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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Work in Progress

I am still working on this article, I'm making a major expansion and there are a couple more sections that I'm going to add, most importantly "Career". So come and check it out later. Orionist 01:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You're doing a great job on this article, good luck with the rest of it. :) ↔ ANAS - Talk 11:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that her birth is listed as 1917 at the top of the page and 1918 in the side detail box. Malleabis (talk) 16:37, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for noting that! The wrong date is also taken from the TV series. I've also noticed many new edits to this article, they need alot of cleanup and reorganizing to incorporate them in the article. Time for full overhaul! I just hope my free time will suffice. Orionist (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Fouad

Nice article, just a minor point; 'Her brother Fouad was the least talented in the family.' Doesn't seem like a very nice, or encyclopedic, thing to say about someone, -by whose, and what, measure was he least talented? Seems sort of too subjective a comment to be included as a fact. I mean it could be rephrased somehow to say that he was not involved with the arts as his siblings were or something I suppose, and that might sound better. Number36 00:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

"Asmahan" TV series

The Arabic TV series "Asmahan" has kicked off on several TV stations with the beginning of Ramadan. I noticed that some edits based on the series has started to appear. The series is not a documentary, and it is very loosely based on Asmahan's life. And the writer has resorted to his imagination to cover up the scarcity of details especially about her early life. The writer is even confused as to which World War comes first (there's a mention of French resistance against the Nazis while events are still going in the early 1920s).

All I want to say is that TV series are not reliable sources. So please, please verify your info before editing! Orionist (talk) 09:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate

French article says she's born in 1918 on a greek boat. es:Asmahan says 1918 too. It seems that the arabic version gives a date in 1917. There should be citations to clarify that and make it verifiable. Calimo (talk) 16:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

The 1917 birth date is probably cited from the Arabic TV series. Orionist (talk) 17:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

She was born on a Greek ship headed towards Lebanon, her mother was LebaneseLebanese bebe (talk) 13:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian

Farid and Asmahan have Syrian and Lebanese bloodlines but it is unclear if they ever carried the nationality/citizenship of either country. Nationality, however, is not determined solely through bloodlines, but also by country of citizenship. Farid and Asmahan moved to Egypt as little children with no documents with their Lebanese mother and older brother. They applied for and were granted Egyptian citizenship and therefore it is ENTIRELY ACCURATE to state that they were Egyptian citizens of Syrian-Lebanese origin. (If Obama were Kenyan, he would not be president of the USA!)

Farid and Asmahan grew up and lived virtually their whole lives in Egypt and are buried in Egypt. They began their professional careers as teenagers in Egypt, and their careers were played out in Egypt. Farid's "romances" were in Egypt and Asmahan was married to Egyptians. In his well-known rivalry with Abdel-Halim Hafez, Farid was extremely sensitive to any comments casting doubt on his "Egyptianhood" and loyalty to Egypt (please see the many video clips to this effect on youtube).

We should therefore respect Farid and Asmahan's choice of nationhood and pay homage to the country that granted them asylum from childhood, granted them its nationality, nurtured their huge talents and careers and contains their remains. To do otherwise is inaccurate and ungrateful. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 00:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC))


Of course, Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian. Having Syrian or Lebanese blood does not mean much at all. They lived all their lives in Egypt and became 100% integrated into Egyptian society. All Egyptians considered them and their whole family living in Egypt to be native Egyptians, one of our own. Farid and Asmahan sang their beautiful songs in Egyptian Arabic, and their audience was mainly the Egyptian public and then the rest of the Arab population. Plus, they were Egyptian citizens. What else did they need to do to be considered full-fledged Egyptians? (173.45.218.37 (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC))

Actually they did not live all their lives in Egypt non of them was born in Egypt, Farid was born in Syria and they both lived in Syria for several years. And also you need to provide documented evidence and sources for what you have written here.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Asmahan and Farid only lived outside of Egypt in their early childhood. Asmahan was married to her cousin in Syria for only a couple of years, and once her marriage ended, she returned to Egypt and lived there until her death. Farid never lived in Syria since his childhood, and, as the first user says, he wanted to be referred to as an Egyptian. (173.45.218.37 (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC))


Sounds like the troll 98.194.124.102 is using a proxy: 173.45.218.37 trying to spread his lies and falsification of history. There is a clear pattern. Admins should take immediate action against him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


I will not stoop down to the tactics of Miss Deliciousness (since she implies that she's not anonymous, then that's probably her real name). Miss Deliciousness does not seem to realize that interjecting her blurbs between already posted contributions detroys the chronology of the thread and just lacks courtesy!
In any case, please see the official STATE INFORMATION SERVICE website of the GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT. The Egyptian Government lists Farid Al-Atrash as one of the country's prominent EGYPTIAN FIGURES (see: http://www.sis.gov.eg/VR/figures/english/html/Farid.htm). The website states that Farid left Syria with his mother (and as it is well known, also with his siblings Fouad and Asmahan) "at a small age". The Wikipedia Article itself states that Farid and Asmahan immigrated to Egypt at ages 8 and 5, respectively, and were naturalized as Egyptian citizens. They lived for the rest of thier lives in Egypt (except for Asmahan who was briefly married in Syria before returning home to Egypt) and all are buried in Egypt. Virtually ALL of their musical work was created in Egypt and in the Egyptian dialect.
Since the Governemnt of Egypt declares Farid (as it did also his mother and siblings) as an Egyptian Figure, on par with Egyptian Giants Mohamed Abdel-Wahab and Umm Kolthoum, then my statement in the article that Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin is absolutely and entirely accurate.


Please see also the abstract of an academic research paper from Cleveland State University and University of California, Berkeley
"Building a Man on Stage - Masculinity, Romance, and Performance according to Farid al-Atrash
by Sherifa Zuhur (see: http://jmm.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/275)
"This article explores the life and career of male singing star, instrumental talent, and Composer Farid al-Atrash, who created a prototype of the romantic male musical star from the 1930s until his death in 1974. An immigrant to Egypt and a member of a distinctive religious sect, the Druze, he arose from poverty and the invisibility of the previous generation of musicians thanks to his talent, ambition, and investment in his own film productions. A lifelong bachelor, he constructed a popular image with references to the authentic Arab Islamic poetic/historical past and an idealized version of modernity. Tales of his love affairs enhanced his popularity during his lifetime and were seemingly merged with the lyrics of his love songs. From Arabic sources, the author attempts to uncover the psychological rationale of a man whose life goals were shaped by his mother, who was overshadowed by his sister, and who consciously elevated music making to a professionalized art form.
"Key Words: masculinity • Arabic music • Druze • popular performance • Islamic culture • Farid al-Atrash"


Even Syrian website "Damascus Online" (see: http://www.damascus-online.com/Music/farid_alatrash.htm) states that Farid and Asmahan moved to Egypt in their childhood and makes no mention that Farid ever returned to, let alone lived in, Syria afterward.


