Talk:İsmet İnönü

Name?

For non-turkish the whole naming deal is difficult to understand. What was his given name? Miralay İsmet? If so, it should be included, together with the name change. Also, in some parts the "bey" title is also used. Can somebody elaborate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leus (talk • contribs) 13:07, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Comment

"...İnönü served for ten years as leader of the opposition before returning to power after the coup of 1960."

He returned in what function and untill when?--Cigor 12:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Prime Minister. For 4 years, I believe, until 1965. Aaрон Кинни (t) 01:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Quoting: "According to Wikipedia in French, Inönü was responsible for a 1942 tax that especially hit Jews and Christians, refused to allow Rumanian Jews refuge in Turkey, put his face on coins and stamps, made the posting of his picture in schools and government offices obligatory, and enjoyed the official title of Milli Sef, i.e. boss of the nation." The part of the article which adds this information has been reduced to the phrase about 'Milli ,Sef' on Oct 7,08: I am not sure whether it should be restored or not since no reference to source is given apart from 'fr.wikipedia'Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Kurd or not?

Was İnönü Kurdish or not? Or was he just born in a Kurdish area? If either is the case, it needs to be recorded as a fact and not edited out. Folks at 137 11:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no clear argument which proves that Inonu was of Turkish or Kurdish ethnicity. But if you ask my opinion, he was a Turkish man. Kaygtr 00:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's good that we don't ask for your opinion. If anyone has a good source showing his ethnicity then please edit it here. Ozgur Gerilla 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, there is no source about Inonu's ethnicity. So the argument about his family should be deleted. --Kaygtr 17:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe some user can provide this source. But until then I think it will be right to delete the information about his ethnicity. Ozgur Gerilla 22:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Info about his ethnicity is deleted, since there's no evident information to prove the existence of his kurdish origins. Wikipedia is not the place to spread misinformation in order to push your political agenda. Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 16:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well actually republican people love İsmet Pasha but mild natiolists think he was unseccessful and extreme nationalists think that he was both unsuccessful and unproper (because he had a mixed identity). I have extreme ideals too but we can't blame him because of his parents. On the other hand he was not a good commander and he was not a talented leader (of course he was more talented than Tayyip Erdoğan :)). Deliogul 21:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

At least there should be an ackowledgement that this point is in dispute. There is NO proof of Inonu's ethnicity. Some have attributed or made such claims without ANY proof. Such references are obviously bogus and not valid. Given the long-standing dispute here why is there an insistance in the article to remove even the word "claimed" which seemed like a reasonable compromise? Not to mention his mother or her family was from Bulgaria. The continuous reverts from one particular editor is looking like an edit war. There are ways to resolve it. Murat (talk) 18:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

İnönü's Kurdishness came from Kürümoğulları family of Bitlis. Takabeg (talk) 18:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

How? He has never written or spoken in Kurdish and never made any such claims as some others have done. These are claims at best. Is there a DNA test one takes for these? Highly disputed right here too, so even more inappropriate to present it as undisputed fact in the body of the article. Murat (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

You appear to have problem reading the English sources.

N. Pope, H. Pope, Turkey Unveiled: A History of Modern Turkey, Overlook Press, 1998, ISBN 1-58567-096-0, ISBN 978-1-58567-096-3, p.254 (... president of republic, including Ismet Inönü and Turgut Özal, had Kurdish blood. Several cabinet ministers in 1980s and 1990s had been Kurdish...

Romano, David, The Kurdish nationalist movement: opportunity, mobilization, and identity, (Cambridge University Press, 2006), 118; Despite his own Kurdish ancestry, Inonu had apparently embraced Ziya Gokalp's notions of Turkism, which allowed him to advance to the highest post of the new republic.

Erik Jan Zürcher, "The Young Turks – Children of the Borderlands?" (October 2002),"İsmet İnönü, was born in İzmir, but in a Kurdish family hailing from Malatya in Eastern Turkey..."

