Talk:Amaterasu/Archive 1

Archive 1

citation needed

For the purposes of another article, I have fact tagged "Until the end of World War II, the Japanese royal family claimed descent from Amaterasu." Could someone cite this, please? Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I am pretty sure the Imperial family still claims descent from Amaterasu. This is so central to the foundation of their national identity and the power and importance of the Emperor that I don't believe it could ever be changed. The 1946 New Year's speech by the Showa Emperor was designed to satisfy Western (American) desires, but I cannot imagine it changed the view of the Japanese people one bit.

The quote, as I have it, reads: "The ties between us and our people have always stood upon mutual trust and affection. They do not depend upon mere legends and myths. They are not predicated on the false conception that the Emperor is divine and that the Japanese people are superior to other races and fated to rule the world." This comes from David Lu's "Japan: A Documentary History", which takes it from the January 1, 1946 translation printed by the New York Times. The Imperial family may not claim divine descent as blatantly or loudly or officially as they once did, but I do not believe that the nation's cultural & religious core has changed; only the way they choose to talk about it. LordAmeth 01:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Also, the emphasis seems to be on the idea that the Emperor is not a living god, not that he is somehow not descended from the Sun Goddess all of a sudden, just because they lost a war. elvenscout742 20:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Few people in Japan take the descent from Amaterasu stuff seriously. As a percentage of the population I have little doubt that it is far, far smaller than the percentage of people in Christian countries who believe all humans descend from Adam and his transformed rib. I would be very surprised if any of the imperial family took it seriously, and I would be very interested to see support for LordAmeth's "I am pretty sure the Imperial family still claims descent from Amaterasu."-Jefu 17:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe it's not taken seriously, but I don't see much evidence that this tidbit of information was explicitly denied by HIM Showa Tenno. It was mostly about whether he himself was a god. Take the kings of Sweden, for example: they have little reason to believe that they are descended directly from the Norse god Odin, but they don't really have anyone else from whom to claim to be descended. It's the same with the Emperors of Japan. What I want to know is why, if the most important being in the history of the Imperial Family was a woman, can a woman not ascend to the throne ; ) ?

Actually, kings of Sweden in the past two centuries have not expressed the Odin descent very loudly, as they descend from a French revolutionary general, and not from any native dynasty in a throne-inherited route. Why woman cannot ascend the Japanese throne, is mostly due to Prussians and Americans. Before western influences, there were eight female emperors of Japan. Older Japanese traditins allow for female monarchs, thus.

Tensho Daijin

Why does "Tensho Daijin" redirect to here? I don't know what it means, and neither of those words are in the article. I followed a link to it when searching for the Tensho period. --70.142.32.238 05:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

moon+human legend

There is a legend where she fell in love with the moon, and they both came to earth where they further fell in love with a man. Can anyone cite this or help me provide documentation? Chris 13:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is the same myth but I've seen reference that tsuki-yomi (the moon kami and her brother) used to be Amaterasu's consort. They had a falling out (I don't know what about) and she banished him from her sight. Thus the sun/moon cycle of the day. 138.88.125.237 (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC));

Reference to the video game

Not cool to just remove the mention of it, not giving a motivation and marking it as a minor edit. I am reverting. Hattes (talk) 23:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

And I am reverting your edit. This article is about the historical Amaterasu. Not fictional ones. We have pages for pop culture Ama. Its trivial to add this here. Xuchilbara (talk) 01:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I see now that the disambiguation page takes care of it perfectly, though I could argue that the distinction between mythology and popular culture is not entirely clear. If we had been dealing with an actual historical person I would see it differently (even though articles such as Oda Nobunaga have a similar section to what I was trying to set up). Also, you don't seem to have understood the meaning of a "minor" edit. No content should be changed, and you quite obviously changed content. Hattes (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to know, why Nethack can't be included. A Samurai player worship Amaterasu. He could pray to Her - she helps him a lot. She even fight with other gods (Raijin or Susanowo) for him. I don't understand why game in which you can sacrifice something for your good in order to please her (if she get angry at you) can't be included - but game "shrine to Amaterasu (Tensho Doijin) is used to invoke an eclipse." is. It's definitely historical Amaterasu and improves Japanese feeling of the character played. I would like to know why that was reverted (at http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Amaterasu&diff=242018622&oldid=242018317) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.87.147.190 (talk) 12:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Please contribute it. It's not a matter of "can't" but does it provide useful and relevant information to someone who would like to know about how the stories of Amaterasu are applied today. The section isn't meant to be a shout out. Are there instances of sacrifice (as you mention) in Amaterasu's story? The section should not include references that are fairly incidental, like a story line that uses names but does not contain any real characteristics of the traditional goddess. Ando228 (talk) 16:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Amaterasu as a Male God?

An anonymous contributor added what may be an interesting (if poorly written) piece of culture. However the author did not provide a source, so it seems ill-suited for the article as-is. Does anybody have any knowledge of this?