Finally, Graeme, please allow me to quote you personally. You stated: "I must agree that it makes more sense to call Farid al-Atrash Egyptian!" (see: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:98.194.124.102).


Therefore, my statement in the article that Farid and Asmahan were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin is absolutely and entirely accurate. Thank you. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 12:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC))

Farid and Asmahan were Syrians

Farids and Asmahans father was Syrian, in the Arab world you follow the father line. The Atrash family are Syrians. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Atrash Farid was born in Syria and Asmahan was born on a boat to Beirut. Farid died in Beirut.

They later moved to Egypt, they was not born in Egypt. They're blood was Syrian and Lebanese. To call them Egyptians is not acceptable.

Asmahan lived in Syria for several years as an adult.

This is form the article: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan came back to the French Mandate of Syria (Syria was under the rule of Vichy France at that time). She was on a secret mission to convince her people in Jabal el-Druze to allow the British and Free French forces to enter Syria through their territory without a fight. In this way, she filled a similar role to that of Edith Piaf in France. The British and Free French promised the independence of Syria in return, and the Druze agreed. After the Allies secured Syria during the Syria-Lebanon Campaign, General Charles de Gaulle visited Sweida (the capital of Jabal el-Druze) where he met Asmahan, his successful messenger."

She would not have done this if she was not a Syrian.

and: "But it wasn't long before her cousin Prince Hassan al-Atrash came to Cairo and asked for her hand in marriage, so she returned to Syria where the marriage was celebrated in 1933, and gave birth to a daughter, Camellia. She lived in Sweida, her home town, where people dubbed her "The Princess of the Mountain" (of Jabal el Druze mountain). Her marriage ended in divorce four years later. After that she returned to Cairo and resumed her singing career, where she married the director Ahmed Baderkhan, but they were soon divorced. In 1941 she went back to Syria and re-married her cousin Hassan for a short time." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you are blinded by nationalistic pride and overlooking the facts. No one is disagreeing that Farid and Asmahan hailed from Syria and Lebanon or that Asmahan lived in Syria as an adult for a couple of years when she got married to her cousin. However, they EMIGRATED to Egypt as children and became EGYPTIAN CITIZENS. That alone makes them EGYPTIAN. When you deny this fact, you are distorting the truth. Almost their entire musical repertoires were in Egyptian Arabic.
In addition to her Syrian cousin, Asmahan was married to two different Egyptians and lived the mojority of not only her childhood and teenage years when she started her career, but also her adult life when her career skyrocketed IN EGYPT, the country whose passport she carried. When her marriage to her Syrian cousin failed, Asmahan went HOME to Egypt. She did not remain in Syria or try to live there. Farid lived virtually his entire life in Egypt and was offended when people reminded him of his non-Egyptian birth.
People are not doomed for life to a certain nationality. People do EMIGRATE and become nationals of other countries. Thank GOD that nationality is something that people CAN CHOOSE TO CHANGE.
Asmahan and Farid chose Egypt as their homeland and to be buried in Egypt. Even though he died in Lebanon, it was Farid's WILL to be buried in Egypt and his remain were respectfully flown to Egypt for burial at home. You are making a big mistake by dishonoring the wills and choices of people after they have died.
PS: I think you should save your time and effort to correcting Wiki pages where your efforts are really needed, e.g., Golan Heights. I have tried to claim the Golan Heights to Syria where it righfully belongs, but have been unsuccessful as the Israelis are all over those pages. Please direct your efforts there and claim back our Arab land. Thanks. (98.194.124.102 (talk) 20:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

"Egyptian" is a joke!

Farid was born in Syria to Syrian parents and later moved to Egypt. Asmahan is his sister. How can the articles call them Egyptians of Syrian origin? This is offensive and a lie. They was naturalized citizens in Egypt. they are both Syrians. The Atrash family is Syrian, there is absolutely nothing Egyptian about it: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Al-Atrash--85.229.133.89 (talk) 07:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

To Admin

{{editprotected}} You should revert the page to my last edit.

The reason is that the article said for several years she was Syrian who lived in Egypt. (She was not born there and both here parents are not Egyptians) This Egyptian 98.194.124.102 showed up recently and starting falsifying history. I changed it to Arab, and still he continued. Please compare my last edit to his and you clearly see that he is trying to erase everything Syrian in the article and ad Egyptian propaganda. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Not done for now: Sorry, time to discuss this now and gain consensus. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I will add that both of the editors involved in this were lucky to escape a block for their actions here. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
kabsa (98.194.124.102 (talk) 12:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC))

Dispute, 3O given

Dispute between me and 98.195.180.144/registered his name to Arab Cowboy

This is the problem: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=298329690&oldid=298328857 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a heads-up: if you want a 3O on this page, there needs to be some discussion first. Can both of you summarize the dispute you're having and why you feel it should be one way or the other? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes I want Third opinion, This is the way it should be:

