Talk:Al-Eizariya

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Fork

I've forked the information about the modern village to al-Eizariya per the concerns raised by User:Al Ameer son and the way we generally separate between biblical places and the modern communities associated with them. Tewfik^Talk 04:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC) Bethany is a brilliant name aswell[reply]

Etymology

I haven't read Dixon's book, which is cited in the etymology section of the article, but I feel pretty confident that the "one Lightfoot" referred to there is Joseph Barber Lightfoot, one of the most distinguished British biblical scholars of the nineteenth century; if so, it would be good to give the link. However, I'm unwilling to make the change without seeing Dixon first. Maybe the original author of this section could check? Thanks. Mscprm (talk) 11:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Error in Aramaic proper name given for village Bethany

It was long surmised by scholars that the name of Bethany meant literally "House of a poor man," which is translated in Aramaic: בית עניא. However, recent scholarship has affirmed that that surmised appellation was a misnomer, and that its original name was, in fact, ביתייני (Beith-yanei), just as it appears in rabbinic literature of the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE. The town's old Hebrew name appears in several ancient Hebrew works, one of which being the Tosefta (Shevi'it 7:14). Compare: Marcus Jastrow, Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature, 2nd edition, Massachusetts USA 2006, s.v. היני (p. 348) ISBN 1-56563-860-3 . I propose that we make the correction accordingly.Davidbena (talk) 22:52, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Historical questions like this are never completely solved and at most you should add another source and attribute its theory to its author. I'm not sure why you mentioned Jastrow's dictionary, as it has Beth Hini with a reference to an even older source (Neubauer) who expressed doubts about it. Zero^talk 05:35, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Jastrow uses היני (i.e. בית היני) as his main lead, based on a name of this kind in the Babylonian Talmud, but, still, the vast majority of renditions in our more ancient texts of the Tosefta has the spelling as I have brought down, viz. ביתייני, with one version adding the plene scriptum, ביתיאני, which, phonetically speaking, is the same as ביתייני. Perhaps we should just mention its alternative spellings, since in either case, the rabbinic editions mentioned in Jastrow do not even come close to the dubious spelling of בית עניא. ---Davidbena (talk) 06:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would be best if you bring a source making these observations. It isn't just a matter of looking in the primary sources, since there is also the question of identification. Zero^talk 06:20, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to your directives, I will search for a source which makes the same observations as mine. That's fair enough.Davidbena (talk) 07:02, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zero, shalom. I have found the sources that you requested. One is in "Neubauer's Geography" (Adolphe Neubauer, La Géographie du Talmud, Paris 1868, pp. 149 – 150), where we read the following:

“Les Talmuds rapportent que les boutiques de Beth Hini furent détruites trois ans avant Jérusalem. Ces boutiques se trouvaient probablement sur le mont des Oliviers, et Beth Hini serait alors identique avec le Bethania de l’Évangile. Les Talmuds ajoutent que les figues de Beth Hini mûrissaient plus tôt qu’ailleurs et que les figuiers disparurent par suite du siége de Jérusalem. Ces fruits ont pu donner le nom à l'endroit Beth-Phagué, place par les Évangiles à côté de Bethania. On veut identifier Bethania avec le village actuel d’el-Azarieh, habité par des musulmans et des chrétiens.”

(Translation: “The Talmud reports that Beth Hini shops were destroyed three years before Jerusalem. These shops were probably on the Mount of Olives, and Beth Hini would be identical with Bethany of the Gospel. The Talmud adds that the figs of Beth Hini ripened earlier than elsewhere and that fig trees disappeared as a result of the siege of Jerusalem. These fruits have given the name to the place Beth-Phagi, a place according to the Gospels near Bethany. We would identify Bethany with the present village of el-Azarieh, inhabited by Muslims and Christians.”)

Elsewhere, we find another reference to the same in one of the JSTOR journals, "Monatsschrift für Geschichte und Wissenschaft des Judentums," in a German article translated as "Remarks about the geography of ancient Palestine," written by Samuel Klein in 1910, where we read on pages 18 and 19 the following:

"Bet-Hini or Bet Jani. Es ist seit Neubauer (Geogr. 147ff.) mehrmals behauptet worden, daß unter Pagi Bet Hini (so Babli in den Parallelstellen) (oder בית ייני, auch בית יאני), die in der Tosefta Schebiit VII, 14 (ed. Zuckerm. 71, 30) gleich nach der im vorigen Punkte behandelten Halacha, genannt werden, die “unreifen Feigen von Bethanien”, des aus den Evangelien bekannten Ortes neben Jerusalem, zu verstehen seien."

(Translation: “Beth Hini or Bet Yannei. It (i.e. the designation) has been since Neubauer (Geogr. 147ff.) claimed several times that (so is the Babylonian Talmud in the parallel passages) under פגי בית היני [Pagei Bet-Hini] (or בית ייני even בית יאני), which in the Tosefta [Sheviit 7:14] (ed. Zuckerm. 71, 30) are equal, according to what is treated in the previous points of Halacha, which are called the "unripe figs of Bethany," the well-known place from the Gospels near to Jerusalem.”) You can access the journal here: Journal on JSTOR. The author goes on to write: "Curiously, this statement is confirmed by a note in the Bablylonian Talmud (Hullin 53a), where רב דימי (Rab Dimmi) had come from Palestine to Babylonia, reporting on an event that had occurred במרחץ של בית היני "in the bath of Beth Hini." Beth Hini בית היני is, as we saw above, the Babylonian form of the Palestinian ביתינאי (Beit Yannai) or ביתייני (Bet Yanei)."Davidbena (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, David. Klein's article is visible for free here (a site which really makes me wish I'd learnt German better). In my limited understanding, I'm not sure that Klein supports your position. In his second paragraph, he writes that Fenner in ZDPV concluded that Bethany and Beit Hini cannot be the same since the the grapes would in fact ripen in the opposite order to what that identification would imply. I don't see where he attempts to refute Fenner. Rather, in his long final paragraph he writes that Beit Hini has to be sought in Samaria and the part "Curiously, this statement is confirmed.." which you cite is in reference to that idea and not in reference to Bethany=Beit Hini. However my German is crap and I could be misreading.

