Talk:Atlas (mythology)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Richat structure

The mention that "while "Atlantis" (the Richat Structure in Mauritania) means "island of Atlas"." is opinion not fact. There is no conclusive proof that Atlantis exists, let alone that it is Proterozoic Richat structure dome, so I've removed this. 86.93.208.34 (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Perseus turning Atlas to stone

Resolved

 – Refs added. MajoranaF (talk) 16:56, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

ok, in most of the greek mythology i've read, it says nothing of Perseus turning Atlas to stone with Medusa's head. Could someone please tell me where it says that happened?? marie16

um, in Ovid's Metamorphoses", the supreme authority on mythological change. Erik the Red 2 (talk) 01:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Link to maps

I think there should be a link to article about maps. I remember references to Atlas saying that it was a common misconception that Atlas carried the Earth on his shoulders, and that it was the heavens which he carried, which was what I recall reading myself (and which makes more sense imho). Now this page says it was both. Can someone verify or refute this? -- SvdB 13:12, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)

Atlas Holds up the Sky

Svdb is correct: Atlas was doomed to hold up the sky. But the heavens, even more than the earth, were classically conceived as a sphere or spheres, and in works of art it was common to depict him holding a globe marked with constellations, not continents -- which were mostly unknown to the artists in any case.

There may always have been a degree of ambiguity as to whether Atlas stood somewhere on earth and held up the sky from inside, or whether he somehow stood outside and carried the universe on his back -- or picturing him the second way may just have made for better iconography. But it was the star chart that first started to be called an atlas after him, and later that name was extended to almost any collection of maps.Atlas in the Greek mythology is said 2 hold up the sky(Now Zeus's territory). People have the idea that Atlas holds up the earth from seeing him depicted with a globe on his shoulders without realizing that it was originally the celestial sphere. And eventually that confusion and the extension of the common noun led to him being depicted with the now more familiar terrestrial globe on his shoulders. --Americist 22:19, 2005 Jan 13 (UTC)

what? --161.97.96.12

Well, if you ask most people what Atlas was made to hold up, they will say the earth, as most images show him holding the globe, however, he was really forced to hold up the sky, and classical art showed him holding a sphere of constellations. Eventually people started showing him holding a globe, leading to the misconception. -Unsigned

• • • • • EDIT **************************************************************************

The MISCONCEPTION is still in place; please note that Atlas's head itself was the world on his shoulders. There is a new video that you can search on youtube called "Atlas's mind game", which identifies a 5000 years old statue from Hamangia holding the head in hands as the original Atlas.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.11.219.4 (talk) 06:44, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Etymology of Atlas

The etymology of Atlas is uncertain, contrary to what the article said. An Indo-European etymology that I've seen for Atlas is that it supposedly derives from PIE *tel-, "to lift, support". No etymology has been "canonized" yet, and the etymology is unknown, or at least disputed. Some tried to connect it with some North African words also, but that is considered very unlikely.

I see that linguists seem to be "divided" on whether Atlas derives from PIE *tel (in which case Atlas would literally mean "The Upholder", "The Bearer") or whether it is pre-Indo-European.

The last word for now on the etymology of Atlas is what the American Heritage Dictionary 2000 edition says: that Atlas "perhaps" derives from PIE *tel-, but that this is "unlikely". Alexander 007 02:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are many possible etymologies. I suppose that Telêpylos, capital of Laestrygonians, perhaps, is identified with the pre-Phoenician Carthage. The word "Telêpylos" contains the "indo-european" root "*tel". --IonnKorr 19:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I just removed the following proposed Berber etymology from the end of this section.

In fact, the sun is often called the "eye of the sky" (tit). And since it sets to the west, the Atlantic ocean can be called "the place of concealement of the sun" or Antal n Tit. Greeks could have borrowed this name for the ocean and called it Atlantic, and later used its root ATL to form the name Atlas.

I don't know any Berber, but this is a few too many long stretches in a row for my comfort without more clarity and a source or two. Is the sun often called "eye of the sky" in Berber, for instance? Because one language's idiom doesn't explain another language's metaphor.

