33rd Regiment. In my point of view these details do not clarify a lot but make the article more difficult to comprehend. I asked someone to advise me in this case.Taksen (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to include most of these details. My point is that there seems to be a conflict of chronological order with these sources. I have two descriptions that seem to indicate that the Voltigeurs advanced in support of the Grenadiers and not the opposite which is written in the article. Since you know the battle far better than I do, you maybe have an explanation? DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 18:31, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Everts mentions voltigeurs and tirailleurs of the Imperial Guard and in that order. As he was a colonel in the 33rd Regiment which was sent to assist he must be regarded as a reliable source. There were also Husaren involved. To study more regiments is not exactly what I would like to do, sorry. Perhaps you can?Taksen (talk) 07:32, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes

By changing a lot of references and (not encyclopedic) personal views into notes the story became more clear and engaging. Bogdanovich and Naffziger seem to be the only ones who recognised many skirmishes happened along the Losvinka (erroneously called the Losmina), not precisely at Uvarova but along the brook in a 20m deep ravine leading to the main road on the plateau. Nowadays the villages in the Krasninsky area are scarcely populated, were desolated or do not exist anymore. They have less than fifty inhabitants; sometimes just a few families or owners of dachas. It is better to concentrate on the main road, the plateau on both sides and the ravine with the brook. De Beauharnais, Davout and Ney succeeded to pass or to get around the steep slope which was also difficult to cross for the horses and the baggage train. They seem to have used ropes after the horses collapsed. Taksen (talk) 19:07, 3 August 2023 (UTC)Taksen (talk) 07:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Naffziger's not a professional historian. His book is certainly interesting, but not nearly as comprehensive and well-researched as the works of Riehn, Lieven, Cates, and Mikaberidze. What, then, is the point of citing Naffziger?

Also, my original article references the non-stop skirmishing along the highway from Vyazma to Smolensk, and from there, from Smolensk to Krasnoi. Miloradovich's advance guard engaged the French on a daily basis, as did the multitude of Russian partisan bands.

As for DeBeauharnais, Davout, and Ney, the facts are:

1) Miloradovich attacked DeBeauharnais and nearly destroyed his corps before Kutuzov ordered him to fall back. That's why DeBeauharnais was able to escape by making a circuitous march far to the north of the highway.

2) Miloradovich attacked and nearly destroyed Davout's corps before Kutuzov ordered him to stop. That's the reason why Davout escaped.

3) Ney's corps was destroyed by Miloradovich on November 18th. Only 2,000 French troops escaped that engagement, doing so by fleeing through the forests, after which only 800 survivors reunited with Napoleon near Orsha.

Do your revisions clarify these facts?

Kenmore (talk) 16:22, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Chronology of November 17th

@Taksen:, I think the many recent changes to this section have had a very confusing effect on the chronology.

Napoleon's counterattack, or "feint" begins in the early morning of the 17th, and his declaration that "I have played the Emperor long enough! It is time to play general!" clearly belongs with that episode, as confirmed by numerous sources, but you've placed it with his withdrawal from Krasnoi later in the day. The quoted paragraph beginning "The Krasnoy defile was an excellent place to stop ..." is taken from Rouguet's arrival in Krasnoi on the 15th, and has no place among the details of the retreat on the 17th. The quote from Ségur beginning "So the 1st Corps was saved ..." is much more logically placed in the section on Napoleon's retreat, where it was previously found. There are many other examples.

Let me stress that I'm a layman, but it's clear to me that many of these recent edits have only served to make this section confusingly unclear when compared with its previous state. I haven't had time to look at the other sections in any detail. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 15:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Jean-de-Nivelle: I agree with your remarks but 17 November is extremely difficult day to understand, also after two hundred years. The confusion comes partly from my webpage on my ancestor who joined the 33rd. At that time I dumped everything I found. I don't mind making mistakes. I learn, don't worry. Because the postcard from 1910 has a bridge on it, I got confused and moved the quote as no one else mentions a bridge over the Losvinka. This article goes into rather in detail; compared with the one in French and Russian. (The articles in Russian and French are copied from the English version in 2007. Something I found out today by comparing them, with almost the same headings. Though the Russian added their own sources.) As there is no one else who knows the topic as well as User:Kenmore I will ask him. Taksen (talk) 15:32, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

It's interesting that you have ancestor who fought in this battle. Did that person write a journal, or memoir describing their experiences? Several of my ancestors participated in this war too; most likely they were present at Krasnoi.

