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Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

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This article needs copy-editing and MoS help to get to FA. I don't know what to look for. Might also have larger issues as it has expanded a lot since reaching GA status. Wrad (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Awadewit

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Wow! There is so much good information on this page. I think, however, it could be arranged a bit more effectively and some repetitious information could be cut out. Here are my suggestions:

Larger issues:

  • I copy edited the article a bit as I was reading, but someone should copy edit it who is dedicated to that task (I was trying to review at the same time). I also don't know every line of the WP:MOS, but I could tell that there were some inconsistencies in the article itself and with the MOS. A day spent with the MOS or a MOS-guru could help out with this.
  • Can we get artists' names for the illustrations and dates, when possible?
  • Done
  • I have reduced the "Temptation and testing" section somewhat, but I still think this can be condensed some more. There is some repetition of ideas here and I think an organizational scheme based around the five tests might result in a more concise explanation.
  • We need a reason in the "Nature and chivalry" section as to why Woods and Green's interpretations are being contrasted. Clearly hundreds of scholars have written on these issues. Why are these two included in the article? Explain to the reader. This is a larger problem with the article as a whole. Scholars' names are quite prominent - is there a way to reduce this? For example, if you know that three major scholars agree on a reading, there is no need to mention their names - just put the citations all together in the notes. In my opinion, it is only when someone comes up with a distinctive interpretation that is always attributed to them in the scholarship should we mention their names (the Ingham looks like a good example) or when we are quoting (why we should try to quote sparely). This is a hard balance to achieve, but we want the poem and the interpretations to come though, not the scholars themselves.
  • Material from "The Green Knight" seems like it belongs under "Similar stories" - it seems like sections should be joined together somehow.
  • It seems that maybe the extensive description of the pentangle in "Temptation and testing" should go in the "Pentangle" section.
  • The poet of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight directly addresses the ideals of knighthood by including the symbol of the pentangle and a drawing, for example, of the pentangle, would suggest a symbol of infinity. In the poem, the first description of the pentangle is immediately before Gawain leaves to find the Green Knight, when he “showed forth the shield, that shone all red/ with the pentangle portrayed in purest gold.” The poet uses precisely 46 lines to describe the arming of Gawain’s equipment, revealing the underlying meaning of the pentangle. No other symbol in the poem gets as much attention or detail given to it. There is no passage as explicitly described as this one, as if the “poet wishes his words here to be read very closely,” because the pentangle is a conventional sign and not a natural one. A natural one has the same meaning for everyone, but a conventional sign would imply a deeper meaning, so that 46 lines would be necessary for its explanation. - I don't understand this paragraph.
  • The second paragraph of "Girdle" doesn't really make sense to me.
  • The "Wound" section can probably be cut down - it seems a bit repetitive.
  • There are a lot of unattributed quotes in "Romantic interpretation".
  • I did not feel that the "Romantic interpretation" section explained anything new. It seemed like it could be cut without any great loss. I understand that it is trying to show Gawain as a "romance hero" but it doesn't do this yet. Perhaps some of the current material should be cut and a little description of the genre of the romance should be included?
  • Might not the "Order of the Garter" material work as a subsection under the "Romantic interpretation" section?
  • The "Modern adaptions" section seems a little thin - what happened to the story between the medieval era and the twentieth century?
  • I can't seem to find this. I think I may be remembering things wrong, since it is a Cotton manuscript and those were well-known for quite a while. I rewrote the section a bit to make it less dry, but it really seems like all there is. Not much more to add...
  • References need help - not standardized at all.
  • The article seems to weave back and forth between AE and BE. Pick one and stick with it!

Smaller issues:

