Talk:Abul-Abbas

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Untitled

This entry has a lot of errors. Starting with the ones I know: Isaac was a Jewish merchant, not a mahout, and was part of Charlemagne's embassy to Baghdad. Is there any evidence he was North African?

I have not been able to find any sources that suggest that Abul-Abbas joined Charlemagne in any battle against Godefrid. As I recall, Charlemagne had to turn back from an expedition against Godefrid because of bad weather or ill-health, and Godefrid was then assassinated by his son.

In addition, the accounts of Claudius' triumphal games at Colchester clearly state that an elephant was sent from Rome. So Abul-Abbas was probably the second elephant in northern Europe. Someone should review all this and make the nec. changes. Hornplease 20:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Legends and Chess Pieces

I have heard, unsourced, that a set of chess pieces was made after the elephant's death, and that some, not the complete set, remain. If true, this should be sourced and noted. If not, the legend should be mentioned as such. NB, if they exist, DNA would settle the question of African or Asian elephant. Cyranorox (talk) 18:37, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing and unreliable information

I tracked down Scholz's English translation of the annales regni francorum (ARF) previewable on Google, and tried to see if the article's content squared with it. I found two factual errors, which used to be correct in earlier versions but were errorized by:

Edit as of 13:08, 12 April 2009‎ by Lockridge625 (talk · contribs) that changed landing spot from Porto Venere -> Genoa.
Edit as of 08:03, 25 April 2009‎ by Davewild (talk · contribs) that changed the arrival date from 20 July -> 1 July.

Lockridge625 was a one time account that edited this article and went inactive, and this user introduced Sypeck's book which charts a course through that I think is speculative ~~and which I've tagged and added a dotted line over~~. I can't seem to find other writings corroborating it except perhaps novel (Halter, Marek (1987). The book of Abraham. Dell. pp. 183–5.) which seems to refer to the elephant "Abdul Aziz" (not so sure, since only viewable snippet). --Kiyoweap (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a piece by Grewe and Pohle, "Der Weg des Abul Abaz von Bagdad zu Aachen" of which it has been remarked "Based on accounts in the Annales regni Francorum, the A.[article?] reconstructs the route of Isaac the Jew and the white elephant, Abul Abbas, the gift from caliph Harun al-Rashid to Charlemagne, from Bagdhad to Aachen. The motives for Issac's particular route from Baghdad to Carthage, via ship from Carthage to Protovenere (near Genoa, and north via Vercelli and St. Bernard's pass to Aachen, are illuminated (I. D.) |2683" according to Medioevo latino XXV (2004), p.336.[1] So I am going to assume Sypeck is also giving no more than a reconstructed/speculated route. The wiki article formerly said "Isaac set sail with Abul-Abbas from the city of Kairouan" but Kairouan which was the Ifriqiyan capital does not appear to be a port, being far from the sea. So I rewrote this bit to say "set sailed from a port, possibly Carthage." --Kiyoweap (talk) 07:05, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I moved most of what seem later invention under the section /*Later legends and writings*/, but all the spurious seeming material there needs to be rectified and sourced. --Kiyoweap (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Albino and Indian elephant fiction?

After some internet searching, I've come to the conclusion that the albino ("white elephant") claim is spurious (I've identified a review article where the reviewer says this claim is a "slip" because he knows no evidence of it.) Also the claim about it being definitely an Indian elephant over the possibility of African, I refuted (after Kistler, War Elephants, p.187).

If "We know very little about the elephant" (Kistler) is true, all the specifics given in Dembeck's (over forty years old, rheumatism, pneumonia, its handlers taking him to Münster, etc.) must be fictitious. Annales regni Francorum and other historical texts certainly don't provide this level of detail. Or is there an accretion of legends around the elephant that squares with what Dembeck writes? --Kiyoweap (talk) 08:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Kiyoweap: I have just added a contemporary or near-contemporary depiction of an elephant's head from the Frankish heartland which is realistic enough to suggest that the artist had seen one, presumably Abul-Abbas. It is also realistic enough to appear distinctly Asian. Srnec (talk) 00:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Srnec:, honestly to me, the manuscript drawing looks more realistically to me like a baby elephant composited with a full adult set of tusks.

And realistic-lookingness is hardly solid evidence that this scribe saw an animal that was alive, as he could have sketch a life-like from a dead elephant, a pelt. It remains only speculation that this picture represents Abul-Abbas. --Kiyoweap (talk) 13:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]