Amaterasu is often regarded as a goddess. But in some occasions, Amaterasu is regarded as a male god whose wife goddess is Seoritsu hime. But Seoritsu hime was hidden, probably , Fujiwara family in Nara and Heian period. It was about 1300 years ago.So,Japanese mythological history books,Kojiki and Nihon shoki deliberately excluded Seoritsu hime. While,in Hotsuma tsutae,Amaterasu is regarded as a male god and Seoritsu hime is regarded as his wife goddess.

--Ando228 (talk) 16:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Japan mythology box

Where to start, first of all spiritual belief, religion and mythology are not the same. The mythology box is HUGE, ungainly, and poorly designed. It lacks the humility usually associated with Shinto and the topics. Second, mythological stories with Buddhist themes are not related directly with Shinto. The Japanese mythology section may have some relations, but it is simply duplicating the already extant Shinto template that is more thorough and accurate to Shinto topics. This is a living religion, and not simply mythology. Also the names of the most important kami are innacurate and out of proper order. There is a see also for Japanese Mythology and this is then triplicating the same links. It is unneeded and unwieldy. Takashi Ueki (talk) 00:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed it again, this is not just Japanese mythology, it is Shinto religion. The mythology has plenty of links to it.

July 17

Does anybody know where the info that Amaterasu is celebrated all over Japan on July 17 comes from? As far I can see, it is not in the ja.wiki article.Mycomp (talk) 08:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

What about myth itself?

Where is it? It doesn't make sense at all for comparing two versions of myth, but never provide overview of myth itself. For instance, who is her consort? Is he Takami Musubi or is he Tsukuyomi? L-Zwei (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Origin languages

The consonants MTR and MDR with assorted vowels are used all over Europe to mean "mother". Mitera in Greek, Madre in Spanish and Italian, Mater in Latin and Mutre in German. The slavic language group uses variation of "majka" for mother.

http://translate.google.com/#en/el/your%20mother

Google translate, translates "your mother" into "Η μητέρα σας" in Greek which is the plural form, indicating the mother of more then one, "Η μητέρα σu" is the singular possessive form, in other words your (singular) mother. Sound is available at google translate for the Greek "your (plural) mother" version.71.174.141.4 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

"Amaterasu in popular culture" section

From April 2006 to July 2007, people were building quite a significant list of references to Amaterasu in popular culture (see the second link), until User:Auximines deleted it without any discussion.

I would like to see this section reinstated, but I think we should have a vote, and people should not just make changes it without discussing it here first. What do people think? Should it be kept or removed? Wilbot (talk) 08:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The section could be useful if the pop culture references are about the goddess in more than just name. Most of the references as of the July 2007 edit would not help someone researching the legacy of Amaterasu in popular culture. For instance, "Amaterasu was the name of the main flagship in the anime Starship Operators" or "A character in Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series is named Amerasu after her." I believe that would be similar to listing every incidental appearance or mention of George Washington in his cultural depictions page, which it thankfully doesn't. Good examples of what to keep would be "Amaterasu appeared as a character in the 2003 film Onmyoji II, played by Kyōko Fukada" (seems to be based on traditional legends) and "In Dream Saga Amaterasu is to be consumed by the nature's dragon Susanoo in order to wipe out humanity and let the world be reborn" (applies traditional concept of Amaterasu in a new story.) Ando228 (talk) 16:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. Add the pop-culture section, but only include actual references to the deity, story, or something that borrows from it, not everything that uses the name "Amaterasu" without explanation.--64.149.36.43 (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I also agree it should be um implemented how a bout a poll? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BaconBoy914 (talk • contribs) 19:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This conversations is moving so slowly that I just added the section again with a very limited amount of entries from the last version. The section should only contain references to Amaterasu as the Shinto deity. Lets be selective in our additions. Ando228 (talk) 15:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of incidental references to Amaterasu, like the Naruto addition. An author or game designer needs a name for something to do with fire or heat so they just plop Amaterasu on top. These probably shouldn't be ignored but I don't think the bullet point method currently used is appropriate because it would become too overwhelming and not informative. Do people agree that a paragraph-style summary that cites some instances would be more appropriate? The whole Popular Culture section should probably be in paragraph form. If no one wants to write it, maybe they could at least note some examples here in the talk page. Ando228 (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm surprised no one made a reference to Urusei Yatsura (Rumiko Takahashi's manga)in relation to Amaterasu. In their story, the Tomobiki High group with Lum and Ataru plan on performing a play about the Amaterasu Legend (more specifically her retreating into a cave), when unwittingly, the real Amaterasu shows up. Naturally, Ataru hits on her, Lum insults her to where she retreats into a portable cave. The gods come and re-enact the legend to get Amaterasu to come out. Except here, the gods keep her locked in the cave instead. When a furious Amaterasu inquires this nonsense, the god holding her inside says, "You crazy? Once you step out, the party's over!" As expected, the Tomobiki gang slink away, disillusioned by another Legend skewered by Ataru and Lum's unwitting interference. Ironically, that's how I learned about Amaterasu's Legend.Fangarius (talk) 15:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Fangarius, that sounds like it would be a great addition to the section. Especially if the characters typically take on legends in the manga. Thank you for mentioning it. Ando228 (talk) 23:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Apparently all the readers do not get the point here. Shinto is a religion and Amatarasu Omikami is one of the main gods associated with this religion. This is not the place for pop culture discussions. There should a page for pop culture discussions and I am going to move this and all other references to a place that does not disrespect the millions of people who are believers. When you denigrate serious matters to discussions of anime and manga, you do disrespect. Takashi Ueki (talk) 04:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved it to Shinto (pop culture) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takashi Ueki (talk • contribs) 04:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the existence of Shinto (pop culture), and the fact that 'Amaterasu in popular culture' currently contains (only) a link to it, shouldn't this be moved to 'See also'? Perhaps there could be a piped link to Shinto (pop culture)#Amatarasu called 'Amaterasu in popular culture'. Cnilep (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. I also moved a meta-comment from that section to Shinto (pop culture) Cnilep (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing this ongoing issue. Please try to keep an eye out for people reverting or recreating the section. --Ando228 (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The "Popular Culture" section has been restored, for whatever reason. I´m against it, its degrading and has, in my opinion, no place whatsoever in this article and should be moved to the Shinto (Popular Culture) article. Some people flood articles about japanese culture, religion and mythology with vulgar trivia that have no relevance to the subject matter. I´m left with the impression that a lot of people dont really take Shinto seriously, as if its not a "real" religion, and not deserving of the same respect thats given to belief systems like islam on this very site! 86.56.110.87 (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