Do you need this translated? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Merci, Bear. Murat, Zürcher öyle diyorsa öyledir artık. Takabeg (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I repeat: What exactly makes him Kurdish? His name is Turkish. He has never spoken or written a single word of Kurdish. He has never claimed or stated that he is Kurdish. No one from his family has. He has in fact put down Kurdish rebellions rather harshly. So, what makes anyone here more of an expert on who the man is than himself? None of these sources indicate WHY he is Kurdish? Which one actually goes beyond stating it? Any proof or evidence in the form I stated above? His father was from Malatya, not the other half. Not everyone from Malatya is Kurdish. People seem to extrapolate too easily. Most important indicator though is what people say who they are. Inonu never said he was a Kurd. That seems definitive to me. At best one can he may have Kurdish ancestary, and that is what I have done. What part of all this is not clear? Murat (talk) 00:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

• About His name is Turkish. - "İsmet" is Arabic. "İnönü" is the name of place (maybe Turkish but I don't know the etymology of the word). Traditionally Arabic first names are also used in Turkey. According to Surname Law of 1934, family names must in Turkish language. "Abdullah" is Arabic, "Öcalan" is Turkish. "Recep" and "Tayyip" is Arabic, "Erdoğan" is Turkish. There is no direct relationship between names and ethnicities in Turkey.

So his name is not Kurdish

• About He has never spoken or written a single word of Kurdish. - We cannot know whether he spoke or wrote a single word of Kurdish Kurdish or not ?

So we have no proof he has ever uttered a single word or written one in Kurdish as far as we know

• About He has never claimed or stated that he is Kurdish. No one from his family has. - It's nessesary for him to claim. Kâmran İnan is also Kurdish descent, but I have never heard his claim. I think it's easy for us to find claims that "Kürümoğulları is ethnic Turkish descent." Because the Kurdishness was a kind of tabu in modern history of Turkey. On 8 December 1925. the Ministry of Education issued a circular banning the use of such divisive terms as Kurd, Circassian and Laz, Kurdistan and Lazistan. (Andrew Mango, "Atatürk and the Kurds", p. 20.) The regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état officially defined Kurdish as "Mountain Turkish".

So he has never ever identified himself as a Kurd, nor practiced any such culture as far as we know

• About None of these sources indicate WHY he is Kurdish? - We don't have any sources indicate why Tevfik Fikret is ethnic Turkish ?

So ALL sources cited do not go beyond simple claims. Irrespective of Tevfik Fikret's ethnic identity, we know he was a Turkish poet, and he never claimed to be an Eskiomo or an Indian for example or displayed any other traits than being Turkish.

• About His father was from Malatya, not the other half. Not everyone from Malatya is Kurdish. - Nobody said that those who came from Malatya are Kurdish.

So we know his father is from malatya, but he may not even be a Kurd himself

• About Inonu never said he was a Kurd. - Most of Kurds never said they were Kurd to the public, until the Kürt Açılımı (Kurdish overture, Kurdish opening, Kurdish initiative).

Anyway, our duty is neither to prove anything nor to deny anything, but to transfer information based on Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 02:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Our duty is to note that "some have claimed Kurdish ancestary". That is ALL we can really say. Dont you agree? Murat (talk) 03:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Murats post is a clear example of cherry picking. A clear indication of POV pushing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Well said, Takabeg. Here is another reference;

The Kurdish Mosaic of Discord, Nader Entessar, Third World Quarterly, Vol. 11, No. 4, Ethnicity in World Politics (Oct., 1989), pp. 93; "Even Ismet Inonu, Ataturk's long time ally and successor, was discouraged from revealing his Kurdish heritage.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The story of Ismet İnönü’s Armenian roots was corroborated by prominent historian Prof. Pars Tuglaci (Parsegh Tuglaciyan) (1933-2016), a family friend of İnönü.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.249.230.203 (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC) 

Turkish and Kurdish or Kurdish and Turkish :)