I'd actually like to know more about this, especially if something like "antal" is a typical expression for "west" or direction of the sunset in Berber, as it would offer another possible etymology for Andalus. --Americist 19:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we get a reference to the PIE root *tel into the article, now that we have a Notes section (insert in the html between <ref></ref>? --Wetman 03:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as an etymological reference, the derivation of Atlas < *tel stems at least from this…

"*telə-: to lift, support, weigh; with derivatives referring to measured weights and thence to money and payment. Oldest form *telə₂-. [....] 6. Perhaps (but unlikely) zero-grade form *t l ̥ə-. Atlantic, Atlas, from Greek Ατλᾱς (stem Ατλαντ-), name of the Titan supporting the world." - American Heritage Dictionary, citing Julius Pokorny’s Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch

…but I'm not sure what to make of "Perhaps (but unlikely)". A fascinating page discussing Chaldean Astrology (which is essentially an appendix to an essay on Documentary hypothesis) derives the name Atlas from a Chaldean (!) moon god, *Atraš. (The moon, occupying the lowest – or innermost – planetary sphere, logically holds up the rest of the heavens.) But since the essay cites no sources, and its author is identified only as bob x, I've never tried to use what it says to support anything else. --Americist 22:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford Classical Dictionary suggests a derivation from tlaō, "enduring". There really is no widely accepted etymology for Atlas. If, however, the article is going to cover his etymology, it should give a wider range of etymologies than the disputed derivation from *tel. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article Atalanta begins quite sensibly "Atalanta (Greek:Αταλάντη, meaning "balanced")..." How could the root of Atalanta and Atlas not be the same? These more distant etymologies, howeever, never seem to provide a firm enough foundation for any further thought. --Wetman 05:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have seen the suggestion that Atlas derives etymologically from Thalassa, meaning the sea. If so then it is pre-Greek, possibly "Pelasgian" in origin. It would explain the story of Plato that Atlas was a son of Poseidon. John D. Croft (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Greek is more correct to say. We don't know what 'Pelasgian' was. Fkitselis (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not possible to really know, but Atlas sounds pre-Greek. First of all he was a titan, a word reminding of the Hattic word tittah 'great, big'. Then we know of another titan called Talos, who was guarding the coast of Crete. Have a look on Hesychius dictionary and you will discover that τάλα (tala) in Greek means 'great, big'. Last but not least, Hurrian talami means 'big'. To support an IE root, one should explain what the a- (without) does in front of *tel-. Does Atlas mean 'without support'? After saying all these, maybe we should add some citations to the etymology, because right now there are some bold statements being made, without anyone knowing who really expressed them.Fkitselis (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Daughters of Atlas (and Son)

Can anyone find a classical reference to a Maera as daughter of Atlas? --Wetman 03:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I found these…

"There are also tombs [at Tegea, Arkadia] of Tegeates, the son of Lykaon, and of Maira, the wife of Tegeates. They say Maira was a daughter of Atlas, and Homer makes mention of her in the passage where Odysseus tells to Alkinous his journey to Hades, and of those whose ghosts he beheld there." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 8.48.6

"The ruins of a village called Maira, with the grave of Maira … For probably the Tegeans, and not the Mantineans , are right when they say that Maira, the daughter of Atlas, was buried in their land." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 8.12.7

…at the Theoi Project. Pausanias is a bit late (2nd century) and basically wrote down whatever he heard or read as far as mythology is concerned. But then, that's pretty much all mythology is.

There seems to be a healthy ambiguity about Maira. These two passages from Pausanias, and the one he refers to from Homer, indicate a more mortal nature. Pausanias also does not specify a particular Atlas as her father, which may contribute confusion. In another passage he describes her as the subject of a cult focused on moderating the hot influence of Sirius, with which she is apparently associated (as another star in Canis Major) or even identified. But in that passage Pausanias makes no mention of Atlas, nor do other accounts of the same cult. But most of Atlas' daughters were stars, so it wouldn't take much to pull her into the group. --Americist 22:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I plan to add references for the rest of these, and add items to the list soon. --Americist 23:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Examples of the Atlas Motif

Examples of Atlas-like figures keep creeping into the article, but none of them seem to be missing from the much fuller list at Atlas (disambiguation). Most recently, the architectural feature "atlas" popped up in this article's "Etymology" section. Pending some good criteria for determining which and how many examples should be included in this article, and where they should be placed, I've removed the following:

• Because of Atlas' typical pose, Atlantes are the male counterparts of the more familiar female Caryatids. (Both are sculpted columns which support an architrave beam).
• The comic book superhero Captain Marvel was granted the stamina of Atlas as part of his powers.
• The image of Atlas bearing a great burden serves as an important metaphor throughout Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.
• The size-changer of Marvel Comics' "Thunderbolts" is also known as Atlas. He was recently shown on a cover holding up a building, a pose reminiscent of the mythological Atlas.