  • The manuscript is currently in the British Library. - I wonder if this is necessary to include in the lead? Currently, the sentence is just kind of hanging off a good introductory paragraph.
  • Alongside its advanced plot and rich language - I'm not quite sure what "advanced plot" is supposed to mean.
  • A later poem, The Greene Knight, tells essentially the same story as Sir Gawain, though the relationship between them is not clear. - I wonder if there is a way to work this reference more smoothly into the lead.
  • Does the Green Knight just pick up his head and ride off or does he place his head back on his body and ride off?
  • The Green Knight then reveals himself to be the lord of the castle, Bercilak de Hautdesert, and explains that the entire game was arranged by Morgan le Fay. - I think you have to explain a bit (just a phrase or two) who Morgan le Fay is.
  • one one-stress line rhyming a (the bob) and four three-stress lines rhyming baba (the wheel) - There has to be a better way to write this out - it is hard to follow when reading for the first time.
  • On the whole, the poem takes up 2530 lines, divided into four parts and 101 stanzas. - This sentence is just hanging off the end of the "Verse form" section - perhaps it should go elsewhere?
  • For example, like the Green Knight, Cúchulainn's antagonist feints three blows with the axe before letting him without injury. - missing word
  • Hunbaut has an interesting twist: Gawain cuts off the man's head, then pulls off the magic cloak keeping the man alive before he can replace his head, causing his death. - "interesting" could be viewed as POV
  • The Carle off Carlile also compares to Gawain in a scene in which the Carl, a lord, orders Gawain to strike him with his spear, and bends over to receive the blow. - something is off here
  • The typical temptation fable of the medieval period presents a series of tribulations assembled as tests or “proofs” of mortal virtue. - Is there a wikilink for any of this?
  • Through his journey in this tale, however, Gawain learns humility is a lesson that must be experienced at a level deeper than words can reach. - I don't quite follow this.
  • In the seduction scene, Bercilak's wife, like the boar, is a bit more forward, insisting that she knows that Gawain has a romantic reputation, and that she deserves a taste of it. - This is starting to sound a bit colloquial.
  • Both the boar and the seduction scene can be seen as depictions of a moral victory. - a moral victory over what precisely? we should be as explicit as possible
  • While Woods claims that nature provides stronger orders in the poem (a different kind of perfection), Richard Hamilton Green believes that the poet aims at the quest for chivalric perfection over nature. - What does "stronger orders" mean? Does this sentence mean that Green believes that the poem is about conquering nature with chivalry? It is not entirely clear.
  • The word gomen (game) is found 18 times in Gawain. Its relation to the word gome (man), which is in the poem 21 times, has led some scholars to connect them, possibly as a representation of man's fallen nature in the Christian sense. - Perhaps this could be explained a bit more?
  • Done I took out the Christian point. I want that section to focus more on game tradition and leave Christianity more to other sections, otherwise it will get repetitive. Wrad (talk) 05:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Times, dates, seasons, and cycles within Gawain are often noted by scholars. - This is a weak beginning to a section - why are they noted by scholars? Why are they significant? They sentence needs a "because" clase.
  • Imagery of inevitable fall is strengthened by the image of the fall of Troy - You might have to add more literary context here for some readers.
  • Usually, Gawain is said to have an eagle symbol on his shield. - "usually" - as in the other versions of the story?
  • Most critics agree that gender plays a role in the poem but differ about whether gender supports the colonial ideals or replaces them as two cultures interact in the poem. - Make it clear which two cultures.
  • There is also a large amount of critical debate surrounding the political landscape at the time. - vague
  • Ingham sees the poem as a reflection of a hybrid culture that plays the existing strong cultures off of each other to create something new - What's the something new?
  • Is Patty Ingham's theory based on colonialism or post-colonialism? When I heard her speak, I swear she was talking about post-colonialism, but that was a few years ago now.
  • Strangely, Gawain's journey leads him directly into the centre of the Pearl Poet's dialect region - Why is this strange?

This article has the meat to be an FA. I just think it needs some good copy editing, a bit of reorganization, and some polishing. Nice work, everyone! Awadewit | talk 02:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Scartol

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At Awadewit's suggestion, I've had a look at this very comprehensive article – well done on covering so many aspects of this crucial text. I've done a copyedit, and didn't realize until afterwards that you're shooting for a BrEng style (and I'm a bleedin' yank). I've checked to make sure I didn't "bollocks" anything up too badly, but you may want to give it another "how's your father".

Below I've listed some thoughts and questions, mostly about small matters of prose. Please don't feel the need to respond in detail with green ticks. I leave to your judgment which items to implement and which to merely consider.