Neither. Armenian from Malatya, according to prominent historian Prof. Pars Tuglaci (Parsegh Tuglaciyan) (1933-2016), a family friend of İnönü That's great !!! Of course, we should be a bit patriarchal. Father comes first ! Meanwhile, my granduncle is an acquaintance of Erdal Inonu and they live in the same neighborhood. So, it's time to pay a visit to my granduncle.. :) So far as I know, Erdal Inonu is suffering from an illness, but if I will be able to have the opportunity to have conversation with him, I will ask some questions regarding our issue. About his father's native language and ethnic origins etc. Whenever I will get new information, I will share it here, but that can take a couple of weeks. Kizzuwatna 03:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe, I couldn't help myself. ;-) I would love to hear what he says, please keep us updated! —Khoikhoi 03:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Note: I actually reverted myself. —Khoikhoi 03:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That's quite true. Otherwise, everyone would understand vice versa. Anyhow, changing the sequence will not make him more Turkish or Kurdish. --Kizzuwatna 03:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course. —Khoikhoi 03:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand this effort to assign Kurdish blood to him. A statement that can be made for many Turks probably but what does it mean? The references given, three of them, make no such mention. Not surprising, since there is no official or technical definition of "being a Kurd". Mixed blood? How? Who and when? There is absolutlely no such information or any such statement form Inonu himself or his family. Who is pushing this and why? The fact that references are bogus seem to indicate a lack of good will.--Murat (talk) 02:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I have been in touch (indirectly) with members of the family. No one ever recalls any member of the Inonu family identifying themselves as "Kurdish", there is no such record or proof other than speculation due to one side of the family coming through Malatya. Now some here will claim to better than the family I am sure:)--Murat (talk) 13:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a 3rd party published source from you, just your personal opinion, again. Yet I see two references with quotes in the article, which you've continued to try to either remove[1] or weasel word[2] around. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

See the discussions above. All of it. No one was able to produce a reliable and reasonable proof of his ethnicity. No member of his family, including himself has ever made any such claim (unlike Ozal). People in touch with them, and I am not the only one, have already been told that there is no basis for such a claim. The article already explains that his mother was from Bulgaria, and thus it is already technically wrong to call him Kurdish. NONE of the references included offer ANY PROOF of his ethnicity, but only statements, as such they seem to be irrelevant. It is hard to understand the motivation for these racist arguments and fabrications, but then again, some are in the habit. Until someone brings up a real proof, such statements and claims do not belong here.--Murat (talk) 13:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems silly that the article says outright that he is of Kurdish descent when there is such flimsy proof for it. I agree that it should be removed or at the very least presented as a claim; a claim not given much seriousness in academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ortauygun (talk • contribs) 17:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Some of the article doesn't make a great deal of sense in English

I've edited it to be a little clearer where I understood what the article was trying to say. In other places I've had to leave it as it was, even though I don't think it makes sense, because I'm not sure what the article is trying to say. Notably:

"After World War I he passed the Anatolia to join the Turkish nationalist movement. After the default of Ali Fuat Cebesoy to organize the local Turkish rebellious troops, he became the general commander of the western Turkish army and remained in this position during the War of Independence."

I don't know what 'passed the Anatolia' means. Does it mean he travelled through the region of Anatolia?

"the default of Ali Fuat Cebesoy to organize the local Turkish rebellious troops" doesn't make sense to me either. Does it mean that Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to organize the local Turkish troops, so İnönü did it instead? Or what? In English, default usually means either an obligation which is unfulfilled, e.g. "to default on a loan", or something which happens because of inaction, e.g. "the default option". I've never seen "default" used in the way it is in this article, you can't have a default of a person; a person has to do the defaulting.