Another source is this 1912 paper, see most of page 14. Burkitt concludes that the question cannot be decided either way. See footnote 4 there, too (page 180 in this later edition).

I'm never happy when the only sources we can find that discuss a question are more than 100 years old. We certainly should not refer to such writers as "modern scholars". Also, even if the scholarly consensus was that Bethany=Beit Hini, which it isn't, we would not be allowed to conclude by ourselves that Beit Hini is the original form. The Greek form Bethania is known from sources older than any Hebrew/Aramaic source for Beit Hini, so a causal connection might well be the other way around. Zero^talk 03:23, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably right on not relying too much on sources one-hundred years old. I do recall, though, that Jastrow takes the same view that Beit Hini is Bethany, and that it is sometimes spelt ביתייני. I'll try to find a more recent source. Thanks.Davidbena (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just found this (page 110), arguing against Beth Hini. We need to at least mark the theory as subject to dispute. Zero^talk 04:06, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While it is true that in Greek there is no "H" sound, as in "Hallelujah," and would therefore be written with an "alpha", as in "Alleluia," this presents no problem with the Hebrew/Aramaic spelling of בית היני (Beit Hini), and why the Greek word for "Bethany" doesn't show there an "alpha" instead of the usual "H" for "Hini." In the Palestinian-Hebrew dialect, both "aleph" and "He" ("H") were often dropped from the word, as in "Yuda" for יהודה, and as in "Markal" for אמרכל, etc., etc. Bethany in Hebrew, בית היני, may have simply been pronounced "Bet'ny."Davidbena (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Greek pronunciation

The article gives the Greek name and prounciation of the name as Greek: Βηθανία, Greek pronunciation: [vi.θa.ˈɲa]. Does this represent someone's judgment about the probable Koine pronunciation of the name at some particular time or is it just there because it's the modern Greek pronunciation? I checked the pages for a few other Near Eastern locations with New Testament significance (http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Emmaus, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Tarsus,_Mersin, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Pool_of_Bethesda, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Bethsaida) and there's not a consistent usage. Thoughts? KASchmidt (talk) 22:14, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

old (2011) vandalism

diff, inserted blatantly, into a 1907 quote, in italic boldface, front and center. How was it possible for this to sit there for seven years uncorrected? --dab (𒁳) 10:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

The current material at Bethany duplicates the material here at Bethany (biblical village) since a removal of dab material. Bethany should be merged with this article and that title should be restored as a dab page (with the material from Bethany (disambiguation)). Any thoughts? — AjaxSmack 04:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely a duplication. Bethany (biblical village) is the more comprehensive entry. Curious about the name, though - Bethany says it means "place of resurrection" (uncited) while Bethany (biblical village) says "house of misery/poverty", with an entire section on the etymology. "Place of resurrection" is far too convenient; more likely that meaning came about AFTER the resurrection of Lazarus.152.51.56.1 (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra and Al Ameer son: can either of you explain why we ended up with two forked articles here? The long-gone user Tewfik wrote that he forked the articles in 2007 after a discussion with Al Ameer son, which I can’t find. And Huldra has the honor of being the primary contributor to the al-Eizariya article.

A quick review of New Testament places associated with Jesus suggests that our treatment here is not consistent with other such places where there is a single location that is strongly favored by the academic and religious communities (e.g. Bethlehem / Nazareth / Mount of Olives / Calvary / Bethsaida / Capernaum), rather than Cana / Bethabara where the location is not settled. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Oncenawhile: So long ago, I don't even remember discussing this, let alone why, though I thanked Tewfik on his talk page in 2007 for translating the page (or adding an Arabic or Hebrew translation to the page; see Talk:Tewfik/Archive 7). I cannot find any other discussion thread, neither on this article's talk page nor Talk:Al-Eizariya, nor the user talk pages of Tewfik or myself or the edit summaries of this article and al-Eizariya. Your reasoning for merging the two articles generally makes sense, though. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oncenawhile: I am not quite sure I understand you: Bethany (biblical village) has been a redir to Bethany for quite a while; are you asking why there are two articles: Bethany and al-Eizariya? Huldra (talk) 20:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: yes exactly, it doesn't seem consistent to have Bethany and al-Eizariya as separate articles. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Onceinawhile:: I really don't have any strong opinion here: there seems to be a lot of religious stuff in the Bethany article, and also that article seems a bit "messy", if you see what I mean. If you can merge Bethany into the al-Eizariya article, without messing up the al-Eizariya -article too much: yeah, go ahead, Huldra (talk) 22:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK thanks Huldra. It seems from the above that we have consensus on this – I will go ahead and please feel free to revert if you disagree with the implementation. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Al-Eizariya which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]