Talk:American and British English pronunciation differences

Address

It’s interesting how we have the word address(noun) listed as having a secondary pronunciation where the stress is on the first syllable as surely that’s the primary pronunciation in the U.S? I have heard an essentially British sounding pronunciation used sometimes though - I’m currently rewatching Breaking Bad and Mike Ehrmantraut (Jonathan Banks) uses the British pronunciation but Walter White (Bryan Cranston) uses the typically American ‘ADDress’ pronunciation later in the same episode. Might there be regional differences? Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:05, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Both pronunciations are used in the U.S., though that with the stress on the first syllable is probably more common. The difference seems to be more individual than regional. Kostaki mou (talk) 02:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps we should list the version with the stress on the first syllable as the primary pronunciation though? Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:14, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Kostaki mou: Correct! @Overlordnat1: It's already listed on the French stress section. Here's two links to cite as sources:

An English Pronouncing Dictionary Ed.6

Pronouncing dictionary of American English

NKM1974 (talk) 02:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@NKM1974: unfortunately it won’t be possible to give ADDress as the main American pronunciation based on those sources as they seem to think that uDRESS is the main American as well as British pronunciation but as long as both are listed as possible then that’s not so bad. Interestingly enough, not only have I heard Shaun Evans say ADDress when playing Endeavour Morse but I was on the phone to a Glaswegian yesterday to change the address on my bank account and he said ADDress rather than uDRESS more than once. Perhaps this pronunciation is part of Scottish and Scouse accents (though Shaun speaks in an RP voice for the particular role of Morse, of course) rather than being purely an Americanism? --Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Glasgow

It’s wrong to describe Glasgow as a word that isn’t affected by the trap-bath split. The pronunciation of Glasgow is much closer to the American one than the South East England one for most people in most places in Northern England and Scotland and for the most part the Midlands and even Wales and the West Country to some extent. Basically if you say glass with an /æ/ then you’ll say Glasgow with an /æ/ (and the same principle applies to those people who say the first vowel as /ɑː/).

Also, even though Nevada is the only state where the standard British pronunciation is significantly different to the standard American one due to the contrast between these vowels, there are dated British pronunciations that can still be heard such as ‘LouisiAHna’, ‘AlabAHma’ and ‘IndiAHna’ and people who say ask as ‘AHsk’, so mainly those from South East England, sometimes also say ‘AlAHska’ and ‘NebrAHska’.

I should add that I say Abu Dhabi with two different vowels, /æ/ in the first word and /ɑː/ in the second. I’d say that I was typical of most British people in that regard, though all four possible pronunciations of the place that can be made by using either of these two vowels in either place can be heard in Britain (I’m personally from the West Midlands FWIW). Overlordnat1 (talk) 15:27, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: Glasgow^A2 UK: /ˈɡlɑːzɡoʊ/, US: /ˈɡlæsɡoʊ/ was listed on the multiple difference section before & removed by @Dbfirs: more than 5 years ago.

08:41, 21 September 2017

08:46, 21 September 2017

Reason for removal:

I've removed Glasgow since only those who learnt to speak hundreds of miles from that place in the UK would pronounce it with /ɑ:/. Dbfirs 08:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The pronunciation of Abu Nidal is trap on the 1st & 2nd vowels. Check the 3rd edition of Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & 18th edition of Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionaries for phonetics & pronunciations. NKM1974 (talk) 10:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

