Talk:1951 Italian Grand Prix

Gordini #50

According to Steve Small's Grand Prix Who's Who and the incredibly well researched OldRacingCars (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.php?RaceID=I51) Trintignant was taken ill and Behra raced the car instead (being part of the Gordini F2 team and having driven an F1 example at Albi). Those're probably the two most reliable sources out there for this sort of thing; Lang and Motorsport both say Trintignant but both make mistakes on occasion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.106.50 (talk) 15:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Like stated here it seems that Behra drove the No. 50 in the race in place of Trintignant. Trintignant qualified the car but got ill and was replaced for the race by Behra. StatsF1 states that Gordini did not report this to the race organaizers as they would have lowered the starting bonus. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Here's a list of sources what various sources say:

Behra	StatsF1, OldRacingCars, MotorsportMagazine
Trintignant	ChicaneF1, Formula1.com, GrandPrix.com, results.motorsportstats.com

Given that well the researched OldRacingCars webiste and the long running and reliable magazine MSM list Behra as the driver of the race I would say the are correct. If anyone has more info on this it would be very welcome. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

FORIX and Paul Sheldon's A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing Vol 5 also only list Trintignant, with no mention of Behra. While it seems likely (to me) that Behra actually did drive the car, it's hard to know what to do here; if Gordini did not report the replacement to the organisers, it's probable that the official race results (i.e. as published by the organisers at the time) list Trintignant as having driven the car. MSM's profile of Jean Behra says he was never officially credited with the start ("His first appearance in the World Championship was in the 1951 Italian GP when a secret replacement for the unwell Maurice Trintignant. He wore his compatriot’s helmet to disguise the switch and was never officially credited with the start.") DH85868993 (talk) 01:41, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

@DH85868993, Usually I would follow the official results, but since it is obvious Behra drove in the race I would prefer to list the results like it actually happend. The opinion on this might differ so I've brought this up at WT:F1. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 18:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I think what would be best is to list Behra in the results, but then definitely mention either with a note or somewhere in the report that there was indeed, as MSM puts it, a "secret driver change" (giving the reference of course!). A7V2 (talk) 00:54, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

That's fine by me. And obviously we'd need to also update all the related articles accordingly. DH85868993 (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I updated the 1951 Italian GP and the 1951 F1 season accordingly. I was about to update the driver stats when I noticed a slight problem. Should we update the driver's number of race starts/entries? or should we add a note that states why Behra is not officially credited with the race start en Trintignant is. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:12, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I suggest doing the following:

• Add the race into Behra's F1 results table, with a footnote
• Leave Behra's number of entries as 53 (since he wasn't entered for the race)
• Leave Behra's number of starts as 52 but add a footnote saying that he physically started the race but wasn't officially credited with a start (can use MSM as a reference)
• Change the result in Trintigant's F1 results table to "DNS"
• Leave Trintigant's number of entries as 84 (because he was still entered for the race)
• Decrease Trintignant's number of starts from 82 to 81, with a footnote

But I'm open to other suggestions, e.g. increasing Behra's number of starts to 53, with a footnote. I was trying to think of similar situations and probably the closest is the 1977 German Grand Prix, where Hans Heyer started illegally despite failing to qualify. In that case, Heyer's infobox says "Entries: 1 (no legal starts)" but List of Formula One driver records says "Entries: 1, Starts: 1", with a footnote. Note that I'm not saying what we currently have done for Heyer is necessarily correct, just documenting it for comparison. DH85868993 (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I think this should be fine. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 22:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I added a note to both driver pages and hopefully I explained the situation well enough if not then a correction is certainly appreciated. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it is necessary to clarify that their participation is not in the official results. It seems necessary because the list is named without respecting the official result. Formula1.com Motorsport Magazine. --Adriel 00 (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)