1"was a famous Syrian singer." Reason why: http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Quote: "She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian", Page 3)(Quote: "Her Syrian homeland" Page 19)(Asmahan's Secrets)
2"Asmahan's father is Fahd al-Atrash, a Syrian Druz." Reason why: http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria (Images of enchantment)(read first page, her father druze from Suwayda)
3"where they were naturalized as Egyptian citizens later on." reason why: http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Asmahan's Secrets,page 98) "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on"
4 "so she returned to Syria where the marriage was celebrated in 1933, and gave birth to a daughter, Camellia. She lived in Sweida, her home town, where people dubbed her "The Princess of the Mountain" (of Jabal el Druze mountain)." Reason why: http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Quote: "Asmahan was from Suwayda")(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, Page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Quote: "Journey to Asmahans territory" and after that "Jabal Druze" in southern Syria) ((Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhu,Page 4) It was her hometown, it was were she lived the first years of her life, Arab Cowboy/98 deleted this, erasing everything Syrian.
5 "And they even accused the prominent singer Oum Kulthoum of organizing her assassination to eliminate competition." Reason why: http://books.google.com/books?id=pgoFDZeHhF4C&pg=PA109&dq=asmahan (Let jasmine rain down - page 110) http://books.google.com/books?id=gyiTOcnb2yYC&pg=PA328&dq=asmahan+born&lr= (World Music by Simon Broughton, Mark Ellingham, Richard Trillo, Orla Duane, Vanessa Dowell, Page 328)
6 "She was the sister of Farid al-Atrash, a famous singer in his own right, and a member of the famous Syrian Druze family of al-Atrash, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." Reason why: http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm and http://books.google.com/books?id=Ej8ZMk1822sC&pg=PA72&dq=sultan+al+atrash (The Great Syrian Revolt) and http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+syria (Her father- al Atrash clan)
7 "Asmahan started her career in Syria and Lebanon, then traveled to Cairo, Egypt" reason why: This was how it was form the beginning and 98. changed it without source.

The article was like this for a long time until recently when 98.195.180.144/registered his name to Arab Cowboy, changed a lot of information without sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll wait for the IP to state their side of the dispute, but as it stands, I can't see a valid reason for removing what appears to be well sourced content aside from what may be a personal dislike of the content presented. If there are differing reliable sources that state the exact opposite of what is currently sourced, then those need to be presented so a consensus about the subject's citizenship can be made. Pinkadelica ♣ 00:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. The IP is removing text that has been decently well sourced and replacing it with their own research. Unless they can get some real sources to back up their claims, they shouldn't be included. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 21:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello Annyong. Are you an admin? If you do not mind, with all due respect, I would like Graeme Bartlett to continue to mediate this case. I did not choose Graeme, but Graeme has already been involved with the case for more than 2 weeks, and SD should not be choosing you. I do not know what history there could be between you two. I will get to this matter and provide a rebutttal by the end of the weekend. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm not an admin. But then, you didn't request an admin opinion - you went for a third opinion. I promise you that I'm entirely neutral, and that I don't know Supreme at all. And as a side note, Graeme hasn't been all that involved; you asked for his help and he locked the page and told you to discuss. And that was three days ago, not two weeks. So you're more than welcome to ask him if he wants to mediate, but I'm still allowed to give my opinion on the matter. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, thank you for your reply. Are you Syrian or from the Middle East? Graeme Bartlett has been involved with this matter for at least a month (26 May 2009), when SD engaged him, please see: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Graeme_Bartlett/archive_6#Asmahan.2C_Farid_al_Atrash_and_Golan. Graeme was involved here again (1 June 2009) at the request of another user when SD contacted that user for "help", http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Graeme_Bartlett/archive_6#More_edit_warring_breaking_out. SD has begun seeking another Admin when Graeme's opinion was leaning toward calling Asmahan and brother Farid al-Atrash Egyptian, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:98.194.124.102#Asmahan_and_Farid_al-Atrash (1 June 2009). It is my understanding that Graeme is an Admin, but I may be wrong. I was seeking 3rd-party ruling, not opinion, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests/Archive_53#Third-Party_Ruling_Requested. Please note that both Asmahan and Farid's articles stated that they were naturalized Egyptians before I ever touched the articles. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
No, I'm neither Syrian nor from the Middle East. I'm your average white American. Graeme is an admin, yes, but dispute resolution is definitely not limited to admins. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 00:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, you're welcome to give your opinion on this matter. The reason I asked is that Arabs, and SD is an extreme example, tend to define a person's identity using blood heritage only and completely ignore other factors, such as immigration to, association with, or adoption of another country. which is a very narrow view of identity, in my opinion. This is the entire issue in this dispute. Simply stated, Asmahan and Farid Al-Atrash (siblings) were born to Syrian-Lebanese parents and immigrated to Egypt at ages 5 and 8, respectively. Asmahan died and was buried in Egypt and Farid's body was flown for burial in Egypt according to his will. Calling them Syrian is analogous to calling Obama Kenyan. I called them Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin. What would you call them? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see the following: http://books.google.com/books?id=gyiTOcnb2yYC&pg=PA330&dq=asmahan+egyptian&lr=. This book, World Music, by Simon Broughton, Mark Ellingham, Richard Trillo, Orla Duane, Vanessa Dowell, page 330, states that although Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash are claimed by both the Syrian and the Lebanese, they are Egyptian by adoption. This is exactly what I had stated, that they were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin! The book, Asmahan's Sectrets, by Sherifa Zuhur, which SD uses to show that Asmahan had not applied for Egyptian citizenship, includes an entire section entitled "Syrian or Egyptian?" to which this specific question is posed, and no answer or conclusion is made in the book. Sherifa actually states: "Unlike some other Syrians, 'Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan herself". This word, apparently, confirms that Sherifa Zuhur did not know or have proof either way. And even if Sherifa Zuhur's statements were accurate (I do not have much confidence) and Asmahan had not applied for citizenship at a certain point in time, this does not mean that Asmahan did not apply for and receive Egyptian citizenship afterward, as the Wikipedia article had stated (was naturalized). Sherifa actually confirms that Egypt was Asmahan's country by adoption, in agreement with the World Music book earlier quoted in this paragraph. She states in reference to Asmahan: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt".

All of SD's links above only show that Amahan (and Farid) were of Syrian (and Lebanese) origin, which no one is disputing. But the fact that they immigrated to Egypt in their childhood is also indisputable, http://www.asmahan.com/profile/index.php. They were carrying no documents when they arrived in Egypt and they assumed a different family name, Kusa, http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/000/070/079/al-jadid/aljadid-farid01.html. Asmahan was 5 and Farid was 8 years old. There is no evidence that they ever possessed Syrian or Lebanese citizenships (Asmahan was born at sea and Farid was born at the Lebanese-Syrian border, http://books.google.com/books?id=gyiTOcnb2yYC&pg=PA330&dq=asmahan+egyptian&lr=. The entire bodies of work of both artist, Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash, were made in Egypt (http://www.arabia.pl/english/content/view/40/16/) and virtually all was in the Egyptian Arabic dialect, http://books.google.com/books?id=owhg2R8Ndy8C&pg=PA240&dq=farid+druze+egyptian&lr= page 240. How could Asmahan have started her career in Lebanon, as SD alleges, before the age of 5 when she arrived as an immigrant in Egypt? They lived in Egypt for their entire lives (except for a couple of years in the case of Asmahan when she was briefly married to her cousin) and were buried in Egypt. Do you need further evidence? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