OK, I’ve just removed Glasgow for the same reason that the previous editor sensibly removed it a while ago. I’d say Abu Nidal with two short ‘a’ sounds, it’s Abu Dhabi that I would say with two different ‘a’ vowels. I’ll investigate further before making any further changes, though what I’m saying is a fact. This is an excellent article, on the whole, but there are some other somewhat dubious claims here and there - perhaps most obviously being the pronunciation of Mardi Gras - who has EVER said that with a stress on the second syllable in Britain (or anywhere else)? --Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I’ve also tagged the extremely dubious Mardi Gras pronunciation. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: This is what's on the register for the pronunciation Mardi Gras from 2008 Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd ed.), 2011 Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.) & 2017 The Routledge Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English (2nd ed.): UK: /ˌmɑːrdi ˈɡrɑː/, US: /ˈmɑːrdi ˌɡrɑː/. NKM1974 (talk) 12:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@NKM1974: It’s impossible to get a free preview of the contents of the Routledge and Longman books on Google Books and the Cambridge dictionary can only be viewed up to the letter b[1] but surely what you’ve just written supports the notion that there is sometimes a stress on the third syllable instead of the first? A stress on the second syllable would be notated as something like the following:- UK: /mɑːrˈdi ɡrɑː/. Also if you search for the pronunciation on Youglish or look through the dictionary pronunciations found on OneLook.com (including one given by the Cambridge Pronunciation Dictionary) then you’ll see and/or hear a stress on the first syllable and sometimes a secondary stress on the third but not one on the second--Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:01, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: I can't give you the information for Longman & Cambridge because Wikipedia doesn't allow downloading, big or small, files. @Nardog: has more information on phonetics than I do. NKM1974 (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: UPDATE: Go to page 834 of 1,571 for information on The Routledge Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English NKM1974 (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@NKM1974: Thanks for that useful link which I have enjoyed perusing and shall look at in more detail when I get the time - it does simply confirm what you’ve already posted in this case though, as it says that the stress is on the third syllable in British English but not the first or the second. Bearing that in mind it belongs with the disciplinary set of words, two boxes below where we currently have it (with the very very odd suggested pronunciation of Panama, it’s a clear fact that the vast majority of people in Britain say Panama and Mardi Gras with the stress on the first syllable not the third - of course it would be ‘original research’ to include that in the article but I’ve literally never heard PanaMA instead of PAnama.). --Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: 2008 Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd ed.) & 2011 Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.) are available in CD-ROM or book format. Go to your local library to borrow the book or install the CD-ROM software on your personal computer. The CD-ROM works perfectly on Windows 7/8/10. I'm not sure if this works on Windows 11. NKM1974 (talk) 06:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Majority of Your Posts Removed on American and British English pronunciation differences

Santiago Claudio: I will ping, @Mutt Lunker:, @Sundayclose: & @Valereee:, in hopes that you reply to my message & don't respond "I have checked". I want a follow-up response & don't take this as an attack.

Where do you find these information? Why do you like editing this article, even though, it will be checked, verified & removed eventually? You're more of a liability rather than an asset & this is sabotage. You pick a random word that you read or heard somewhere & suddenly it has regional differences. That's not how to determine regional differences.

You mentioned English is in your register, but it isn't. If English is in your register, you should also know French/miscellaneous stress sections, splits/mergers of English phonology & phonetic rules. There's more to English other than single & multiple pronunciation differences.

This page is based on original research, but majority of my post are still there & some of them are deleted for a reason. I never bring back deleted post, but you still continue. My post is verifiable. While, yours is already covered in the section.

The Routledge Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English

Here are the information, with page numbers for verification:

+Graeme/Graham[e] - Removed, check page 591/1591.

T(h)eresa - Removed, check page 1392 & 1400 of 1591.

Southern German variant of Ludwig [ˈluːtvɪk] is a dialect & will therefore be removed.

Partisan is already listed in the French stress section.

Rioja /riˈoʊxə/ sounds likes a /k/ in Loch & will therefore be removed.

Only three will remain: bastion - check page 143 of 1591; consortium - check page 300/1591 & Sebastian - check 1233 of 1591.

I hope you're not going to reinstate these materials again because it's displeasing & frustrating.

I only edit certain materials, such as, punctuation & spelling. You just edit everything you see & seem very impatient that you want to move forward quickly. I only have 934 total edits to my name compared to 33,324 live edits to your name. Wikipedia seems like a game or competition to you, that is, "How many articles can I edit in 24 hours?". The reason that I'm not active is because reading & writing messages can be long & intimidating. Also, if an issue arises regarding my post, I will likely be inundated with posts on both article & personal page of the Talk section. I have a limited time replying to messages. The reason users are complaining is because they want to eliminate toxic users & resolve conflicts/issues regarding users & articles. Also, Wikipedia has quality control standards.

You should leave articles alone, especially relating to languages in Wikipedia.

Since you don't know phonetics, click here or the above link for more information.

I have a suggestion & advice that you should take into consideration:

Suggestion: Head to your local library to find these two English pronunciation & phonetic transcriptions dictionaries to borrow the book or install the CD-ROM on your personal computer: (3rd ed.) 2008 Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & (18th ed.) 2011 Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary. The CD-ROM works perfectly on Windows 7/8/10. I'm not sure if this works on Windows 11.

Advice: Take phonetic lessons, read the dictionary & watch old audio/video from the previous century (that is, from the 1930s until 1990s). NKM1974 (talk) 23:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that I've ever edited at American and British English pronunciation differences. Not sure why I was pinged? Valereee (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Valereee:, The reason that I pinged you because this user was uncooperative & never replies to messages in the past before he was blocked. You can monitor the situation, if you like. It's on the Species section of his talk page above. NKM1974 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't go out of my house most of the day for many years now, and I've never went to that library for that reason. Santiago Claudio (talk) 00:40, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@NKM1974: The very link you provide to Routledge confirms that the monosyllabic pronunciation of Graham exists in America as a secondary pronunciation (though not in Britain), so why delete that? The first time I heard the odd ‘Gram’ version was from a Northern Irish girl as it happens but it doesn’t seem to exist anywhere else in Ireland or Britain - she was half-American with a strange hybrid accent and thus just a special case. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Moved to User talk:Santiago Claudio § Majority of Your Posts Removed on American and British English pronunciation differences

