Talk:Asceticism in Judaism

Asceticism not encouraged in Judaism

This whole article, and this section in particular, reads like a polemic against Christianity. The article goes to great lengths to distinguish between non-Jewish and Jewish motivations for the exact same action. Nor is it theologically accurate in assuming that there is no doctrine of "orginial sin" in Judaism. The teaching that the world was "distorted" by the actions of Adam and Ever is strongly present in Judaism and is where Christianity inherits that teaching from. The text here implies that Christianity somehow manufactured Jewish teachings ex post facto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.57.213.243 (talk) 00:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this criticism of the article. In fact (and as a Jew), the article makes me kind of uncomfortable. Also the implication that Buddhism somehow inherited or stole this concept from Christianity sounds wrong. Almost the entire thing is lifted from an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Though I think it's cool to import articles from public domain encyclopedias, in this case the article doesn't seem up to Wikipedia standards. The section on Judaism in the Asceticism article seems much fairer (though also lacks citations). I've added some templates: might not be NPOV, has no inline citations, and needs more references. I'm not sure what else to do, since I currently don't have the time or knowledge to make this article better. Maybe WikiProject Judaism can help. Sir Tobek (talk) 10:15, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mussar not mentioned?

This article has been around forever, and mussar is not even mentioned? Mussar always emphasized the struggle between the flesh and the soul. In its heyday, the Mussar movement's more extreme and controversial elements certainly delved into asceticism, even self-effacement. Also, according to at least one credible source from within Orthodoxy (http://www.lookstein.org/links/orthodoxy.htm), a weak asceticism (in the sense of the body and natural desires being a liability to spirituality, not inherently evil) has always been a part of traditional Judaism. This article seems to define asceticism very strongly and contrast Jewish religious practice with that definition. 74.137.17.66 (talk) 21:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with this page

This "Asceticism in Judaism" page as it appeared on Friday, June 23, 2012 is an atrocious violation of Neutral Point of View. The page systematically ignores the Asceticism that is rampant in Judaism.

I would suggest that anyone attempting to rewrite this important page should first sample the first-hand accounts of clear asceticism in Judaism. For example, search GoogleBooks for ["my ascetic religious life will begin."] to find one first-hand account of a woman who takes on the ascetic life of Judaism. That first-hand account in GoogleBooks, of course, is in Reva Mann's "The Rabbi's Daughter."

And I suggest that this Wikipedia page should use a secular definition from a secular dictionary for the words "ascetic" and "asceticism." In any modern secular context, it is ridiculous to claim that asceticism has anything to do with "the wickedness of this life and the corruption under sin of the flesh."

A typical secular definition for "ascetic" would be something like the following. "An ascetic is a person who renounces material comforts and leads a life of austere self-discipline" for any reason. Many ascetics renounce material comforts and lead a life of austere self-discipline "as an act of religious devotion."

Clearly, from all the Reliable Sources, the asceticism in Judaism includes denials of voluptuous sex purely for pleasure, denials of good spicy tastes like pork and shrimp, and denials of spending the Sabbath in selfish extravagant pleasures such as starting automobiles, starting electric elevators, and turning-on television sets with one of those wonderful Super Bowl games on it. No one but an ascetic caught in some kind of asceticism would spend even one week in such stupid renunciation of material comforts; well maybe an experimentalist would try it once to see how bad the Asceticism in Judaism actually is. Rednblu (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Observant Jews do not generally find the things you mention to be a burden, especially not in community; they come naturally, and in fact they consider the vapidity and frankly stupidity of the culture as the real burden. A matter of perspective, you see.

However, I do think that in the past the article has given undue weight to the view that there is no such thing as asceticism in Judaism, which is obviously false. It still needs improvement in that regard. Where is the section on Mussar? What about the Ari and his clearly ascetic life? Real asceticism in Judaism exists, only it is rarefied 74.141.69.51 (talk) 03:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that there is no self control in Judaism. This is clearly nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.47.203.30 (talk) 02:44, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Update

Yes, the page really was bad - whether by the standards of Wikipedia or the standards of the Jewish Encylopedia 100 years ago. I have done extensive rewriting and now it should be reasonably good. Comments welcome. Ar2332 (talk) 18:18, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]