So okay, let's pick this apart a little. First, asmahan.com is a self-published fansite that is inherently unverifiable, so we can't use it as a source here. If it were published by Asmahan we could, but it isn't. Now, most of what you wrote about is your own speculation. You even wrote "I do not have much confidence", and most of what you wrote is your thoughts on the subject, which is original research, and therefore cannot be used. Similarly, you are the one drawing the conclusion that because everything they did was in Egypt, that she should be labeled as Egyptian. But it doesn't work that way. The fact is that we have a source - the Sherifa book - that says "She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian." If we had a source that says she was a naturalized Egyptian citizen, then there could be some arguments made. But I think in this case, we really need to go by the sources. The "World Music" book says that she was an Egyptian "by adoption," but that doesn't make her a citizen.
My main concern with your edits, such as this one, is that you're just removing all references - which is largely unacceptable - and that you're adding "Egyptian" pretty much everywhere you can. Having said that, I think that there is some space here to demonstrate that she was largely active in Egypt. I wouldn't be opposed to the addition of something like "In World Music: The Rough Guide, David Lodge and Bill Badley describe Asmahan as having been 'Egyptian by adoption.'" Assuming that the book and/or its authors are notable enough, of course. And I believe you were right in removing the line "And they even accused the prominent singer Oum Kulthoum of organizing her assassination to eliminate competition," which is worded rather poorly. The source is fine (which you removed, btw) but it should be worded better.
So those are my thoughts on the subject. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll just reiterate what I said above in that there seems to be a personal issue with the content presented. I'm still assuming good faith, but unless the offended parties start showing some reliable sources to support their proposed changes, I think a cleaned up version of what I presume Supreme Deliciousness wrote and sourced is what should be in the article. Pinkadelica♣ 03:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

SD's Misquotation of the Source and HelloAnnyong's Complicity

  • The edit that you refer to here is actually only a revert of SD's edit in which he removed the word Egyptian from everywhere and changed phrases like "immigrated to Egypt" to "moved to Egypt", etc. I only reverted his edit.
  • I stated that I did not have much confidence in the accuracy of Sherifa Zuhur's book, which SD used as a source, because of this, and not in my own thoughts. However, I'll leave that aside for now.
  • SD is misquoting Sherifa Zuhur. SD's quotation is misleading or is in error. Sherifa Zuhur's statement, "She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian." in the book was in reference to another singer, Fayza Ahmed, NOT Asmahan. As I stated earlier, in Sherifa Zuhur's book, there's an entire section entitled "Syrian or Egyptian?" to which no answer is given. So, how could she have made such a definite statement?
  • A clear-cut statement that Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's migrant family to Egypt were granted Egyptian citizenship "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....", and can be found in this article dated 23 May 2008, by Abdel Fadil Taha in Al-Quds Al-Arabi, which is a very well respected Arabic newspaper. First sentence of last paragraph.
  • The asmahan,com website was used only to show that Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's family immigrated to Egypt. There is no disputing to this fact. You can find evidence here: (1), and (2).
  • Following their immigration to Egypt in childhood, Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash lived for the rest of their lives in Egypt (except for Asmahan's brief marriage in Syria) and wished to be buried there. Sherifa Zuhur states, on page 165, quoting the Egyptian Gazette newspaper, "Asmahan wished to be buried in Egypt". Farid died while on a visit to Lebanon and his body was flown back to Egypt for burial. Sami Asmar states here that Farid's older brother, "Fou'ad stressed Farid's wish to be buried in Cairo". See also here too.
  • The New York Times refers to Farid al-Atrash as "of Egypt", here.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


Arab Cowboy wrote: "The edit that you refer to here is actually only a revert of SD's edit in which he removed the word Egyptian from everywhere and changed phrases like "immigrated to Egypt" to "moved to Egypt", etc. I only reverted his edit." This is a complete false and lie allegation. He has taken what he has done to the article and accused me of it. Arab Cowboy deleted several Syrian areas and added "Egyptian" all over the article, what I did was to revert it to how it was from beginning. He is accusing me of what he has done. The evidence can bee seen here: compare the edit from February to Arab cowboys/98 latest: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=298437735&oldid=272745561 Notice the resistance against the french mandate of Syria was deleted and the adding of "Egyptian" on several places, removal of "home town" referring to her home town in Syria.

The Fayza Ahmed quote was wrong , but Asmhahan is Syrian can also been seen on several other places. This is from Asmahans secrets: http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Quote: "Her Syrian homeland" Page 19)(Asmahan's Secrets) --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Not true, I never touched the article in February (to my recollection), and that edit only shows where I distinguished her Egyptian husbands and composers from the non-Egyptian ones, and I fixed language and grammar. I also removed reference to Asmahan having a professional career before migration to Egypt since she was only 5 years old. SD will need a source to show that she had a career before 5 years old.
  • So, Sherifa Zuhur never stated about Asmahan that "She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian". Since SD uses the word "lies", he better see where the true lies are.
  • Also not true, no one is disputing that Asmahan's original homeland was in Lebanon and Syria due to bloodline (although technically she was born at sea; she was only half Syrian by blood and to call her Syrian is exactly the same as calling Obama Kenyan). Being half-Syrian by blood does not mean that she (a) possessed Syrian citizenship, (b) did not immigrate to Egypt in childhood and become an Egyptian citizen, and (c) that she chose Egypt as her adopted country.
  • --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


The comparisment was from how the article was from the beginning in February compared to now when you removed all Syrian things and added "Egyptian" on several places. You say "no one is disputing that Asmahan's original homeland is in Lebanon and Syria" Then why did you remove "returned to her home town" from the article?
You can not compare Asmahan with Obama, Obama is half American by blood, Asmahan is 100% non-Egyptian by blood. Asmahan was born on a ship going to the French Mandate of Syria (Greater lebanon) Obama was born in America. Asmahan had Syrian citizenship, Obama didn't have Kenyan. Its completely different. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello there, I see that AC has requested my participation. However I would rather let HelloAnnyong continue. I have just about no experience in resolving this sort of this difference of opinion, but what I can do is protect or unprotect the pages if a consensus is reached. I will not be online very much over the next week. It is also quite likely that I am not actually neutral. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Graeme Bartlett, your assistance is not needed, I have requested editor assistance. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


