Talk:Alok Vaid-Menon

Criticism

Text proposal

Alok has faced criticism because of the following excerpt from a post they had made on the Facebook page of DarkMatter (an art and activist collaboration with Janani Balasubramanian):

These days the narrative is that freaky transgender people (or as they say "crossdressers") will come into your bathrooms and abuse innocent little girls.

This type of legal/carceral culture relies on is two things: the construction of morally abhorrent perpetrators/scapegoats AND the production of pure, innocent victims. In this case, as in so many cases in the past, those victims are archetypical (white)(cis) innocent little girls. We totally need to challenge the white Christian supremacist, right-wing rhetoric around trans bodies, absolutely. But we also need to seriously need to overhaul the idea that there is a perfect victim anywhere.

I believe in the radical notion that little girls, like the rest of us, are complicated people. There are no fairy tales and no princesses here. Little girls are also queer, trans, kinky, deviant, kind, mean, beautiful, ugly, tremendous, and peculiar. Your kids aren't as straight and narrow as you think they are. Like everybody else. I've been a cute little girl. And a gender nonconforming young adult. Let me tell you, everywhere along that spectrum, I've been complicated and strange.

That's a single source that may not meet WP:RS guidelines. Have any other sources? OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 20:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's a blog post from 2017 — "The Politically Correct Defense of Gender Identity is Concealing Much Worse", which links to a thread from 2016 on DataLounge (an Internet forum, whose core community of predominantly anonymous posters share news, opinions, gossip, personal histories, and political views from a gay and lesbian perspective). It also has a link to the apology Alok had posted afterwards which has now been deleted.

Here's an article from 2021 published in The Jewish Voice — "Twitter Blacklists Former GOP Candidate Lauren Witzke for Condemning Sexualization of Minors", which talks about Alok's statements. RT has written about it too — "Ex-Republican Senate candidate Witzke banned from Twitter after calling trans activist ‘DEMONIC’ ".

See the 'Controversy' section. Yuyutsu Ho (talk) 11:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Those are all rather partisan sources. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I've removed the controversy section as it lacked a reliable secondary source about Alok Vaid-Menon (coverage of Lauren Witzke getting banned on Twitter belongs in her article, not here), and per the biographies of living persons policy such a source is required here. WP:CSECTION and the policy on undue weight are also relevant here. GreenComputer (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Under "Publications" can you please add Alok's most recent self-published book:

Your Wound, My Garden (2021)

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/04/style/alok-vaid-menon-artist-nonbinary-poet-activist.html

Tamieparkersong (talk) 15:32, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done Spencer^T•C 06:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 January 2023

Unless written by or quoted from Alok Vaud-Menon, please remove the word ‘perceived’ from the following: “Their artistry responds to perceived violence against trans and gender non-conforming people, calling for freedom from constraining gender norms.”

Thank you. 2001:569:5815:7500:54B7:91C:251D:4AE (talk) 13:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done: As much as removing "perceived" might involve the assumption that this artist's views corresponds to facts, including it creates the insinuation that violence against gender non-conforming people is purely imaginary. small jars tc 15:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2023

It is not true and violates the guidelines of wikipedia to state the following:

"Growing up, Alok was bullied for their race and gender expression.[8]"

if you go to the link, no where in the line does it say bullying took place. If this is not removed as well as other incorrect statements, this will be reported to Wikipedia to censor the author. Rikochetrt (talk) 04:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The source provided does support that statement. From the source:

Some of my earliest memories were my classmates commenting on how strange/wrong/ugly/smelly my people were. We’re talking at four years old being told: ‘Why don’t you wash your body, so that brown dirt can come off?’
Rather than being a site of refuge and comfort, the Indian community became one of the fiercest spaces of gender policing. As a response to racism my community responded with heteronormativity – ‘maybe if we don’t look or act different they will leave us alone.’

Tollens (talk) 06:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Rikochetrt: You mention 'other incorrect statements', could you please specify exactly which statements you are referring to? Tollens (talk) 06:31, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Rikochetrt: i tagged it with the failed verification tag because the citation indeed does not make that claim. .usarnamechoice (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@.usarnamechoice: I'm confused – I pointed out above where it does? Tollens (talk) 19:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Growing up, Vaid-Menon was bullied for their race and gender expression.[failed verification]