You could perhaps say Ali "defaulted on his obligation to organise the local Turkish troops", but I still don't think it's very good English. I think the article means something like: "after Ali failed to organise the local Turkish Turkish troops". Or perhaps, "When Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to rise to the challenge of organising the rebellious local troops, İnönü took the task on himself, and became the general commander of the western Turkish army, a position he remained in during the War of Independence." But it could also mean something like "After Ali Fuat Cebesoy failed to control the local Turkish rebellious troops, İnönü became the general commander..." It depends on whether Ali Fuat Cebesoy was a rebel himself who just wasn't very good at organising, or whether he was actually trying to stop the rebellion.

Not knowing enough about the subject, I'm asking someone who does know more about it to tidy up these sentences, please.

Thanks,

--Merlinme 16:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether Hamid ed-Din was leader of Rumelia or Yemen in the following sentence is unclear: “He won his first military victories by suppressing two major revolts against the struggling Ottoman Empire, first in Rumelia and later in Yemen, whose leader was Yahya Muhammad Hamid ed-Din.” Also, this sentence is a bit awkward: "He thus took over numerous private property under government control." Is it intended to state that "Thus, under his leadership, large amounts of private property was nationalized."? Pebblicious (talk) 01:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Negative points

I wish here, to relate two interesting—and little known—stories of roots.

A wealthy Armenian family lived in a village of Malatya in the 1880s. The region was terrorized and harassed by Kurdish tribesmen, who regularly raided Armenian villages. Eventually, Armenians started organizing defense forces by banding together fedayees (freedom fighters) to protect the Armenian villages. An Armenian fedayee leader once approached the head of this wealthy Armenian family and asked for money to buy weapons and horses. The wealthy Armenian said that he would decide in two days whether to comply with this request or not. After two days, the fedayee returned and the wealthy Armenian refused to give any money. The fedayee promptly shoots the man. The widow of the killed Armenian man fled with her newborn son to Izmir, where she converted to Islam and raised her son with utter hatred toward Armenians. That boy grew up to be Ismet İnönü (1884-1973), the second President of Turkey after Kemal Ataturk—and perhaps one of the worst enemy of the Armenians and other minorities in Turkey, after the Ittihadist (Young Turk) leaders.

İnönü brought forth legislation called the “Wealth Tax” in 1942 (Varlik Vergisi), ostensibly to help Turkey cope with the war economy, but with the intent of ruining the minorities. The taxes were assessed based on ethnic origin—the level of taxation with respect to total capital was 232 percent for the Armenians, 184 percent for the Jews, 159 percent for the Greeks, and only a mere 4.9 percent for the Turks. The payment deadline was 15 days and anyone who could not pay was arrested and sent to the eastern provinces to work as laborers in stone quarries, building roads or tunnels. This was, in effect, a wealth transfer from the minorities to the Turks.

Many Armenians, after selling all their assets at dirt cheap prices, went bankrupt and still could not raise the required amounts and ended up at labor camps and dying there. In 1964, İnönü further oppressed the Greeks, when he deported 45,000 of them who had dual Greek and Turkish citizenship during the Cyprus crisis. They were given ten days to leave behind all their properties, assets, and belongings to leave the country with the allowed $20 and 20 kg (45 lbs) of possessions.

According to Wikipedia in French, Inönü was responsible for a 1942 tax that especially hit Jews and Christians, refused to allow Rumanian Jews refuge in Turkey, put his face on coins and stamps, made the posting of his picture in schools and government offices obligatory, and enjoyed the official title of Milli Sef, i.e. boss of the nation.

Maybe this stuff should go into the English article.

We can even call him a dictator. You know, he didn't do anything to promote democracy (at least Atatürk tried it in even harder times of the country) and worse than all, he directly claimed to be the successor of Atatürk. He built a personality cult around Atatürk to stay in power and he was buried next to Atatürk in Anıtkabir (where he ordered the construction of... interesting detail). Then he waged war against Pan-Turkism in 1944. He was using Nazi Germany's torture devices on those people while he was discussing the position of Turkey with the Allies. It is disgusting but sadly similar to what had happened after Lenin's death. Stalin jumps on the memory of Lenin, he builds a temple to put Lenin's death body in, he creates photos to show the connection between him and Lenin and then finally he eliminates the people who are against him by showing the ideals of the country as the reason... Of course İnönü was much softer and silent than Stalin but their tricks are the same. See you, Deliogul 15:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