  • SD apparently does not give any importance to telling the truth. I did not "removed all Syrian things and added "Egyptian" on several places". I only changed her from Syrian to "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin", and the order of her music to place Egyptian before Syrian. Whoever had placed Syrian before Egyptian is obviously misleading because Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash hardly ever sang in Syrian, page 240.
  • I used the word "original" homeland, i.e., before immigration to Egypt. Asmahan's adopted homeland was Egypt. When her marriage to her cousin failed, she did not remain in Syria, but returned home to Egypt immediately.
  • Asmahan was actually born at open sea on a ship heading from Greece to Beirut, Lebanon, not Syria.
  • As far as the Obama analogy is concerned, SD is proving my point that his only criterion to identity is bloodline, which is very delinquent.
  • Graeme, your contribution is invited and always welcome. Why would your opinion not be neutral? If you have an opinion one way or the other, we'll be glad to hear it.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


Indeed he removed all thing Syrian abut the article and added "Egyptian" the evidence is here: everyone can compare the original article with Arab Cowboys/98s edit: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=298437735&oldid=272745561

Resistance during the French mandate of Syria was removed, her Syrian home town was removed, that she was "later on" granted egyptian citizenship, and not directly was removed. And many more things. All of these things were backed up with documented sources, yet still removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Nonesense. The fact remains that Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash did become Egyptian citizens, and SD's basis for otherwise was "an error" at best. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Compromise Solution Proposed by HelloAnnyong

Alright, look. This back and forth arguing is getting us nowhere. You both just keep attacking each other and saying "the other one doesn't believe in the truth." Here's what I've found:

  • Arab Cowboy is right about the "She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian" line. Per this excerpt of the book:

    We went to hear Fayza Ahmad sing in a nightclub out on the Pyramids Road. She was a star who had been eclipsed by Umm Kulthum's fame, but who had excellent technique and exciting songs. She was not an Egyptian, but a Syrian, as was Najat al-Saghira.

    So that right there can't be used for Asmahan.
  • That campus-watch.org link is not a reliable source; it's a reproduction of a blog post, which is inherently unreliable.
  • As to that article, I guess it does say that she had Egyptian nationality.

Thus, I just came up with a solution. What if the text reads as follows: "Asmahan was a famous singer and actor. She was the sister of..." That way, we don't call her one thing or the other. It's just neutral, and we let the text about where she was born and where she lived say the rest. We don't draw any explicit conclusions, and we let people decide for themselves. We could even have a part somewhere in there that says "She was of Syrian-Lebanese origin(ref), and had Egyptian nationality(ref)." Would that be an amicable solution? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:38, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, thank you for your reply. I guess you are saying exactly what it says now, but later in the article. I do not see the point of that. Why not keep it the way it is? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Just as a side note, and only to show that Sherifa Zuhur was Syrian leaning, and that Arabs use only "tribal" bloodline to determine identity, Najat al-Saghira was an Egyptian citizen, born in Egypt to parents who were both Egyptian citizens. Her paternal grandfather only was a Syrian who had immigrated to Egypt in the 19th century. I guess he became Egyptian because his son, Najat's father, was a citizen. I have documentation for that. Najat never held Syrian citizenship, so for Sherifa Zuhur to call her "Syrian", shows her tribal mentality and one reason that I said that I did not have much confidence in the accuracy of her statements. I do not know a lot about Fayza Ahmed; I was not a fan. She was Syrian or Lebanese born, but I suspect that she became Egyptian too because she was married to an Egyptian, composer Mohamed Sultan, and her two sons are known to be Egyptian. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


HelloAnnyong, I said above I was wrong about that Fayza Ahmad quote, but it doesn't change the fact that She was Syrian, of course she had Syrian citizenship, her father was Syrian, she was born heading to the French mandate of Syria. She lived the first several years of her lives in Syria. Do you really think she live stateless several years of here life before she moved to Egypt? She lived the first years of her lives in Syria, and Arab Cowboy removed that she had returned to her home village when she returned to Sweida (atrash druze region in Syira), he removed that the atrash family led the resistance during the Syrian revolution, he removed her father being a Syrian Druze, he removed that Asmahan was naturalized in Egypt later on, and not directly. These facts are documented with sources above. The majority of these facts was in the article from the beginning and recently deleted by him. Arab Cowboy has erased everything Syrian in the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
SD, please define "later on". Was it 45 minutes later, or 6 days, 2.5 months, or 17 years later? It was an unscientific term and did not belong in an encyclopedia, so I removed it. I also removed meaningless, yellow journalism allegations such as Umm Kalthoum's involvement in the murder of Asmahan as well as Asmahan's mother fleeing Syria because she had "slept with another man"! How does this tabloid material belong in an encyclopedia? And, no, I did not remove the statement that her father led resistance against occupation. Check again! I only moved it from the first paragraph to the "Life" section, where it better fits. The article is about Asmahan, not her father's military efforts. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Its clearly documented: http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Asmahan's Secrets,page 98) "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" ...meaning, "where they were naturalized as Egyptian citizens later on." was correct, just like it was from the beginning before you changed it. And indeed you removed the section about the atrash family involved in the Syrian revolution, im looking at the life section and nothing is there, --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
"Later on" is awkward, and if we can get something better, then it should be included obviously. Failing that, though, I think I'd rather see text like "they were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens." The stuff about her family is harder, but text like "Her Druze princely family fought the French Colonial armies" (which Arab Cowboy added in this edit) is fairly awkward, and definitely needs sourcing. The rest of the stuff about her being an Atrash is pretty considerable, I think, and should be included; the text may need to be toned down to be more neutral. As to the stuff about her assassination, I tend to agree with Arab. Unless we can find fully qualified sources that show that the conspiracy theory is not just fringe, it really shouldn't be included. Wordage such as "And they even accused the prominent singer" is really not a great choice for Wikipedia. In general, I think the next needs a heavy scrubbing. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Arab Cowboy, I proposed that change to the lede of the article since that's where the problem lies. You two are having a dispute about what should be written there, and I came up with a wholly neutral solution. Do I take it that neither of you like my solution? Neither of you have come up with a better way of resolving the dispute than "mine is right, his is wrong", so.. I don't really see a better solution. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong, I can accept your solution, but its not only that, there are several more issues I mentioned. Look above. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright, great. I've responded to your issues above. Arab Cowboy, are you willing to accept my solution? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


Mentioning of her family

HelloAnnyong, how about the fact that he removed "home town" and "returned" when she returned to her hometown Sweida in Syria were she had grown up?