For my own sake I'm going to mark through what gets done/skipped/whatever. Wrad (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Per WP:LEAD, I think an article of this length should have a four-paragraph lead. I recommend splitting the last paragraph into one on symbolism/themes and one on interpretations.
  • The first sentence has six wikilinks; to forestall an overdose, I suggest delinking "knight". This leaves us with two sets of bumping links, but those are worthwhile.
  • The poem survives on a single manuscript... I'd say "survives as a single manuscript". When I see the first part of that sentence ("survives on"), I think we're discussing a parchment or stone.
  • The structure of the text is unclear as explained in the first paragraph. At first read, it would appear it's a poem with three commentaries (?), but then we have "The four narrative poems...". This is confusing to me.
  • Insofar as we've linked to Arthur in the first paragraph, do we really need Arthurian legend linked in the second? I know they're links to two different articles, but maybe it's a distinction best saved for the body of the article itself.
  • I'd like to have the end of the story explained in the lead.
  • The story of Gawain's struggle to meet the appointment and his adventures along the way demonstrate chivalry and loyalty. Maybe "his commitment to chivalry"? I'd like to see these traits attributed or their presence described in just a little more detail.
  • critics often compare Gawain to similar older works ... in order to find possible meanings and contexts for the symbolism and themes within the poem. I don't know how useful the last part of this sentence is. How about at least shortening it to: "in order to find additional meanings and contexts."?

Plot synopsis

  • Can we get a year for its setting?
  • A gigantic Green Knight... Can we get something less egregious than "gigantic"? It just feels like an odd description. Is he very tall for a human? Twice human size?
  • Gawain tells them of his New Year's Day appointment at the Green Chapel So the earlier decapitation incident took place around New Year's during the previous year? Is this important enough to include in the first paragraph?
  • Is there a reason Bertilak de Hautdesert is referred to only as "the lord"? Seems like using the name would be easier.
  • When the lord returns with the deer he has killed, as agreed, Gawain responds by returning the lady's kiss to the lord... Does he give Gawain the deer (as per their agreement)? If so, maybe we should set up a parallel structure: "When the lord returns and gives Gawain the deer he has killed, his guest responds by returning the lady's kiss to the lord..."
  • The plot summary is a bit confusing; why is the girdle a badge of shame? Why is Gawain upset to learn about who set up the game? You've explained this later in the article, but I'd like to see a brief explanation in this section.

The poet

  • ...some inferences about him can be drawn from an informed reading of his works... Do we know for sure it's a him? The Tolkien quote seems to suggest as much, but am I correct in guessing that they're using the masculine as a generalized pronoun? I can't imagine the headache that would come with trying to gender-neutralize it, but on the other hand it seems sketchy to say it was a man if we don't really know.
  • I've changed the sentence "Little is known of it, or its author, before that." to "Little is known about its previous ownership." If this is inaccurate or flawed wording, please change as needed. (Since the references to Cotton and Savile are both related to ownership, it seems odd to suddenly mention its author.)
  • The three other works found with the Gawain manuscript... Maybe mention when they were all found together. Did Savile purchase/come to own them as a unit?
  • However, the manuscript containing these poems was written by a copyist... I wonder if "written" is the right word here. "composed"? "transcribed"?
  • Can we have a year for the Tolkien/Gordon edition? Could we also get a sense of how they came to the conclusions enumerated in the quote? (I assume it will be something like "after reviewing the text's allusions, style, and themes, they concluded:")
  • I think the last paragraph here needs some clarification. If the most common candidate for the Gawain manuscript is John Massey, and St. Erkenwald is sometimes attributed to him, then I don't understand why it's controversial and generally rejected to connect them. I suppose I'm not clear on which part is accepted and which is rejected. I think it would help the reader to structure the paragraph like so (I hope this makes sense):
  1. The most common candidate for the Gawain manuscript is John Massey
  2. Here are some reasons why
  3. Massey has also been connected by some people to St. Erkenwald because...
  4. Other scholars date St. E to a time outside [Massey's?] era
  5. Because of this discrepancy (or for whatever reason), connecting authorship of St. E to the Pearl Poet is still controversial

Verse form

  • I don't know if we need three phrases (breath-point, pause, caesura) for one concept. I'd pick your favorite two.
  • This is a total case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, but I don't care much for the blue boxes. Any chance we could use a more toned-down wikitable or some such instead? (I also shudder at the sight one box being laid out as on the left side through repeated floating CSS tags. But I recognize that as a personal problem, heh.)

