Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Piri/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 8 November 2023 [1].

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Piri

Nominator(s): Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The OnlyFans model Piri began releasing music in 2021 after entering into a relationship with Tommy Villiers of the Villiers family. Their single "Soft Spot" went viral on TikTok and Spotify, prompting EMI to sign them, re-release "Soft Spot" and release "Beachin" and "Words", and for Polydor to release "On & On", Froge.mp3, a cover of "Unlock It", and "Updown" and "Nice 2 Me". Thanks to Pseud 14 for taking a look before nomination (see the article's talk page); any further comments will be appreciated.--Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

First-time nomination

• Hi Launchballer, and, a little belatedly, welcome to FAC. Just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Image review - pass

Four images:

• File:Piri on stage at radio 1 big weekend (cropped).jpg, File:Piri on stage at radio 1 big weekend 2 (cropped).jpg, File:Piri on stage at glaso (cropped).jpg, File:Piri pole dancing at scala (cropped).jpg, File:Piri on stage at scala (cropped).jpg - Wikipedian created - CC 4.0 - okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Pseud 14

For context, I provided my review here (post-PR and pre-FAC nomination). I can go ahead and support this, with my comments addressed satisfactorily. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by Chris

• Some of the image captions refer to her as Piri and others as McBurnie - any particular reason for this?

Yeah, I missed some of them when I was changing them. They all now say McBurnie.

Would it not be better to refer to her as Piri, given that that's the name she is famous under? I guess thinking about it in the cold light of day rather than at 11pm this applies to the prose as well, with the probable exception of the early life section. In an article about a musician who uses a stage name I would have thought it would be normal to use said stage name when talking about their activities in the music business. Personally speaking I wouldn't, for example, expect Lady Gaga's article to say something like "Germanotta released a new single in 2015"..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:19, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more, but MOS:SURNAME says I should go with McBurnie.--Launchballer 08:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

That guideline says When a majority of reliable secondary sources refer to persons by a pseudonym, they should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (e.g. Sting, Snoop Dogg, the Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used. That would seem to support her being referred to as Piri -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:27, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, changed. Did you see the other part of my response?--Launchballer 08:34, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• "for a stan account" - I have no idea what a "stan account" is, is there an appropriate link?

There is now.

• "Tommy Villiers,[3] a member of Porij" - what's Porij? A band?

Correct, and I've added that to the article.

• "A couple of weeks later, one of their photographers" - does "their" refer to Porij?

I hope so, because the article now says "the band" instead - though there must be a way of writing it that avoids using "the band" twice.

• "after a trip to Formby beach in Liverpool," - Formby is near Liverpool but not literally in it

Taken out "in Liverpool".

• "became that day's "Hottest Record"" - specify that this was also on Radio 1

Seems kind of recursive, but added.

• "It was shortly after the pair attended" - is there a word missing here?

Not any more.

• "so to keep her fans informed" => "so as to keep her fans informed"

Done.

• "The song was first played on BBC Music Introducing with Jess Iszatt on 5 August, who" - "The song was first played on 5 August on BBC Music Introducing with Jess Iszatt, who" might flow better

I agree. Done.

• "As of May 2022, she uploads" => "As of May 2022, she uploaded" (May 2022 was about 18 months ago, so present tense is not appropriate)

Done.

• The discography, music videos, and tours sections are all unsourced

All of the information in the discography and tours sections are sourced in the main body and so do not require repeated citations per WP:REPCITE. The music video section is a fair cop, and I'll add these to prose in the morning.

Okay, now I have a problem. The Nice 2 Me music video attracted no coverage (they left their label immediately afterwards) and so doesn't belong in prose. I would really rather not cite YouTube given WP:VENDOR - should I siphon that off to its own discography page?--Launchballer 08:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I think a one-off use of YouTube as a source, just to prove that the video exists, would be acceptable (IMO, at least :-) ) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:31, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure. (I've put it in prose rather than the table, as I think references in those look slightly messy.)--Launchballer 10:12, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• There's quite a bit of overlinking. Charli XCX, TikTok MJ Cole, Doja Cat, BBC Radio 1 and others are all linked at least twice

User:Evad37/duplinks-alt says I've got them all, but I'll double check in the morning.