This was what I had written "and a member of the famous Syrian Druze family of al-Atrash, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.[3][4]" Is this ok? source: Her father al-Atrash clan: first page: http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+father

Syrian revolution: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Syrian_Revolution

This is written by Joshua.M.Landis who is a proffesor at the University of oklahoma: http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm

Sultan Atrash was the leader: "Sultan Pasha al-Atrash: (1891-1982) Born in al-Qurayya village near Swaida. He partcipated in battles against the Ottoman Turks during the Arab Revolt. He raised the Arab flag over Damascus upon its conquest by Emir Faysal's troops on September 29, 1918. He led the Syrian Revolt against the French in 1925. After several early victories, the Revolt was suppressed in 1927 by the French mandatory troops, causing Sultan Pasha to flee Syria for exile, first in Transjordan (now Jordan) and then in the Hijaz in Saudi Arabia. He returned to Syria on being pardoned by the French in May 1937. He died in 1982."

I can find more sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't really think we need all of that information about the Atrash family; there's a separate article for them, so we can link to it and put your information over there. The information about her father can go in his own article if he's that notable on his own. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 05:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Helloyang, to long? its only one sentence: ""and a member of the famous Syrian Druze family of al-Atrash, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.[3][4]""--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Eh, I guess it's okay then. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


Compromise Solution Proposed by Arab Cowboy

Annyong:
  • Asmahan's nationality and the importance of her work and life need to be in the first paragraph, and nothing else. You have essentially proposed moving the same wording that there is now, "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin" to a later section. I do not see a valid reason for that. We've spent the last 24 hours proving the accuracy of this statement. However, I will make a more generous offer to SD. We can instead say, in the first paragraph, that Asmahan was Syrian-Egyptian, given her brief marriage to Prince Hassan al-Atrash, who helped her regain her Syrian citizenship that her migrant family had lost. We can then mention her Lebanese mother in the Family section. Please note that this does not apply to Farid al-Atrash. Farid did not live in Syria after his family's immigration to Egypt in his childhood, where he lived for the remaining 50+ years of his life, and he is not known to have regained Syrian citizenship.
  • I agree to your proposed wording, ""they were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens."
  • I do not agree to stating that she "returned" to her "hometown" in Syria, because, as we have established, Asmahan's chosen hometown and adopted country was Egypt, to which she immediately returned when her marriage failed and before she was even officially divorced, and where she insisted to be buried.
  • I certainly agree to the mention of her belonging to al-Atrash family, in the Family section. However, this article is not a place to tell the story of that family. A link can be made to this page which, in turn, contains links to pages of other Atrashes' articles, and where SD innacurately calls Asmahan and Farid Syrian. This information needs to be corrected too.
  • SD needs to provide a source to support the statement that she had had a career in Lebanon before she immigrated to Egypt at the age of 5.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 02:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Both Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash were always Syrian citizens. They didn't "regain" their citizenship because they never lost it. This is not your article, you do not own it, Sweida was where she live the first years of her life, therefore when she went there the wording "returned" and "hometown" is accurate: (Quote: "Asmahan was from Suwayda")(Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhur, Page 98) http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA113&dq=asmahan+syria (Quote: "Journey to Asmahans territory" and after that "Jabal Druze (Swedia)" in southern Syria. (Asmahan's Secrets By Sherifa Zuhu,Page 4) --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


We're not going to call her Egyptian-Syrian and use her marriage as a source. Adding info about her mother in the Family section is fine, whatever. But I have a problem with this whole "Egyptian by adoption" thing essentially means nothing since it has no context. Did the government say "we adopt you as a naturalized citizen?" Is it the writer's own judgment on the topic? I don't know. But rather than having a huge discussion in the lead about her nationality or ethnicity, we can move it down lower. You two have clearly shown that we can't have a definitive answer in the lead, so I just don't want it to be there at all. Just a few lines in some section about her personal life or whatever that says "Writer X wrote in Book Y that Asmahan was 'Egyptian by adoption.'" And that she was nationalized as Egyptian, with a link to that al-quds article. We will state just what the sources say, and that'll be it. If you want, I'll come up with a draft of my proposal. Is any of that okay with you? If not, then we're going to have larger problems here. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 05:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


Annyong, you seem to be confusing two issues, probably because the Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper article is in Arabic. These two issues are:
  • 1. Asmahan and the rest of her family who immigrated to Egypt (as political refugees; notice there is no reference to any sort of adoption here) were granted Egyptian citizenship by the government of Egypt, source: Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper article, ""وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع", which can be translated to: "The whole family was granted Egyptian citizenship, and they enjoyed it, including Asmahan of course....". The following journal article also states that Farid al-Atrash was naturalized as an Egyptian citizen: The Evolution of Rai Music by Hana Noor Al-Deen, Journal of Black Studies, May 2005; vol. 35: pp. 597 - 611.
And,
  • 2. It was Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash who adopted Egypt as their homeland, not the other way around. Sources: World Music and Asmahan's Sectrets. So, no, it was not "citizenship by adoption" on the part of the Egyptian Government, there is no such thing. They became full-fledged Egyptian citizens.
SD needs to provide sources to show that Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash carried Syrian citizenship, otherwise, it would be most accurate to leave the current statement in the article, "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin", unchanged, since all the sources presented so far support this statement.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Citizenship is proven by that they were from Syria, farid was born in Syria, They're father was Syrian, they lived the first years of their lives in Syria. No one is walking around stateless in their homeland, Just like now one is questioning that Bill Gates has american citizenship, although I don't think there are many articles mentioning his american citizenship because of course he had it, same thing with Farid and Asmahan.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The Al-Quds Al-Arabi article states that Asmahan had lost her Syrian citizenship and only regained it through marriage to her cousin. Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's circumstances were by no means typical. They fled and became refugees in another country, which is basis for withdrawal of their original citizenship, and that is what the article indicates. One of the sources I have read stated that they didn't have traveling documents when they arrived in Egypt, page 39. In the early 20th century, it is quite possible that they had never officially become citizens of either Syria or Lebanon at that young age. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Page 39 can not be seen. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I am able to see page 39 online. It says: "At Al-Arish, they were confronted by the immigration official, for Alia had no proper traveling documents... Alia told the official that he must call Saad Zaghlul himself and tell him that Alia Al-Mundhir Al-Atrash, from the House of Sultan Al-Atrash seeks him and asks him to stand as sponsor.... Zaghlul himself came online. "Madame al-Atrash," he said, "you are welcome in Egypt and I will assist you as I can." --Arab Cowboy (talk) 01:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