I think it actually makes sense to include some examples. I just don't have any strong feelings at the moment about how they should be handled — except that the way they were presented seems wrong.
--Americist 17:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of Phoibe/Phoebe

I originally changed "Phoibe" to "Phoebe" because on Wikipedia all but two references were spelled "Phoebe." "Phoibe" appeared to be a typo. Now someone has changed it back without any explanation other than the spelling is "intentional." To avoid a revert war I will leave it that way as long as there can be some explanation with supporting citations for "Phoibe." Educate us. :) Anon Y. Mouse 16:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Both spellings are correct, but Phoibe is perhaps a better representation of Greek Φοιβη. Phoebe is probably the more common spelling, however, and WP guidelines tell us to use the more common form... --Akhilleus (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The relevent guidelines deal specifically with article names — the intent being to help readers find articles by means of more familiar forms. Regardless, the current consensus seems to be that ancient Greek terms should be transcribed using Latin tradition, even when the associated entities are being discussed in primarily ancient Greek-speaking contexts (as opposed to more generally Classical or European contexts). So I've just adjusted the remaining non-conforming spellings to conform. The one exception to perfect conformity with WP:GREEK is Menoetius (Gk Μενοιτιος) which the convention would render as Menoetios. I went with Menoetius to harmonize with the current title of the relevent article, which I assume reflects someone's familiarity at some point. The overall result is that the only piped names in Atlas (mythology) now are those which (like Atlas) have articles titled with disambiguation tags, as in "(mythology)". --Americist 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Reconciliation of Atlas the Titan and Atlas, son of Poseidon

There are at least three instances of Atlas in Greek mythology, each with separate parentages and stories. The best known is Atlas, the Titan son of Iapetus, brother of Prometheus, Epimetheus and Menoetius, who bore the heavens on his shoulders. A second instance is Atlas the King, who was a noted astronomer. And a third instance is Atlas, the eldest of 10 sons of Poseidon, who ruled over Atlantis. It is this latter that I am most interested in because there is the least amount of information about him. The only primary source of information is from Plato's two dialogues, "Timaeus" and the "Critias." Plato seems to have created a new Atlas for his own purposes - which many authors of the time did, as evidenced by so many unreconcilable versions of various lineages. I was wondering if anyone had any secondary sources of this Atlas, King of Atlantis, especially historic secondary sources (i.e. prior to the last few centuries). Detailed accounts of Atlantis by secondary sources would do, if they discuss its leadership. Did this Atlas have consorts and children? Are there stories of wars among the 10 brothers? Does legend tell us what happened to Atlas and his nine brothers when Atlantis was sunk by the gods? Do they still rule today, under the depths of the Atlantic ocean? Any information is welcome. 82.171.128.100 10:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC) Sarah

Merged From Atlas (King)

Resolved

 – Also see this later merger proposal. MajoranaF (talk) 15:53, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I have merged Atlas (King) into this article. The triva section still needs to be removed. Bballoakie 17:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"Named" in Canaanite mythology

Resolved

 – Refs added. MajoranaF (talk) 18:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Since no Canaanite mythological texts survive, how was Atlas "named" as in the following text, which I've moved here for discussion: "Atlas was also named as Grandson of Elion (El Elyon) and Beruth (Beiruit), son of Uranus and Gaea, in Canaanite mythology." (Wetman 19:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC))

This is apparently an allusion to what we have third-hand via the dubious "Sanchuniathon." But, with a few exceptions, all the entities in his account have standard, classical names, so the intrusion of clearly Hebrew "Shemayim" and "Eretz" — in an Anglo-German transcription, no less — is at least misleading. Never mind the uselessness of piping terms with articles to terms without.

I don't think it hurts to include something to the effect that Atlas is the name of a first-generation titan in the fragmentary Phoenician mythology attributed to Sanchuniathon. At the same time, that fact by itself doesn't seem very illuminating, and there doesn't seem to be any more to it. —Americist 02:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This Phoenician mythology and genealogy is included in the article in passing, and could be expanded with further references. MajoranaF (talk) 18:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Atlas and Amphitrite

"But in another version of the myth, she fled from his advances to Atlas,[13] at the farthest ends of the sea; there the dolphin of Poseidon sought her through the islands of the sea, and finding her, spoke persuasively on behalf of Poseidon, if we may believe Hyginus[14] and was rewarded by being placed among the stars as the constellation Delphinus. [15]" Source: Paragraph Four lists as source [13] something called "ad Atlante, in Hyginus' words". I don't know how to research this source. If this is a verifiable source then probably some mention of this event should be made in the Atlas article as well, and link back to Amphitrite. If it's not then the mention should be removed from Amphitrite. Anyone know what this ad Atlante Hyginus reference is and how good of a source it is for things pertaining to Atlas?