All this seems to be a lot of judging, subjective interperetation and analysis. He did not for example put his his face on money, treasury department did. He should be given a little more credit for keeping Turkey out of WWI (here it is told as if he did a terrible misdeed!), he should be given a bit more credit for ushering the multi-party rule and a little more credit for building the country and infrastructure. Maybe the axes should be ground somewhere else, even on the discussion page here, but let's keep the body of the article clean and objective.--Murat (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As to İsmet İnönü, there are approachs to define the İnönü period (Millî Şef dönemi ) as a dictatorship. On the other hand, The question whether Atatürk was a dictator was always a sensitive one in Kemalist Turkey.

cf. Censorship in Turkey, tr.wikipedia de.wikipedia (the Law on Crimes against Atatürk)

Category

User:Hudavendigar claimed rv to proper terminology and common use.. But this isn't issue on terminology. Category:Turkish military personnel of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922 is one of the subcategories of Category:Turkish military personnel of the Turkish War of Independence. As long as I know, İsmet Bey/Pasha participated in the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) as "military personnel". I can say İsmet that participated in whole of Turkish War of Independence as minister. When you find sources for proving Category:Turkish military personnel of the Turkish War of Independence, you (everyone) can put this category. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 03:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Kürümoğulları

His grandfather was Abdülfettah Efendi, and father was Reşit Efendi. They were members of Kürümoğulları family of Bitlis. His mother was Cevriye Hanım who was a member of a Turkish family of Razgrad.

According to Retired Tankist Senior Colonel Mehmet Atilla Kürümoğlu, who claimed that their family is Turkish in 2010, Kürümoğulları might come from Central Asia to the village of Kürüm of the district of Bağışlı in the Hakkâri Province. Semra Sezer, who is the former first rady (Ahmet Necdet's wife), is also a member of this family.

I think "from Central Asia to..." is fiction. Just like, the Balkan Turks' claims that they are Turkomans who came from Konya. According to İsmail Hami Danişmend, this was a traditional claim amang Balkan Turks.

İsmet Paşa Kürt mü? “Çok geçmişe gidilirse ne çıkacağını bilmiyorum. Babamın babası, Kürümoğullarından... Onlar da Kürt olduklarını söylemiyorlar. Ama Bitlisliler... Bitlis’te de tüm Kürtler birlikte yaşıyorlar. Dolayısıyla çok geriye gidilirse belki ortak cet ortaya çıkar. Ama babam da bu soruna yumuşak yaklaşırdı. Tabii isyan kabul etmezdi, ama herkesi 1. sınıf insan olarak görürdü.” In this interview, Erdal İnönü didn't say whether Kürümoğulları is Kurd or not ? His fathers didn't say that they are Kurdish. And Erdal İnönü mentioned to the possibility of common ancestor with Kurds in the past. Takabeg (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyway as to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, İsmet was a Kurdish descent. Because secondary sources says so.

Not really. He clearly does not say he is Kurdish. Leaves the possibility open. There is clearly no basis for the definitive statement "he is Kurdish". One can only point at the possibility. No need for secondary or other references once the man himslef has spoken about it.Murat (talk) 01:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In short, Identifying reliable sources >>> are much more important >>> than my/your/his/her/our/their POV. I think if you want, you can add infromation above. But Colonel Kürümoğlu cannot be regarded as third parties. Takabeg (talk) 02:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Then why not say "his father was claimed to be of Kurdish descent", or he was of Kurdish descent? This is very different than "he is Kurdish". For a man who has not spoken or written a single word of Kurdish and has never made any such claims? Murat (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Most of souces don't say "He was Kurdish". Sources say "He was Kurdish descent".