(outdent) Arab Cowboy, all I'm trying to do is to come to some agreement so that the article can be unlocked and we can resume normal editing. But I'm really starting to grow tiresome of this. I've offered a solution which SD has agreed to, which makes you the only person still holding onto your point of view or whatever. It's actually becoming tendentious. You haven't come up with your own solution to resolve the dispute in an amicable way. The next logical step I can think of is a request for comment. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Annyong: I, too, have offered an amicable compromise solution, which was even more generous to the opponent than the one you had suggested, but unfortunately you do not seem to be grasping this issue, given your "citizenship by adoption" statement. I explained above, in great detail and in simple terms, where you are confused. The amicable compromise solution that I offered was to call Asmahan Syrian-Egyptian in the first paragraph, and mention her Lebanese mother in the Family section. If this compromise is not acceptable to you, and the text in the article as it is now, Egyptian with Syrian-Lebanese origin, which we have proven to be accurate is also not acceptable to you, then let's proceed with the next logical step, the RfC. You seem to have grown tired of this issue; I thank you for your efforts and would understand if you chose to withdraw at this point. I suggest soliciting the help of Admin Sancho to decipher this matter; he seems to be very organized and scholarly in his approach. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Argh. If it'll solve these issues and SD is okay with it, then I suppose calling her Egyptian-Syrian would be fine. But that's a term that you've made up here as a result of synthesizing sources. But hey, let's see. Supreme Deliciousness, are you okay with this? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Annyong: My preference remains the current version, "Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin". However, "Syrian-Egyptian" is not a synthesized term, please see here. It refers to persons with dual citizenship, with the first being their citizenship at birth. Please see Ahmed Zewail and Italian Egyptians, for example. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 01:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Two things

First of all, the article that is locked down now is not the original article, it is Arab Cowboys own creation where he deleted/changed several words undermining everything Syrian about Asmahan, for example when he deleted the word "returned" when she returned to her home village in Syria where she lived the first years of her life. This article does not belong to Arab Cowboy, he does not own it. Everything he has changed and that has not been agreed upon at the talkpage will be reverted back to how it was originally, please believe that.

Now to the first sentences: I support a version like HelloAnnyong mentioned, we don't label her anything in the first sentences, we only provide the raw facts for the reader.

For example: "Asmahan was a famous singer and actor. She was the sister of..." And then later in the original article they can read about her parents, where she was born, where she lived the first years of her life, when she moved and was naturalized in Egypt etc. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright. Right now, we're spinning our wheels. It seems that the three of us have reached out to get help from outside sources, but that hasn't yielded any results. On WP:EAR, SpinningSpark wrote the following:

"But for what its worth, my understanding of the facts are, briefly, 1. born Syria, 2. naturalised Egyptian. Surely to goodness the two of you can find a way of stating these simple facts in the article without getting into an edit war over whether she is Syrian or Eqyptian. Phrases such as Syrian-born can be used, there is no need for Wikipedia to decide which nationality she should be described as unless there is a source that affirms she self-describes a particular way."

"The fact that Asmahan was born on a boat does not change my opinion of how you should proceed, state the facts, including that one, and leave the reader to make up their own mind on everything else."

That roughly reflects my solution as suggested above. So that is, more or less, three people coming to the same conclusion, and Arab Cowboy is the only one arguing back. Also note how Spark wrote "a source that affirms she self-describes" - we don't have any sources like that. All we have are secondary sources.
So that's where I stand on this issue right now. If this isn't acceptable, then I suppose we can open an RfC for this - but only if everyone will agree to abide by whatever consensus is reached from it. If the consensus won't be respected, then we may as well not do it. As a side note, I'd ask you both to avoid edit warring on other pages like Anwar Wagdi and Atrash. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 20:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


Annyong: I do not see the SpinningSpark's comments anywhere on this page! But, regardless, we are discussing the first paragraph of the article, and there are three options presented as follows:
1. Current version: Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin (my preference and supported by reliable sources).
2. Compromise Solution of Arab Cowboy: Syrian-Egyptian (assuming she carried Syrian citizenship at birth and supported by this source).
3. Compromise Solution of Annyong/Spark: Egyptian citizen, born at sea.
If this is the case, then any one of the three solutions above is acceptable to me.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 01:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, no, you misrepresented my version. Mine is that we make no reference to her citizenship in the header, and that we merely state in the prose (maybe the Life section) what the sources say. I'll even write the text if need be. I quoted all of SpinningSpark's comment so I didn't cut off anything. And Spark's comments are at Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests#help with Asmahan dispute!. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 01:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I'll make a concession. Per what Spark said, another option would be to state out in the lede that: "Asmahan was born in Syria(ref) and was a naturalized Egyptian(ref)." We have sources for both, and not much more. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 01:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, I did not misrepresent anything. I stated, IF THIS IS THE CASE.... I relied on Spark's remark which did not mention that the statement needed to be later in the article. You seem to have been leaning toward a neutralized first paragraph regardless of the evidence. The evidence states explicitly that Asmahan was an Egyptian citizen and I do not see any reason for that to not be stated in the first paragraph, just like any other biography that I have seen on Wikipedia. SD is agreeing with your neutralized solution because he does not want to see "Egyptian citizen" in the first paragraph. You are welcome to state that Asmahan was born at sea and/or was of Syrian origin later in the article if you so desire. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 01:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, Annyong, I accept your last "concession". In the "lead" we can state that she was born at sea en route to Beirut, Lebanon (or Syria, whichever is more accurate), and was a naturalized Egyptian citizen. Only a word about the importance of her work, not the Atrash family military efforts, completes the "lead". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 01:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
It needs to be mentioned that either she was "of Syrian-Lebanese origin," or that she was born a Syrian or something. SD, do you agree with any of this? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
OK to "of Syrian-Lebanese origin". This is what SD's sources have shown so far. "Born a Syrian" needs an explicit reliable source or we'd be running into synthesis. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 02:30, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The evidence state clearly that she was born Syrian/lebanese. Any mention of Egyptian citizenship must clearly state that she wasn't born with it, that she got it later in her life, this so called "compromise" solution by Arab Cowboy": 3. Compromise Solution of Annyong/Spark: Egyptian citizen, born at sea." is a joke and makes people believe that she was born Egyptian, any mention of Egyptian citizenship must clearly state that she got that later in life, same with Farid. Asmahan born heading to Lebanon, lived the first years of her life in Syria, Farid born in Syria, lived the firsts years of his life in Syria, But this is of course to long to have in the beginning, that's why I support a version like HelloAnnyong mentioned. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