Similar stories

  • ...Bricriu's Feast. This story parallels Gawain in several ways; like the Green Knight, Cúchulainn's antagonist feints three blows with the axe before letting him depart without injury.
  1. If you promise the reader "several ways", s/he should get several ways. =)
  2. The "him" here is ambiguous. Maybe say: "letting his target depart"?
  • I'd like to see some years (or approximations) for the similar stories. For the Lancelot tale, maybe include a phrase along the lines of: "The trope appears in Camelot for the first time in Perlesvaus, when..."?
  • When Lancelot arrives, the people of the town celebrate and announce that they have finally found a true knight. (Apparently many knights had been tested, and failed). I should like to have a word on what exactly is being tested here. (This might also make it possible to combine these and do away with the parentheses, which I feel should be used as rarely as possible in the article namespace.)
  • As with the Lancelot example above, maybe mention about Gawain: "Gawain appears in the stories The Girl with the Mule..." This kind of transition really aids readability. (Wow, spellcheck doesn't have a problem with "readability"?)
  • Several stories tell of knights who struggle to stave off the advances of voluptuous women... Is this really specific to G&GK? It seems like something which shows up all the time in literature from all over.
  • ...the knight is tested to see whether or not he will remain chaste in extreme circumstances. "extreme" may not be the right choice of word here; having an AK-47 to one's temple is an extreme circumstance. Having a lady visit one's room is a bit less so; maybe there's a less relative word?
  • The last paragraph of this section is choppy and disjointed. Approximate dates of appearance would help, but I think a general attempt at structure would also be useful. Maybe give less detail, and start by saying something like: "The elements of Gawain also appear in the stories..."
  • Among all these stories... In the last paragraph, or the whole section? If the latter, maybe say: "Unique among its various successors..."?

Themes

  • The story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is a test of Gawain's adherence to the code of chivalry. Logical coherence – the story isn't the test, is it? Maybe: "At the heart of SGGK is a test of..."?
  • The sentence "Success in the proofs..." appears suddenly. It leads me to believe there should be a sentence just before it about what happened/happens to those who fail.
  • Gawain believes he has lost his honour and in breaking his promise has failed in his duties. This sentence lists three things Gawain believes he has done. Can we combine it somehow so the reader only has to deal with two?
fixed Wrad (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "hyndez" (hinds) first described in the poem are probably from red deer, a species with large antlers like the American elk, while the subsequent "dos and of oþer dere" (does and other deer) likely refer to the smaller fallow deer. This info, while interesting, does not appear to be in any way related to the courtship. Does it really belong here? Maybe at least put it at the end of the paragraph, with a transition of some kind in front.
  • He removes its head and sets it on high. Isn't this last phrase a bit ambiguous? Maybe there's a technical meaning of "on high" with which I'm not familiar, but maybe we need "holds it aloft" or "displays it on a pike" or some such?
fixed. Wrad (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...nature represents a form of chaotic order... Does not compute. I get an inkling of this meaning, but I'd choose a less abstract wording.
  • The connection between nature and "the temptations of Bertilak’s wife" isn't clear. I assume this refers to man's lust for sexual interactivity, but if so (or if not) some clarification is in order.
  • I wonder if "man" is being used to refer to humanity in the "Nature and chivalry" section? Or perhaps the codes of chivalry and the

ensuing meanings of the story can't be applied to both men and women. Your call.

  • On the flip side, the phrase almost like an exchange of blows in a fight (or in a "beheading game") is somewhat repetitive. I didn't feel comfortable cutting it out unilaterally, but I think it could be removed without any loss.
  • I've rewritten one sentence to read: However, the hero's victory of the first game depends on his honesty, while his second victory depends on his purity. I still think it's unclear, though. Maybe something like this is better: "The hero's desire to achieve the first victory, however, results in his inability to emerge victorious in the second."?
  • I would insert the "Times and seasons" paragraph into the "Nature and chivalry" subsection.
  • The story starts on New Year's Day with a beheading and culminates on the next New Year's Day. If the time differential is a year and a day, then wouldn't one of the events happen a day earlier than the other?
  • Not really, medievalists have found that because older calendars such as this were so awful, a year and a day was actually a year. People of the time seem to have understood this, using the term "a year and a day" to mean "on this same day one year from now". Weird, but true. Wrad (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gawain leaves Camelot on All Hallows Day (or All Saints Day) Since we're linking to All Saints Day, can't we just use that as the link text?
  • The various discussions of themes often use "scholars say..." but are followed by a single citation. I'd like to see more evidence that these interpretations are supported by more than one source. (This is much less of a problem in the "Symbols" and "Interpretations" sections.)
  • Perhaps we should provide modern "translations" of the lines about Troy?