• That's what I got -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:12, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• All of the images originate from a single uploader - is it certain they have the rights to release these? They've had another deleted as copyvio. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

See User talk:Launchballer#Piri — images and Sammi Brie's comments at the GA nom. She consulted with Snowmanonahoe at the time, and they think that because the images haven't been uploaded elsewhere, they should be fine.--Launchballer 02:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Source review

Spot-check upon request and with the caveat that I don't know much about the sources. Is AllMusic a reliable source for birth dates? What makes polyesterzine, hungertv and ticketmaster a reliable source? The Guardian should not be formatted like a journal link, it's not that reliable. "MistaJam. 8 June 2022. Capital Dance." lacks a bit too much information. I don't see much consistency in which sources have archives and which ones don't. Ditto on Music Week vs. musicweek.com. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

AllMusic I regard as situational depending on the author; Paul Simpson is this guy, nothing indicates that he doesn't know what he's talking about. (I would really rather not take it out if I can help it, given that 14 March is exactly when I was hoping to run this!) Hunger is the fashion magazine of Rankin; both it and Ticketmaster are used for attributed paraphrased quotes, which I think is okay. (But I wouldn't use Ticketmaster for anything else but attributed paraphrased quotes, given that this clearly uses us.) Polyester I've tested their correction system myself (they had a duplicated paragraph in an earlier version of the article), and it is prompt. I've expanded the Capital reference and fixed the Music Week error, and removed the ISSNs. The last major archive of this was in March, and I've added about 71 references since. It's going to be a pain to update them all but I'll come back to you when I do.--Launchballer 10:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

All references now archived.--Launchballer 06:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

For what little it's worth, she stated that she turns 24 the Tuesday after 11 March 2023 in this tweet (which is the 14th), The Times and Dork (magazine) both confirm that she was 23 in November 2022, and NME confirms that she was 22 in November 2021, although I refuse to use adjacent references per WP:SEAOFBLUE. My personal rule of thumb is 'no reason to doubt dates, every reason to doubt years'.--Launchballer 10:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, on WP:DOB it's said that a subject's own statements on verified social media can be good sources for their ages. That said, that edges into an area of BLP policy I have little familiarity with. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

In theory yes, but is it the best source available? I would argue that AllMusic edges it. The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to doubt it.--Launchballer 13:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Heartfox

I'm sorry, but this seems drastically overwritten for an artist who has only been active for three years. There are 11 paragraphs covering 3 years of her career. Now, granted it is not even a GA, but Olivia Rodrigo (a much bigger artist) has 5 paragraphs for that same timeframe. I would either cut a lot more information or convert it to a note or move it to its own article.

• Time Out's "22 Best Songs of 2022" list at No. 7,[44] Billboard's "50 Best Dance Songs Of 2022",[45] The Forty-Five's "Best Songs of 2022" list at No. 45,[46] and NME's "50 Best Songs of 2022" list at No. 31.[47] In addition, BBC Radio 1 nominated it for "Hottest Record of the Year". — this should all be combined into a sentence saying something like "various best-of lists for 2022", or not included at all.

Notified.

I've actually cut this, since none of them appear in secondary sources, and they're covered in the song's article.

• "the pair appeared on TikTok's "Breakthrough Artists 2022",[66] Montreux Jazz Festival's "Spotlight 20 Artists to Watch in 2023",[67] Ticketmaster's 2023 "Breakthrough Artists" list,[68] and the Official Charts Company's "Artists to Watch 2023" list" — again, similar things should be combined, or put in a note, or not given at all

Notified.

• " with reviewers complimenting the contrast between her vocals and the speed of Villiers' instrumentals" → only 1 review is cited but the prose says "reviewers"

Cut.

• "she had 'over 419,000 followers' on TikTok" → why is "over 419,000 followers" in a quote?

Removed quote marks.

• "She also maintains a Twitter account[97]: 4:29  and an Instagram account" → this doesn't seem relevant, doesn't every artist have both

Not necessarily, but cut.

I can tell you this is an artefact from when the article stated why her usernames end in ".io", from back when I thought a Discord comment was an acceptable source.

• "Her usual method of dealing with trolls is to ignore them" → I just don't see how this is encyclopedic

Cut.

• I feel there are too many quotes in the personal life section.

Cut all.

• "Piri has been vocal about her experiences as a woman in the music industry; she used a Hunger article on International Women's Day in 2023 to state that there was a "long way to go for equality", that the popularity of Andrew Tate had resulted in a decline in treatment of female artists, that when online she regularly saw the success of female artists being attributed to their looks instead of "their hard work and talent", and that women had "to work so much harder to prove themselves"." → this is way too much in one sentence

Truncated at industry.