THIS FAILED VERIFICATION. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE TO SUPPORT THIS. I EVEN TRIED TO SEARCH THE NET. DO NOT SPREAD FALSE TALES. 47.37.82.97 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I copied the text directly from the source – how does it not support it? Tollens (talk) 05:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The cited source doesn't used the word "bullying" specifically, but does speak of "constant erasure, invalidation, and hostility" in addition to the quoted passages above. Funcrunch (talk) 05:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I suppose it doesn't use the word "bullying" specifically. It does seem a perfectly good word to summarize the specific words used in the source, however – though if we really want to use a quote by all means go for it. Tollens (talk) 05:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with "bullying" as a summary/paraphrase of the subject's quotes in the cited article. Funcrunch (talk) 06:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

it is a characterization of the claims made by Vaid-Menon. to call it bullying is original research which is not permitted per policy. as i understand it, it is more acceptable to paste the quotes from Vaid-Menon than to characterize them as bullying. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

@.usarnamechoice: Paraphrasing isn't original research – if that was the case then every article wouldn't meet that policy. It isn't as if the only two options are original research and copy-pasting in the sources. Is there a different term you'd rather use instead of 'bullying'? Providing the exact quote in this case seems unnecessary. Tollens (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistent name convention

The article goes back and forth between referencing the subject as "Vaid-Menon" and "Alok". Aside from the initial full name listing, as well as the mention of how their first name is stylized, shouldn't all other references should be to "Vaid-Menon"? 2603:8001:2A00:7428:B8BC:5BD3:A724:EEAA (talk) 02:20, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn’t all references instead be changed to ALOK, as that is the preferred moniker of the subject? 2601:410:200:6CA0:5505:5A36:C5BD:8D68 (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2024

Alok states in Season 3, Episode 2 of Finding Our Way podcast by Prentis Hemphill that they would like to be referred to as "Alok and their friends are becoming" in reference to writings about Alok on Wikipedia. They do not desire to be referred to as "Alok is" as they describe that they are because of their friends. Steffenmichelle76 (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done While the MOS:GENDERID policy states that we use the subject's preferred pronouns, there aren't provisions for including mentions of their friends or anyone else every time the subject is mentioned. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Undergraduate reference

I've been trying to check the Stanford reference that says "Alok attended Stanford University where they graduated with a BA in feminist, gender, and sexuality studies", but it just links to the The Program in Feminist, Gender, and Sexuality Studies (or "FGSS") at Stanford, but doesn't say whether the degree was a major, minor etc. The actual BA isn't described in the bio. I've tried searching on Google, but just go around in circles. Anyone seen a precise reference, maybe in an interview or something? Seaweed (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I found an article in Vogue India that says Alok "graduated from Stanford University with a BA in women’s and gender studies and a MA in sociology". Funcrunch (talk) 18:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, this article on Stanford University's site says that Alok graduated in 2013 from the Center for Comparative Studies in Race and Ethnicity. Funcrunch (talk) 18:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Just added both of the above citations to the article. Funcrunch (talk) 19:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2024

1. 1. 1. There is typing error in Vaid-Menon name :

1. 1. 1. Original###

Vaid-Menon asserts that beauty can be a cruel arrangement of rules that must be followed. In “Fashion's Genderless Future”, Vaid-Menon examines what needs to be done to normalize respect for non-binary and LGBTQ+ fashion and “degender the fashion community” (Menon, M.10:00 min), making gender neutrality in fashion about creating possibility and not all about gender. Valid-Menon has also written a book of reasons why people should view gender as more than the traditional black and white. In “Beyond the Gender Binary”, they state, “The gender binary is cultural belief that there are only two distinct and opposite genders: man and woman. This belief is upheld by a system of power that exists to create conflict and division, not to celebrate creativity and diversity” (page.1). Vaid-Menon's main goal is to transform and challenge people to see beyond male and female genders.

1. 1. 1. PROPOSED CHANGE, from "Valid-Menon" to "Vaid-Menon"###

Vaid-Menon asserts that beauty can be a cruel arrangement of rules that must be followed. In “Fashion's Genderless Future”, Vaid-Menon examines what needs to be done to normalize respect for non-binary and LGBTQ+ fashion and “degender the fashion community” (Menon, M.10:00 min), making gender neutrality in fashion about creating possibility and not all about gender. Vaid-Menon has also written a book of reasons why people should view gender as more than the traditional black and white. In “Beyond the Gender Binary”, they state, “The gender binary is cultural belief that there are only two distinct and opposite genders: man and woman. This belief is upheld by a system of power that exists to create conflict and division, not to celebrate creativity and diversity” (page.1). Vaid-Menon's main goal is to transform and challenge people to see beyond male and female genders. Pineault.jonathan (talk) 11:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Typo fixed; thanks for pointing it out. Funcrunch (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

References