Kenmore (talk) 20:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Figner

Figner is mentioned six times in: CHAPTER IX. FROM VYAZMA TO KRASNY. I did not add any detail on him yet but he clearly joined in this battle.Taksen (talk) 07:51, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Read carefully, he went to Petersburg. Also: http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/РБС/ВТ/Фигнер,_Александр_Самойлович Cotling (talk) 08:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article does not mention his involvement in the Battle of Krasny, but on the 27th he was in Kamenny which is completely out of direction. There must be a mistake in this text. Figner cannot have gone up and down to StP within a week. On 9 November he was involved in the Battle of Liaskowa. The next year he was involved in the Siege of Danzig (1813).Taksen (talk) 10:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a mistake about 27 November. 27 November means 27 October Old Style, because that's the day the partisan units joined forces and went to Liaskowa (see for example https://www.borodino.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/5_popov.pdf , http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/ВЭ/ВТ/Ляхово). Most likely an editors mistake, don't know about the print version.

And about Krasny not being mentioned - that's the point.

Denis Davidov who was present in Krasny, mentioned him six times. "Your" text is unreliable.

I must be blind, but in which paragraph about Figner and his participation at Krasny, on which page?...

CHAPTER IX. FROM VYAZMA TO KRASNY.

Let's start with the fact that it's not Davydov, but Ilya Radozhitsky's notes - you've got it mixed up. And in this text there is no information about Figner's participation in the battle of Krasny. Only that he went to Petersburg for honors (after Liaskowa) - and as a consequence Timofeev took command of his company. Pages 264-268. Anyway you did a very great job on the article, thanks for that, for caring about "some out there" battle from past centuries.

Thank you. It was a lot of work, combining English, French, Russian, German and Dutch sources, checking articles and translations. It is apparently the only way to get a complete picture. Only recently I found out the possibilities asking ChatJPT to improve my English. It was assisting me with useful improvements/suggestions. I also should mention a Russian historian from Smolensk, Elena Minina who took pictures for me so I got a better impression of the environment.
Fine, good idea using ChatJPT! All the best to Elena.

You are right, I was confused, shortly before I was checking Davidov. This chapter/book is by Radozhitsky whose style is interesting. Anyhow the Siege of Danzig lasted one year. It is not clear to me Figner was there all the year long. He may have gone up and down to StP. Studying him is not on my list.

Look at your link again, read the pages 264 to 268.

It's also said that he joined the army only at the siege of Danzig (http://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/РБС/ВТ/Фигнер,_Александр_Самойлович). There's no trace of his involvement anywhere else !beyond Liaskowa! in 1812. It is stated that he left for St. Petersburg and was replaced by Timofeev (http://adjudant.ru/lib/radozhitskiy09.htm). Cotling (talk) 12:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It is apparently the only way to get a complete picture

But that goal was already accomplished when I wrote the original article many years ago. These latest editorial changes risk bombarding the reader with information overload. That's not good.

FYI: my original article cites Davidov. What's the point in doing that work all over again? It just adds lots of peripheral information to the narrative, as opposed to focusing on essential historical facts.

Also, that sources are written by authors from a variety of language backgrounds doesn't necessarily mean that their info is credible. After all, Russian partisan leaders wrote reports that exaggerate and glorify their exploits. The same is true of memoirs written by French participants in the battle.

Kenmore (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

"happened in the early afternoon of 3/15 November" ?