• awards and listicles should not be included unless they were covered by a secondary source

Need longer to work on this.--Launchballer 07:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably should have asked this before adding "Bluetooth", but is this just for prose or does this include tables as well?--Launchballer 15:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I am at an oppose per WP:FACR 1d and 4. Heartfox (talk) 16:08, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all of your concerns, but given that I'm falling asleep I want to look at this with fresh eyes before saying for definite.--Launchballer 19:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Launchballer, have you revisited this? If so, could you let Heartfox know? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I thought the above question having a later timestamp would have made it obvious, but sure. Heartfox - I've addressed your concerns, what else do you have in mind?--Launchballer 20:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your dedication in improving the article. There are still some issues, for example:

• Citing AllMusic for date of birth is problematic when per WP:ALLMUSIC: "Some editors question the accuracy ... for biographical details and recommend more reliable sources when available". I would not consider it a high-quality source for biographical information.
• Source formatting inconsistency, including one source with three(!) different names given: one says Official Charts, others say Official Charts Company, another says The Official Charts Company.
• I apologize if I was unclear with achievement sources. It's totally fine to source a Rolling Stone 'best-of' list from Rolling Stone (I would not cite BrooklynVegan for that), it's just for questionable things ie Ticketmaster lists, citing a secondary source helps demonstrate the list's notability. A Rolling Stone list has inherent notability in my opinion, so it can be cited directly.
• Questionable MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE regarding photo of her at Glastonbury in the discography section; what does this have to do with understanding her discography? Same for image in the awards section.
• Magazine titles should be italicized in publishers column of the listcles table

These will be the last of my comments. I still think the article is not quite ready and would benefit from a second nomination after further revision. Best, Heartfox (talk) 01:37, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I've addressed these all anyway, while they were fresh in my mind.--Launchballer 03:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

BennyOnTheLoose

Just a couple of comments/suggestions. I probably won't have time to do a full review. I have a feeling that a bit of a copyedit is required in a few places, but I'm far from the best person to attempt that, Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm about to go out, so probably won't have time to look at this until I get back. There are a couple of things I want to say before I get into the article though.--Launchballer 14:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• their 2021 single "Soft Spot" charted at No. 20 on the UK Independent Singles Breakers Chart, seems to be quite prominent in the lead given that the chart is, according to our article, only "based on UK sales of singles and albums released on independent record labels by musical artists who have never made the UK top 40."
• Piri has released songs in multiple genres, including the house song "Sunlight", the disco song "It's a Match", the liquid drum and bass songs "Soft Spot", "On & On", and "Nice 2 Me", the jungle track "Beachin", the speed garage song "Words", the garage songs "Feel It" and "Lovergirl", the hyperpop song "Updown", and the drum and bass songs "Fumble", "Head", "C U Never", and "Bluetooth". - maybe would be more readable as just mentioning the genres rather than including all the song names?

I might even truncate this at "genres", though I need longer to decide.

• I think She has also been praised for her openness, from sharing her personal life on social media to subjects of works, and for maintaining an OnlyFans account alongside her music career, which she set up in May 2020. could be improved, but I don't have a specific suggestion.
• All three sentences in the final para of the lead start with "She..." - consider varying.

I have completely reordered the lede so that it just mentions the genres, and then the 'frog motif' stuff onwards in the the first paragraph; 'Three of her works' onwards constitutes the second paragraph.

• She holds a degree in chemistry from Lancaster University, during which time she was inspired by her organic chemistry lecturer, and wanted to follow her into the profession could do with a bit of tweaking.

I've reordered this paragraph.

T don't think tht She holds a degree in chemistry from Lancaster University,[9] during which time she idolised the swagger of Doja Cat and the K-pop group Red Velvet works. Holding a degree is not a period of time. Maybe something like "She holds a degree in chemistry from Lancaster University.[9] During her studies she..." ?

Fair cop. Fixed.

• Consider moving the citations to after the punctuation in Sophie Leigh McBurnie[1] was born on 14 March 1999[2] to an Asda manager and a human resources manager,[3] and In May 2020,[13] after finding that she was £2,000[3] into her overdraft,[13] - it's really good for verifiability right now, but not so good for readability IMO. Citations are trypically after punctuation. (MOS:CITEPUNCT)

My interpretation of "Refs are placed after adjacent punctuation" is that "when references are next to punctuation, they should be placed after it". I can tell you that my jaw dropped at reading "Adjacent ref tags should have no space between them", because as far as I'm concerned, MOS:SEAOFBLUE forbids adjacent links of any kind, even ref tags. I need longer to decide how best to proceed.

I've rewritten both so that they have a little more room to breathe, although I really think it important to keep text-source integrity.

• Consider rewording After it was realised that Piri could sing and Villiers could produce, they set about writing together ("it was realised" by who?)