Symbolism

  • Stories of the medieval period also use it to allude to love... I personally feel that the only time a footnote needs to come in the middle of a sentence is when something very controversial is being posed, or a quotation needs attribution. (Neither of which is happening here.)
  • British writer J.R.R. Tolkien, who translated Sir Gawain... in what year?
  • Other scholars have called him the "most difficult character" to interpret the most famous poem about him, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
  1. This sentence is unclear. Perhaps an "in" is missing before "the most famous"?
  2. Why is the full title used in a sentence immediately following a use of the abbreviated form? Hopefully just an oversight?
  • I'd provide an in-text explanation of your source for the olde-tyme definition of "girdle".
  • I can imagine a reader asking him/herself: If a girdle doesn't mean underwear in Nibelungenlied, then how is it proof of sexual contact?
  • Tried to clarify. It's not like she took off her bra and handed it to him, but her girdle did have sexual meanings. Underwear isn't the only sex-symbol on the planet. Wrad (talk) 23:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gawain’s use of the pentangle also symbolises the “phenomenon of... (I changed "symbol" to "use" at the start here.) Does this refer to the character Gawain, or the poem?
  • The mathematical information at the end of the "Pentangle" section is interesting, but it feels like a bit of a tangent, and the connection to the poem is far from obvious.
  • Thus, the poet makes Gawain the epitome of perfection in knighthood through number symbolism. But he fails the test of honour, right? So how can he be knighthood perfection?
  • When quoting scholastic interpretations (as in "escape unslain, provided that his honour might also emerge unscathed"), I prefer to have an in-text explanation of who's speaking. Something like: He must, as George J. Englehardt puts it, "escape...".
  • Thus, this set of five elevens (55 stanzas) creates the perfect mix of transgression and incorruption, suggesting that Gawain is faultless in his faults. This is poetic, but confusing. I'd prefer an explanation which takes less of a dramatic license.

Interpretations

  • For future reference: spaced periods for ellipses is "strongly deprecated" in the MOS. See Wikipedia:MOS#Ellipses.
  • To emphasize that it's an interpretation, I reworded a sentence to read: "According to the Christian interpretation, the Gawain poet reveals in this depiction of Camelot a concern for his society, whose unavoidable fall will bring about ultimate destruction as intended by God." If I've taken liberties with the meaning, please adjust as needed.
  • When Gawain sets out on his journey to find the Green Chapel, he finds himself in distress... I'd like to see a brief explanation of what sort of distress he finds.
  • However, it is the men who are the ultimate focus of the story and the characters who dictate the outcome. I'm following the feminist interpretation until I hit this sentence. I'm lost here.
  • I'd reorganize the "Interpretations" section in order of popular opinion: You state that "Many critics argue that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight should be viewed, above all, as a romance." Thus, it seems logical to start with this, then provide Christian and then feminist interpretations.
  • Gawain's function, Alan Markman says,... Again, does this refer to the poem or the character?
  • ...laws under the English Order of the Garter. The motto at the end of the poem is a form of 'honi soit qui mal y pense', meaning "Shame be to the man who has evil in his mind." This is the motto of the Order of the Garter. How about rephrasing this as: "...laws under the English Order of the Garter. That group's motto, "blah blah", is presented at the end of Gawain" or some such?
  • If you refer to "Knight and Ingham" in the middle of the colonialism discussion, it makes sense to mention them early on.

External links

  • I'd like to see a brief description of where the links "The Gawain/Pearl Poet" and "Sir Gawain in the Poem" are linked from.

Other

  • In many spots, I've replaced some unusual quotation marks (“) with standard quotes ("). I don't know if this is at all significant or not, but I know that some browsers and associated software (screen readers for disabled users, for instance) stumble on non-standard quotes. You may want to do a sweep through the article to check it over.
  • Should we have a "Legacy" section? (Which could incorporate the "Modern adaptations" info?) Seems like a sensible thing to have in an article about such an important work.

Thanks for all your hard work on this article. Good luck with the FA process, and please let me know if you have any questions. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 21:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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