• N. Pope, H. Pope, Turkey Unveiled: A History of Modern Turkey, Overlook Press, 1998, ISBN 1-58567-096-0, ISBN 978-1-58567-096-3, p.254 (... president of republic, including Ismet Inönü and Turgut Özal, had Kurdish blood. Several cabinet ministers in 1980s and 1990s had been Kurdish...) - reference found in Turkish Wikipedia article]
• Romano, David, The Kurdish nationalist movement: opportunity, mobilization, and identity, (Cambridge University Press, 2006), 118; Despite his own Kurdish ancestry, Inonu had apparently embraced Ziya Gokalp's notions of Turkism, which allowed him to advance to the highest post of the new republic.
• Erik Jan Zürcher, "The Young Turks – Children of the Borderlands?" (October 2002)
• "Demek İsmet Kürttür. Hem de koyu Kürt! Biz bu heyetin başından Abaza diye Rauf’u attırdık. Türk diye bir halis Kürt getirmişiz, vah yazık!", Rıza Nur, Hayat ve Hatıratım: Rıza Nur-İnönü kavgası, Lozan ve ötesi, İşaret Yayınları, 1992, p. 235.
• "Even Ismet Inonu, Ataturk's long time ally and successor, was discouraged from revealing his Kurdish heritage.", Nader Entessar, "The Kurdish Mosaic of Discord", Third World Foundation, Third World Quarterly, Vol. 11, No. 4, Ethnicity in World Politics (Oct., 1989), Carfax Publishing Co., 1989, p. 93.

On 8 December 1925. the Ministry of Education issued a circular banning the use of such divisive terms as Kurd, Circassian and Laz, Kurdistan and Lazistan. The Turkish government traditionally followed the assimilation policy and regarded ethnic minorities in Turkey as Turks. Especially the regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état followed strict policies in favor of creating order inside of country. The regime of this coup d'état officially defined Kurdish people as the "Mountain Turkish".

So we can find many Turkish sources that refer Kurds as Turks. Even about Saladin.

Ismet Bey?

Is/was he also known as "Ismet Bey"?
From article: "When the 1934 Surname Law was adopted, Mustafa Kemal gave him a surname delivered from İnönü" -- and since he was [1884] "born to Reshid (Hacı Reşit Bey) and Djevriye (Cevrye Temelli Hanım)..."
Would this be the same person described in the Battle_of_El_Buggar_Ridge article: ..Ottoman forces at Beersheba under the command of Ismet Bey...

This appears to be so, according to this article: Turkey in the First World War / Who's who: Ismet -- However, this article is somewhat confusing, since it alternately refers to "Mustafa İsmet", "İsmet Bey", "İsmet Paşa (İnönü)", "İsmet Paşa", and "İsmet İnönü" -- All of which seem to be talking about the same person. If anybody understands this name-changing, please explain it in the article, and provide appropriate redirects and wikilinks to him from articles such as Battle_of_El_Buggar_Ridge. Thanks, ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 08:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Partly done: the links from (above) article are done, but redirects, etc. still need attention. ~Eric F 21:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 22:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Somebody who knows the subject should add something similar to:

His name at birth was Mustafa İsmet, and he was later known by the following titles:

• İsmet Bey (from / to dates + description)
• İsmet Paşa (from / to dates + description)
• İsmet İnönü (from / to dates + description)
  

~Thanks, Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 22:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in İsmet İnönü

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of İsmet İnönü's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Free":

• From One-party period of the Republic of Turkey: Freedom of the Press, Freedom of the Press 2010 Draft Report, p. 2. (in English)
• From Zilan massacre: Freedom of the Press, Freedom of the Press 2010 Draft Report, p. 2.