I am unsure of what this really means to say. Could it be written better? I'm thinking of the time/date thing. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Old/new style I guess. Ymblanter (talk) 20:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It shows the dates in Old and New style, or Julian and Gregorian calendar, very confusing in articles on the history of Russia and quite often leading to mistakes.Taksen (talk) 07:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Forgotten but seem interesting

In 1870 Fyodor Glinka wrote about the war and battle: Letters of a Russian officer about Poland, the Austrian possessions, Prussia and France, with a detailed description of the domestic and foreign war from 1812 to 1814

http://az.lib.ru/g/glinka_f_n/text_0060.shtml

DESCRIPTION OF THE PATRIOTIC WAR OF 1812 BEFORE THE EXPULSION OF THE ENEMY FROM RUSSIA

He mentions Ivan Paskevich who needs to be added as general.

Taksen (talk) 09:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)Taksen (talk) 04:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Dead links

• References with the numbers 79 and 149 do not work, but 110 and 112 do. Could someone delete those links? Besides Buturlin is mentioned five times without a link and three times to page 217. The link to Buturlins book is also mentioned under Sources, which works.
• The dates at Note aa should be changed. Someone changed all the n-dashes into m-dashes but refused to improve this, very strange. I cannot change anything here as I am banned.
• Nobody bothered to add Ivan Paskevich and Fyodor Glinka. The latter is appreciated in Russia as a good poet; his book might be censored. He died near Smolensk and must have known the area well.
• In my opinion Talk pages aren't very use- or helpful, although this article was read by quite a few people yesterday.

Taksen (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Taksen, you said that you massively revised the original article to make it "balanced" and "nuanced." But you never explained why, exactly, you regard the original as unbalanced and lacking nuance. Can you address that question here, on a specific and concrete level?

Kenmore (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Why the sweeping revisions?

The article's been completely rewritten, not necessarily for the better. Who did this and why? Granted, there is a lot of new, valuable information, including superb photos and paintings. But too much now reads like material written by Napoleon's 19th century hagiographers.

One example is the revised section on Ozharovsky's defeat by the Young Guard. My original article indicated that Ozharovsky had only 3,500 troops, as he commanded a so-called "flying column," intended for reconnaissance and little more. That's important data, because without it, the reader might get the mistaken impression that Roguet's victory constituted a major part of the Krasnoi engagement, which it wasn't.

Also, the revisions fail to explain that Kutuzov had no serious intention of launching a big arrow attack on Napoleon. True, he allowed his subordinate generals to plan an ambitious offensive, intended to destroy the remnants of the Grande Armee. But from there, Kutuzov prevented his generals from executing the plan. This is critically important info, as without it, the reader might mistakenly think that Kutuzov tried to attack Napoleon, and was repulsed by the Imperial Guard on November 17th.

Regarding the Guard's famed feint on November 17th, the revisions indicate that this operation forced Kutuzov to retreat, which is factually untrue. The reality is that Kutuzov merely pulled his flanks closer to the center of his position, creating a defensive cordon while bombarding the Guard from afar. Then he just waited for the Guard to retreat. This is important info, as without it, the reader might feed into the myth that the French actually "won" the engagement.

I applaud that other Wikipedians have taken interest in this article. But is it good to place so much emphasis on the older, Francophilic historiography? My original article sought to balance the narrative by sourcing the latest historiography, written by Digby Smith, Alexander Mikaberidze, Richard K. Riehn, Dominic Lieven, and others. I am skeptical that these latest, sweeping revisions are moving the article in the right direction editorially.

Shall we discuss?

Kenmore (talk) 20:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Online wargame - "1812: The Campaign of Napoleon in Russia"

This is an excellent wargame created in 1974, by Simulation Publications Inc. I've been aware of it for decades, and am happy to discover that it's now available to play online, for free. I'm looking for opponents. Anyone interested? You can play either side, French or Russian.

IMO the game's a great way to learn the essentials of the 1812 war. It's available via the Vassal Wargames website, and you'll have to download a module containing the hexagon map, unit markers, game instructions, and so on. Check the following links for more info.

Wikipedia article about the original board game: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/1812:_The_Campaign_of_Napoleon_in_Russia

Direct link to the online game: https://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:1812:_The_Campaign_of_Napoleon_in_Russia

More info, including close up photos of maps, markers, and other game details: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4087/1812-the-campaign-of-napoleon-in-russia

Game instructions manual: https://spigames.net/PDFv2/1812.pdf

Kenmore (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2024 (UTC)