And what is this supposed to show? If someone doesn't have a passport with him at a certain point of time it doesn't mean he isn't a citizen of a nation or that he doesn't have a passport, or that he haven't had a passport in the past. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The burden of proof of their Syrian citizenship is upon you. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Where they was born, what they're parents was and where they lived is proof enough. The burden of proof of Asmahan and Farid being stateless before emigrating to Egypt is up to you. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Look, this is getting tiresome. SD clearly doesn't agree with the solutions proposed. I tend to agree with stating that her Egyptian citizenship was later gained. I don't think there's a burden of proof to show that she was a Syrian citizen when she was born; that's just silly. Hence my original solution of stating none of the above, and letting people come to their own conclusions. Having said that, I'm going to go through and clean up this article, 'cause it's pretty sad. You both need to heavily study WP:PEACOCK, as this article greatly suffers from it. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 13:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me state this plainly: I support this version of the page. It doesn't state that she's Syrian, Egyptian, or Lebanese; it merely says that her father was Syrian, her mother was Lebanese, and that they family moved to Egypt, where they were naturalized. I think that's the way it should be. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, you might have wanted to carefully compare the versions before you supported one version over the other. SD did not just change the nationality in the lead, but a whole lot of other text in the article. His version is not acceptable, and if you support it after you actually check it, then we will need to go for an RfC. Nationality needs to be in lead as discussed & thought agreed above in this Talk page. I supported your latest edit before SD messed with it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
There were a bunch of edits in there. I supported this one, not this one. The reason I supported it is because it's the most neutral of all the other ones we've seen so far. There is no reason that her nationality needs to be discussed in the lead. The RfC is open. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Nationality in the lead aside, Annyong, have you seen all the other changes within that edit that you call most neutral? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

Alright, I've gone through and really edited this article down. As you can see in this three edits, the largest portion of stuff I removed is peacock terms. It is unencyclopedic to say things like "success was only to crown the efforts of the two most gifted: Farid and Amal" and "She was known for her beauty". In the section about her early career, we don't need long, drawn out statements about the "high tessitura and difficult florid and coloraturas passages" in the songs she sang. If nothing else, it's WP:OR - and if you got it from a book and copied it verbatim, that's a copyright violation. I left the section about her vocal characteristics alone for now because I really need to think about what to do with it. It should probably be thrown out, though, as adding way too much weight to the topic. So if you two are going to have your edit war, please don't undo my edits. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 13:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The last version of Annyong, timestamp: 15:48, 2 July 2009, is agreed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll agree that these edits took it a little too far. But I've opened an RfC, so we'll see what other people say. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Agreed by who? Yourself and now one else: "I supported this one http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299898043&oldid=299882338 — HelloAnnyong" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
It is Annyong's version that I agreed to. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

More Edit Warring

Annyong, please explain what is involved in this RfC process. This second edit option that you present contains SD's added stuff that was never discussed here and is not acceptable. How can you present it as an option? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec) The RfC is open now. It gets listed at a central location, and people will come here and read the discussion and leave their opinions below. The edit I listed is basically what SD and I agreed should be used. It's neutral to her nationality, and merely states the facts in the prose. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong:
  • The article should not be neutral to her nationality.
  • The edit you listed did not just neutralize her nationality, but also changed a lot of other text within the article, none of which was agreed on this page.
  • You seem to have agreed an edit with SD elsewhere, disregarding my opinion, as if I had not been involved from the start! How can you call that consensus or even compromise?
  • Your latest edit of 15:48, 2 July 2009 is acceptable and does not need to be changed further.
  • Where is that central location where people will leave opinions?
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
People will leave opinions on this page under this header. As to my agreement with SD, I think we both came to the conclusion earlier in our discussion; we haven't discussed it outside of this page. Both SD and I agreed that the page should be neutral to her nationality, and since we both just agreed that that version was okay, I listed it as such. Since you said that my latest edit, post cleanup is okay, I've updated the link in the RfC to this one. But now I think it's time to cool down, step away from this article for a bit, and let the opinions come in. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, thank you. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The article Arab Cowboy has created is not the original article, nor is it sourced. It is Arab Cowboys own creation where he deleted/changed several words undermining everything Syrian about Asmahan, for example when he deleted the word "returned" when she returned to her home village in Syria where she lived the first years of her life. He removed that it was her "home town" And many more things, What I did was to bring back everything he deleted and added sources showing them to be correct, I also added new material to improve the article, everything backed up with sources.

This is the original article before the edit war compared to ArabCowboys version where he is deleting and undermining everything Syrian: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299903988&oldid=278391483

This is my last edit, I brought back the deleted segments and added sources for everything from the original article, and new material with sources: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299903052&oldid=299860194

Arab Cowboys also says here: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=299910277&oldid=299909847

"but also changed a lot of other text within the article, none of which was agreed on this page." This is coming from a man who he himself changed the whole article without any source or without any kind of agreement at all at the talk page, while I re-established the original article, brought in new info everything sourced.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The RfC section isn't meant to turn into a continuation of the edit war. So let's just let this end here. Both SD and Arab have given their opinions on the subject, so now we wait for opinions to come in. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong,
  • whatever happened to "Actually, I'll make a concession. Per what Spark said, another option would be to state out in the lede that: "Asmahan was born in Syria(ref) and was a naturalized Egyptian(ref)." We have sources for both, and not much more. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 01:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)"???
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
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