 – NKM1974 (talk) 01:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: The phonetics are shown with pronunciations on LPD3 & CEPD18: /ˈɡreɪəm/ & /ɡreɪm/. This is similar to a user that posted Craig with /ɛ/ & /eɪ/ but was removed because they are allophones. I'm not an expert on phonetics. I only check & post items on the register. @Nardog: knows more about phonetics than I do. Were you able to find LPD3 (2008) or CEPD18 (2011) in CD-ROM or book format at your local library? NKM1974 (talk) 01:55, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I can’t say I’ve tried to find those specific texts yet but it’s not only Routledge that lists a difference, just look up Graham at OneLook.com and you’ll see most dictionaries give two separate pronunciations for British and American English. I prefer the analyses given in Merriam-Webster, dictionary.com and two of the other online dictionaries which both give Random House dictionary as a reference - they all transcribe Graham in such a way as to effectively claim that some Americans pronounce Graham in the same way that most English people say ‘gram’, though Merriam-Webster goes as far as to claim it can be ‘Gra-um’. Some other dictionaries use the silly diglyph formed by combining ‘a’ and ‘e’, thus basically saying that the pronunciation can be ‘gram’ or ‘grem’, thus meaning there are at least 3 possible (from my perspective) non-standard pronunciations that could be listed as Americanisms. The version you mention that sounds like ‘Grame’ is surely just what happens when someone says the word in the standard way (Gray-um) but they’re speaking at a mile a minute, I doubt it’s standard anywhere and ‘grame’ and ‘grem’ sound completely different to each other anyway (so your comment about allophones seems somewhat baffling to me). Overlordnat1 (talk) 02:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1:, I agree with @Wolfdog: recent edit that most dictionaries give the wrong pronunciation. Nutella is a registered trademark & it should be removed. NKM1974 (talk) 05:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Rejecting dictionary pronunciations is bizarre and, anyway, all you have to do is look up the pronunciation of Graham on YouGlish for both the U.K. and the US and hear the difference for yourself. The same goes for ‘Craig’ and ‘Nutella’ btw. Clearly @Wolfdog: was right that the fact that Oxford and MW have contradictory pronunciation notes for cumin is unhelpful but the obvious reality is that most people in both Britain and America say ‘cyoomin’ or, rarely, ‘coomin’. The ‘cummin’ pronunciation, if it exists at all in Britain (or anywhere else), is much rarer. YouGlish confirms this fact. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Wording of Moscow example

Apologies for half finishing an edit, getting distracted, and clicking "Save page" hours later; I am prone to this unfortunately. What I was trying to do was clarify the Moscow example was tweak the wording to clarify the point being made. The existing wording was:

For example, Moscow is RP /ˈmɒskoʊ/ and GAm /ˈmɒskaʊ/, but only the /oʊ/–/aʊ/ difference is highlighted here, since both the presence of a contrastive /ɒ/ vowel in RP (which falls together with /ɑː/ in GA) and the RP use of [əʊ] rather than [oʊ] are predictable from the accent.

In my view, this is confusing; it is self evident from the full transcriptions given in the first part of the sentence that "only the /oʊ/–/aʊ/ difference is highlighted here", as that is the only difference between the two full transcriptions that were just given. The preceding "but" is incongruous since that implies that "only the /oʊ/–/aʊ/ difference is highlighted here" contracicts the previously given full transcriptions, when in fact it is in agreement with them.

The sentence then talks about the [əʊ] - [oʊ] and /ɒ/ - /ɑ/ differences between RP and GA, but the fact that the word Moscow would be pronounced with those different vowels in the respective accents hasn't been explained anywhere. For this to make sense, it first needs to be explained how the respective pronunciations would be transcribed in accent-specific notation.

I have altered the wording to:

For example, in their respective conventional accent-specific transcription systems, Moscow would be transcribed as RP /ˈmɒskəʊ/ and GAm /ˈmɑskaʊ/, but it is RP /ˈmɒskoʊ/ and GAm /ˈmɒskaʊ/ in the transcription system used in this article. Only the /oʊ/–/aʊ/ difference is highlighted here, since both the presence of a contrastive /ɒ/ vowel in RP (which falls together with /ɑː/ in GA) and the RP use of [əʊ] rather than [oʊ] are predictable from the accent.

I am not entirely happy with the wording of this as it seems a bit cumbersome in places, but I think it makes the point that was missing in the previous version. Offa29 (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)