Reference named "Houston":

• From Racism in Turkey: Christopher Houston, Islam, Kurds and the Turkish nation state, Berg Publishers, 2001, ISBN 978-1-85973-477-3, p. 102.
• From One-party period of the Republic of Turkey: Christopher Houston, Islam, Kurds and the Turkish nation state, Berg Publishers, 2001, ISBN 978-1-85973-477-3, p. 102. Interview with Mehmet Pamak, who was the founder and president of Conservative Party (Muhafazakâr Parti) that was founded in place of Nationalist Action Party (Milliyetçilik Hareket Partisi) banned by junta regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état. Pamak is Kurdish origin and his family was exiled from Erciş to Çanakkale. (in English)
• From Zilan massacre: Christopher Houston, Islam, Kurds and the Turkish nation state, Berg Publishers, 2001, ISBN 978-1-85973-477-3, p. 102. Interview with Mehmet Pamak, who was the founder and president of Conservative Party (Muhafazakâr Parti) that was founded in place of Nationalist Action Party (Milliyetçilik Hareket Partisi) banned by junta regime of 1980 Turkish coup d'état. Pamak is Kurdish origin and his family was exiled from Erciş to Çanakkale.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Socialism

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2022 and 23 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): StinkyGremlin (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Stinky Gremlin (talk) 01:06, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Mistake?

"The signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact on 23 August 1939 drew Turkey away from the Allies; the Turks always believed that it was essential to have the Soviet Union as an ally to counter Germany, and thus the signing of the German-Soviet pact undercut completely the assumptions behind Turkish security policy." The Soviet Union was not apart of the Allies until 1941. Aaron106 (talk) 09:39, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Reversion of sourced content pertaining to İsmet's (possible) Armenian heritage

@Beshogur what is your reason for reversing sourced information? I will be reinstating the edit if I do not receive a reply within a day. 77.67.144.80 (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah maybe stop with nonsense put by Kadir Mısıroğlu fanboys. There is no such news about asking Armenian alphabet whatsoever. Beshogur (talk) 21:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Please assume WP:GOODFAITH . It is not nonsense, I used 2 sources and even included a quote for one which clearly states that the newspaper mentioned such an event.

Are you still refusing to reinstate the edit? 77.67.144.80 (talk) 21:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you read WP:FRINGE? First your sources are not WP:RS, secondly there is no such news in that newspaper. Beshogur (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It isn't a fringe theory, the ethnicity of İsmet İnönü is heavily debated as seen in the article. This is just another aspect to the debate, which I have sourced. Where is your proof that that the sources are not reliable and that there's no such news in the Günaydın newspaper, despite it being referred to in the source which I included a quote from? 77.67.144.80 (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Funny this topic has been put by two different persons on this talk page as well. Beshogur (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I checked this right now and they didn't source Pars Tuğlacı's position in the talk page, nor did they include this content in the article. Despite the information having been fully sourced, why have you reversed the edit? 77.67.144.80 (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Even if person claims that, it is full speculation as it's seen from the way he says, which makes it a fringe theory. Inönü's origin isn't debated except for Misiroglu fanboys. Your second source doesn't even have a page, probably copy pasted from somewhere else. First source is not a reliable source, there is no such news on the newspaper. Of course I will keep reverse nonsense. Beshogur (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean in the first sentence. As for İnönü's ethnicity, it's clearly debated in the article whether he was of Turkish, Kurdish, etc origin.

You are right that I forgot to add a page for the second source, though. After skimming through the book, I found the related page, and will add it after the dispute resolution. You have yet to prove that the first source is unreliable. It's a book from 1975 which details what that news said shortly after İnönü's death. You yourself just can't come to believe it, for some reason. You seem to deem sources you disagree with unreliable. 77.67.144.80 (talk) 07:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

If there is a book or books which seem to think he is probably part Armenian, it would be fine to mention that (but if there's not much writing on it, it doesn't need to be talked about extensively). Could you quote the passage from the book? I can't seem to find it. Chamaemelum (talk) 21:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

It's a conspiracy theory by Misiroglu fanboys. When you search it on google, you don't get any reputable source. Only forums, and a youtube video of an amateur pseudohistorian.