The inclusion of the "Popular Culture" section, as with any other article in Wikipedia, is not meant as a sign of disrespect nor is it somehow evidence that "people [don't] really take Shinto seriously." Also, most of the entries in this section are Japanese in origin, which suggests that the use of Amaterasu in the popular culture of modern Japan is not as opprobrious as you seem to suggest.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC))

Bibliography

Will be expanded later on, but here is what I have so far:

• "Origin and Growth of the Worship of Amaterasu" by Matsumae Takeshi
• "Traditional Japanese Literature: An Anthology, Beginnings to 1600" Edited by Haruo Shirane

Mailegri (talk) 07:01, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

References

New Sections

Hello, I am a student editor of this article and will be adding new sections (mostly scholarly debates concerning the goddess) in hopes to better expand and improve this article. You may refer to my sandbox on the new material I will be adding: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User:Mailegri/amaterasu_drafting This may take a couple of days to completely transfer everything over. Thank you, Mailegri (talk) 04:11, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Removing of seemingly "Scholarly debates" with only one source

Hi, I have removed the seemingly "Scholarly debates" section that comes from only one source with no secondary sources to support this claim. FelixLadd (talk) 08:42, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposed Additions and Changes/Project for School

Hello, Wikipedia! I thought that this article, while it has a great start, still needs more information from different references. So, I thought I could help this article out by adding more information from different sources that I've found. In particular, I added a subsection to mention different shrines that aren't from Japan. In addition, though, I wanted to mostly focus on the connections that Amaterasu has to other forces of nature like typhoons, the sea, and death. In order for that to happen, though, I would need to change the organization of the /Worship/ section and the /More Information/ section. I was also planning on changing the tone to be a little more reader friendly.

I'll be working on this for about a month, so if you have any suggestions or complaints, feel free to contact me!

--Zealora (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Zealora, the source you cite mentions Meiji Jingū (明治神宮) as one example of four new types of Shinto shrines built, among other things, overseas Shinto shrines (Kaigai jinja 海外神社). They do not convey the consequence "Meiji Jingū is an overseas Shinto shrine." FelixLadd (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Contest with Susanoo

Regarding the Kami-birthing contest of sincerity, the article states: "After Susanoo's defeat he went on a rampage destroying much of the heavenly and earthly realm, including Amaterasu's rice fields; he also hurled a flayed pony at her loom, and killed one of her beloved attendants in a fit of rage."

However, whether Susanoo was defeated or the victor seems disputed between sources. In the Kojiki, it is told that Susanoo wins the contest, by birthing female Kami, and is a "sore winner" and goes on his rampage in gloating. My impression is that, as the first written source of the story, the Kojiki account is a fairly definitive one, and should at least be mentioned as equal to the account in which Susanoo is defeated.

Should the article be changed to reflect this?

Eckmann88 (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Better image

The image at the top is honestly not the best image of Amaterasu. I suggest we change it to a better image, one that is more clear and focuses more on her. CycoMa (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 15 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mailegri. Peer reviewers: Jmkuba.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2019 and 15 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zealora. Peer reviewers: Miles at UofU, Fordhuntington1.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Amaterasu

Why is she important 152.32.107.145 (talk) 08:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)