[14] says ""...qui pervagatus insulas, aliquando ad virginem pervenit, eique persuasit ut nuberet Neptuno..." Oppian's Halieutica I.383-92 is a parallel passage." and [15] links to Catasterismi, 31; Hyginus, Poetical Astronomy, ii.17, .132. I'm wondering if looking into these latter two references will lead to [13] since they should all be part of the same continuous tale. Tyciol (talk) 13:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

I don't understand how this myth persists that ancient people did not know Earth was a sphere. Eratosthenes of Cyrene is specifically one of the first known men to prove that it was using geometry and a few rational assumptions. To call the understanding that Earth is a sphere a "modern understanding" is just plain ridiculous and ignorant. --68.255.2.73 (talk) 03:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

reference check

Resolved

 – Refs added. "Cannot be reconciled" removed.

In this article The following is stated "this account cannot be reconciled with the far more common stories of Atlas' dealings with Heracles, who was Perseus' great-grandson."

I can find no reference to this Great-grandson portion. Based on family trees I looked at, this is not even remotely close to true. Is this a typo, or am I missing something. Request for Correction, or Clarification.

24.12.50.10 (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)JJ24.12.50.10 (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

who is athena?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.204.17.60 (talk) 17:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Roman equivalent?

Resolved

 – Infobox contains equivalent info. MajoranaF (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Does Atlas have an equivalent character in Roman mythology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.165.19 (talk) 00:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Only in poetry.--Wetman (talk) 10:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Atlas and the moon

Not sure

 – Other sources needed

The article claims that Atlas is paired with Phoebe in governing the Moon and cites several sources. I checked the citations for the Iliad, Hesiod, and Aristophanes, and they contain nothing on the subject. It turns out that the citations are simply lifted from 1.d of Robert Graves' The Greek Myths. They were faulty in that book and faulty here, too. Unless a good source is found, mention of Atlas' alleged regency of the moon should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asiaj (talk • contribs) 12:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Would be good to get another source to verify elements of Graves' Pelasgian creation myth. If not, this may still merit inclusion in passing (as the article currently does) if a good secondary source on Graves account can be found. MajoranaF (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Portal

Disregard

 – Not relevant to this article. MajoranaF (talk) 15:47, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Isn't Atlas also a characters name in Portal 2?--User:SmartyPantsKid 14:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

On the use of Latin in the article

Resolved

 – Added Heracles / Hercules clarification in lede. MajoranaF (talk) 15:40, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I was wondering why when Heracles is first mentioned is it not immediately followed by something like, "(Hercules in Latin)." Everyone knows who Hercules is but I suspect many casual readers wouldn't realize that Heracles is the same person. Is there some bizarre Wikipedia requirement that forbids this? There must be since its inclusion is so obvious I can't understand why it's not there. __209.179.86.123 (talk) 20:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Hesperides as daughters of Atlas

Resolved

 – Sources added. Changed wording to "reputed" daughters. MajoranaF (talk) 15:22, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

"One of the Twelve Labors of the hero Heracles was to fetch some of the golden apples which grow in Hera's garden, tended by Atlas' daughters, the Hesperides and guarded by the dragon Ladon. Heracles went to Atlas and offered to hold up the heavens while Atlas got the apples from his daughters."

The section does not have a source and the article on the Hesperides says they were daughters of Atlas only according to Petrus Apianus.

ICE77 (talk) 01:38, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Atlas of Mauretania with Atlas (mythology)MajoranaF (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

---

I propose that Atlas of Mauretania be merged into Atlas (mythology). I think that the content in the Atlas of Mauretania article can easily be explained in the context of Atlas (mythology), and the Atlas of Mauretania article is of a reasonable size that the merging it will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned.