By each other. Might do some more research as to who told who first.

Rewritten.

• What in the source supports She is also noted for her pole dancing,?

Completely rewritten.

• praised and criticised TikTok - for what?

I cut that section right down at Heartfox's suggestion (see the page history), but I'll take another look when I get back.

Praised for the fact "that literally anything can pop off on there", criticised for unjustly and repeatedly banning her account. I've added this to the article.

• scepticism of her sex work - is this relating to her OnlyFans account? It might be worth mentioning what sort of content she has there. According to our article, "The service is used primarily by sex workers who produce pornography", but I guess there must be lots of other stuff on there too.

According to this 2020 interview (published in November but clearly written some months earlier), she posts "nude photos and videos as well as lingerie shots, mostly just me posing and looking cute", as well as "some pay-per-view masturbation videos but that’s just whenever I feel like it". There are no other secondary sources that talk about it to that level of detail, and arguably to include it wouldn't really comply with WP:ABOUTSELF (it's very self-serving). Plus it's quite severely out of date anyway (she hasn't uploaded pay-per-view for quite some time).

I've expanded the earlier OnlyFans section and introduced the phrase "began uploading pornographic content" from the podcast (and I must have been half asleep when I listened to that). What else do you suggest?--Launchballer 17:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I've not listened to the podcast, but introducing the uploading to OnlyFans earlier makes sense. I'm not sure all readers would associate this with the later phrase her "her sex work" though. And I'm not sure "scepticism" is the right word in "and criticised scepticism of her sex work". Maybe something like "and dismissed criticism of her sex work on OnlyFans"? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Launchballer, if you are ready for further input from a reviewer, it is sometimes helpful to ping them: BennyOnTheLoose. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, og the Mild. Launchballer, thanks for your willingness to take on board my comments. I still can't commit to reviewing the article in enough detail to either support or oppose, I'm afraid. But a couple more comments are below. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Is there any reason why Charli XCX and PinkPanthress aren't wikilinked at the first mention in the body text?

XCX was wikilinked at first mention, albeit in the lede. PinkPantheress is now linked at first mention.

• Piri & Tommy's "On & On"[64] and Froge.mp3 have both been compared to PinkPantheress, with the latter specifically compared with her 2021 mixtape To Hell with It seems to be based on one reviewer's comments, so is it worth mentioning the reviewer and site in the text? Similarly for Piri's voice has been noted for its neutral, untutored quality, where Petridis is expressing his own opinion rather than reporting on this as a widely-held view, which it may or may not be. Looks like there are a few other examples in that setion, but perhaps wait to see what other reviewers think before rushing to change it. (I know from experience it's a pain to find different ways of expressing something like "Lois Lane of The Daily Planet wrote..."

Let's do this now, I can always revert it.--Launchballer 01:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Sorry but the prose is not up to standard. Looking at the opening paragraph alone:

• "Born in Rochdale": Where? "Born in Rochdale, greater Manchester" would give some non-Brits a bit of a clue.

May as well address these anyway. Added.

• "she is half of Piri & Tommy": Who or what is that?

Added 'the band'.

• "Loud LDN, and has released": this is the third of five "and"s in the sentence. The sentence begins with her being born in Rochdale and ends up with a long list of musical genres
• "including house, disco, liquid drum and bass, jungle, speed garage, garage, hyperpop, and drum and bass." wp:seaofblue – and if we're saying "including", it doesn't need to be an exhaustive list

Ended sentence at 'Loud LDN'.

• "she and Tommy Villiers": who?

Thought context would have made it clear, but cut.

• "used to give each other": tenses awry /clumsy prose

Cut.

• "Piri is noted for her frog motif, derived from a nickname she and Tommy Villiers used to give each other, and has been praised for her pole dancing, her openness, and for maintaining an OnlyFans account alongside her music career": this is the second run on sentence in what is a short paragraph

Cut 'derived from [...] each other'

• "She has also been vocal about her experiences as a woman in the music industry.": This doesn't really tell us anything – negative or positive experiences, as a start? From reading that sentence I don’t know if she praised the way women are protected and nurtured, or if they're blocked, downtrodden and poorly treated.

Very poorly.

That's just the opening paragraph and a very superficial skim down the article shows more problems below. I suggest you withdraw this and work on it a little more before brining it back for another crack. – SchroCat (talk) 10:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• This has been open for seven weeks but seems some way from gaining a consensus to promote, and so I am archiving it. It may be helpful to run the article through GoCE Requests for a copy edit and it would probably benefit from a visit to PR. The usual two-week hiatus will apply. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.