Turkish-Armenian historian Pars Tuğlacı had also posited that İsmet was at least partially an ethnic Armenian. posited? Source. I heard for the first time such claim about Inönü's ancestry. Isn't even worth mentioning even if the ip user has a page. Beshogur (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

"A significant news story appeared in the (06 - ANKARA) column of GÜNAYDIN newspaper shortly after İnönü's death. The author wrote, based on a firsthand account from Kemal SATIR who was at İnönü's bedside during his death, that İnönü's last words were the letters of the Armenian alphabet." The claims about the alphabet should not be provided as support for İnönü's heritage. However, it would be fine to include it without this claim.

"Satır did not confirm nor refute this reportage." This should not be included: no comment is the default.

"Turkish-Armenian historian Pars Tuğlacı had also posited that İsmet was at least partially an ethnic Armenian" seems like it would be fine to include because it is phrased in NPOV (states the person Pars Tuğlacı, says "posited", and "partially"). However, it would be nice to add a page number so we can see the context. I couldn't find it by searching etnik Ermeni in the book. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem is claim about the alphabet is not even true. For the book, I personally didn't check, but if you couldn't find anything, then there is nothing left to say. Also Pars Tuğlacı is a linguist, not historian I suppose. Beshogur (talk) 22:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Sources describe him as a historian or historical researcher. Do you have a source for saying the alphabet claim isn't true? I couldn't find anything, so it would be good to wait for the other editor to tell us the page he got it from. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Chamaemelum , thanks for your contributions. The alphabet 'claim' is fully sourced, I included the page and quote for that. I didn't state that it supported the idea he had Armenian heritage, if you read what I wrote I worded it carefully. I said that it "alluding to the possibility he may have been of Armenian descent." If your last words as one of the most renowned Turkish president, known as Atatürk's second-hand man, were reportedly the Armenian alphabet, then that should definitely be added.

As for Pars Tuğlacı's work where he said İnönü was an ethnic Armenian, I skimmed over it as I said previously but didn't really read it properly. I would have to read the book properly once again to find the exact page number. I do not know if I have enough time for this, though. If needed, that source can be removed, but the previous one is fully explained with a quote, which @Beshogur can't seem to accept as reality.

Regards. 77.67.144.80 (talk) 07:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The part of the statement about him reading the alphabet seems reliable enough. Chamaemelum (talk) 08:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. First the book isn't RS. Secondly it's not even true that the newspaper placed such news on that day. Beshogur (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

If the newspaper did not include it, then I would lean more towards not including the second claim in the article. It does seem to be parroted by non-reliable sources, but a non-biased book or newspaper would be better. Chamaemelum (talk) 09:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I personally checked the newspaper's front page, nothing there. I also searched some forums they either say he asked the Greek alphabet or the situation of the government. So very speculative topic that can't be verified. Nevertheless no other source mentions this. Beshogur (talk) 10:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you check the 06 - ANKARA column? I don't see a reason for it for it to have to be on the front page. Chamaemelum (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I couldn't find that. If you can find, feel free to add that. I'm not going to publish a speculative stuff here. Beshogur (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Chamaemelum, what's the agreement now? The claim was adequately sourced and it's up to @Beshogur to disprove that such a news article had been released since they're in denial. 31.142.75.60 (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Denial? Maybe stop spreading false and speculative information, they're "adequately sourced". There is no agreement. Beshogur (talk) 20:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Waiting for you to prove that the source is false and speculative. 31.142.75.60 (talk) 13:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

31.142.75.60, maybe you could show that it's not false and speculative--are there other reliable sources that claim the same or a similar thing? Or maybe there's an online copy of the newspaper, as Beshogur alluded to, that you could check? Chamaemelum (talk) 21:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

First maybe create an account and stop using different IPs. Secondly read WP:BURDEN, you must prove. Beshogur (talk) 23:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe because you didn't even read such a book. Also when I googled the first claim, I got the "source", where a youtube video (linked above) places the same exact quote. Probably got there the info? Beshogur (talk) 09:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)