It seems that these are separate articles because of the misapprehension that Atlas, King of Mauretania, is not Atlas, the Titan. A close reading of sources that reference the "King of Mauretania", in particular Gerardus Mercator's commemoration to the King at the beginning of his famous book of maps (the first to bear the name "Atlas") shows that they are actually talking about the same being. For example, Mercator references greek sources Eusebius and Diodorus to describe Atlas. MajoranaF (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

My first impression on seeing this merger proposal was that they were in fact different mythological personages, and just possibly that's still the case. But there's only one entry for Atlas in the DGRBM, and it mentions the only details that might refer to an earthly king, so maybe there's no clear distinction. That would certainly support the proposed merger. P Aculeius (talk) 01:34, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. Here are the sources, apart from Mercator, who directly reference a "King of Mauretania" of some kind, all of which would indicate that the King is a variant of Atlas the Titan. I can find no reliable source that would indicate that they are distinct.

• "Son of Iapetus and Clymene... In the division of his father's dominions, Mauritanica fell to his share; and he gave his name to the mountain of that country, which still bears it. As he was greatly skilled in astronomy, he became the fist inventor of the sphere". This book also gives an account of a theory advocated by Abbe la Pluche where Atlas became a Mauritanian King due to Egyptian and Phoenician influence "by which the symbol of astronomy...became a Mauritanian king".
• "From this exploit he proceeded to visit Atlas, King of Mauritania, who refused him hospitality, and in revenge Perseus turned him into stone." This book clearly states that the King of Mauritania is the same the Atlas petrified by Perseus.
• "Atlas, I. One of the Titans, son of Japetus and Clymene, one of the Oceanides...He was king of Mauritania" This book also gives an interesting account that the Atlas mountains of the ancient Phoenicians may be different to Atlas mountains of the Greeks and Romans.

Confusion seems to arise from the fact that the Atlas of Eusebius and Diodorus has a different, but similar, genealogy to that provided in other sources, but that is hardly uncommon in mythology.MajoranaF (talk) 13:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Grimal says in his article on the Titan: "Late conjectures regarded Atlas as an astronomer who taught men the laws governing celestial bodies". Based upon Grimal, and the sources for the king given above by MajoranaF, it seems clear that the king was the "same" as the Titan, so a merge would seem to be in order.

By the way, Diodorus was a rationalizer, so it makes sense that by way of "explaining" the myth of Atlas holding up the celestial globe, he would instead make Atlas a mortal astronomer (see Diodorus Siculus, 3.60.2–3 and 4.27.5). Paul August ☎ 16:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay I think we can close this off as seems pretty obvious merge by this point.MajoranaF (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Atlas In Literature

Atlas appears in only one set of literary works as a character, those of Fred Saberhagen. Here, he's depicted as being encased within a mountain with only his head sticking out and is said to look more treelike than human. He's picking up radio signals from all over thr world.Glammazon (talk) 04:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Are you making a suggestion that's relevant to this article? -- Fyrael (talk) 05:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, because there's no mention of Atlas in literature in the actual article.Glammazon (talk) 10:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Celestial heavens?

I am puzzled by the expression "celestial heavens". It strikes me as a tautology, akin to "rural countryside", which I came across in our local newspaper some years ago now. Surely "heavens" is sufficient. Can anyone supply a justification for "celestial heavens"? LynwoodF (talk) 22:00, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has got back to me on this, so I have removed the adjective celestial. LynwoodF (talk) 09:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Correction

The Pseudo-Indoeuropean-Theory is since years refuted. There is evidence, that refutes the Pseudo-pre-greek-hypothesis, too. The helleno-pelasgian, ancient greek language and its dialects.

Dr. Adamantios Samson, Archäologist, Dr. Konstantinos Chatzigiannakis, the Helleno-pelasgian Homoglossy and the Transformations of the ancient greek dialects, The Digamma, Dr. Prof. Xenophon Moussas, Dr. Stratos Theodosiou, Astrophysicist, Dr. Ilias Mariolakos, Geologist, Dr. Angeliki Kombocholi Philologist, Dr. Eleni Koulizaki, Philologist, Dr. S. Papamarinopoulos, Helene Ahrweiler, Byzantinist, UNICEF Botschafterin, B. Metrou, Philologist. Maria Tzane, Archäologist, classical Philologist, Historic, Soziologin Tbq01 (talk) 00:25, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

What's your point? That the Greeks and their language sprang from the brow of Zeus with no predecessors?

Now I am curious about what geology and astrophysics have to say on this question; perhaps that there were no pre-Greeks because the Aegean lands were created along with the Greeks? —Tamfang (talk) 02:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)