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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:29, 15 August 2011 [1].

Mark Sanchez

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Mark Sanchez (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): The Writer 2.0 Talk 20:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... As one of the up and coming members of the National Football League, Mark Sanchez is an intriguing personality caught in the midst of a world of constant physical body blows—all the while still trying to perfect his craft. Promoted to GA status, with significant input from Bobak, in February 2009, I have undertaken the task of taking the article to the next level so to speak and have put forth quite some time into improving the stature of the article which gradually deteriorated, prior to my arrival, due to persistent vandalism. The Writer 2.0 Talk 20:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot-checking – Checked a handful or so of sources and am very unimpressed with what I found:

  • Reference 4 doesn't say anything about Sanchez's mother moving "to be closer to the family"; it just says that she stayed in contact through bus trips.
  • Source (ref 4): "had been one of the few Mexican-Americans in a mostly Jewish part of East LA." Article: "one of the few Mexican-Americans in a Jewish part of East Los Angeles...". Pretty close if you ask me.
  • More closeness from that source: "So now Sanchez talks to high school kids from predominantly Mexican East LA." This is in the article: "He began speaking to high school kids from predominantly Hispanic Santa Ana and East Los Angeles." Again, the structure is very similar in both.
  • From reference 6: "was the top quarterback in the nation coming out of high school in 2006." Article: "and was considered the top quarterback in the nation coming out of high school in 2005." The structure is almost exactly the same, with the exception of being about two different people. Still way too close for my comfort.
  • Later in the article: "Mustain, like Sanchez a year earlier, was the top quarterback in the nation coming out of high school in 2006." The full version of the source piece I quoted above: "of touted transfer Mustain, who, like Sanchez a year earlier, was the top quarterback in the nation coming out of high school in 2006." This is plagaristic by any standard.
  • From reference 84, "so he could do interviews with the Spanish-language media without a translator" is seen in both the source and article.
  • Still on ref 84, this is in the source: "He also participated in a fundraiser for Operation Teddy Bear, which provides school supplies to first-graders in heavily Latino areas of Long Beach and the South Bay, and recently joined L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa in distributing holiday gifts to needy families in East L.A." Article: "He participated in programs which provides school supplies to first-graders in heavily Hispanic areas of Long Beach and the South Bay, and joined L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa in distributing holiday gifts to needy families." Again almost identical.

Sorry, but I have to oppose over all the closeness present in just the sources I looked at, which are a small percentage of the total. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment First and foremost I would just like to say that I had not even noticed these similarties as the sentences were a product of older revisions of the article however, that is no excuse and for that I apologize. Had I known, I would have immediately rid of them because this certainly does not reflect myself as a writer and my previous works can certainly attest to that. That said, I hope you would reconsider your oppose as I have managed to rewrite the sections in question (Early life, College career and Personal life) however, I would understand if you did not. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 15:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I've got Rex Ryan's book, so I can check sourcing there.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll appreciate the criticism. It only helps you get better. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 10:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not necessarily criticism. And I've been caught in problems because of "legacy text" from earlier editors. There's always a tension, you don't want to eradicate the influence of other editors.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, for now at least. I think this still needs a careful reading of the prose. A few examples:

  • "Sanchez has been highly touted for his elusive nature, awareness and pocket presence when throwing the football." What on Earth does "pocket presence" mean? He knows where his pockets are?
  • "Sanchez has also been praised for his strong, athletic arm, immediately drawing comparisons to Hall of Fame quarterback Joe Namath, both of whom also drew a wealth of star power during their respective eras."
  • "Sanchez has displayed sincere dedication to the sport ...". In whose opinion? The whole Player profile section has a feel that it was written by an adoring fan.
  • "He is best friends with childhood friend Scotty McKnight ...". More fancruft. How do we know who his best friend is, and even if we do, why should we care?
  • "Sanchez has been involved in multiple charities including the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation to help raise awareness regarding Type 1 diabetes and Sam's Club's Giving Made Simple to help raise awareness about childhood obesity and ways to prevent it." You need to consider adding some punctuation to that, so that it makes sense.
  • From the Mexican-American identity section: "Sanchez was a third-generation, full Mexican ...". We were already told that in the Personal life section .
  • "It became a prominent issue after his nationally-televised game against Notre Dame." No hyphens after adverbs.
  • "... unlike most of his predecessors, Sanchez was a third-generation, full Mexican and none had been embraced to the extent the Sanchez was." Why "the Sanchez"?

Malleus Fatuorum 20:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've addressed the majority of your concerns. The main issue seemed to be the player profile which I have re-written with a more neutral tone. Additionally, I removed the mention of Scotty McKnight and the hypen after the adverb. Per your sixth point, I removed the mention from the personal section but I felt you should know that the reason it appeared again was because it was necessary in the context of the sentence. As for "the Sanchez", that was just a grammatical error that went unnoticed until you found it! I appreciate your comments and look forward to any additional feedback you have. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 01:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait to see what Wehwalt has to say about the content, and then I'll comment again. Malleus Fatuorum 03:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to it today. I've been lazy this week.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:17, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've read it. I think the prose is borderline and could probably pass with some hand holding. Content. I did not read anything I found surprising , which is a good thing since I'm a Jets fan. My major concern is POV, a bio tends to be pro-the person, but I think this pushes the limits there. Why say he played for the Jets after playing "only" x games in college? I think the pro-Sanchez bits could be toned down so it doesn't sound a bit like one of those sports bios aimed a the younger set. I can either start with comments now or wait until Malleus is done.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please carry on Wehwalt, I'm probably not going to be around much until next week anyway. I completely agree with your POV comment, and I too see that as one of the article's greatest weaknesses. Malleus Fatuorum 16:48, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gearing up to leave on a trip early Saturday morning, so may not complete it by then as I want to squeeze the last ounce of having my references (for other articles) around me. TW2.0, you might want to get ahead of the curve.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:22, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have some free time this weekend and I'll make sure to pick through the article. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 11:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is very jargony, so much so that I am having difficulty understanding parts of it. Could it be rewritten for an international audience, with less jargon? Also, what are "Spring practice" and "Fall practice"? Per WP:SEASON we do not use seasons of the year to designate times. If these are jargon terms is there a way to gloss them? --John (talk) 18:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When this came up in an earlier FAC on American football, I argued that football is allowed terminology just like music and if you don't have to stop to explain arpeggio, you shouldn't have to for linebacker either.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, even if it is just writing with this in mind; it could be as simple as linking arpeggio the first time it is mentioned for those who don't know. --John (talk) 03:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with something like "Spring practice", for example, is that, that is how college football operates. There are practices in both the Spring and Fall, it is not like an NFL Training Camp where it only happens once over a period of a few weeks or so. Unfortunately, I have not found any articles that make any mention of this so far. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 11:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that "spring football" or "spring practice" are terms of art, even though we have no articles on them. They are not gratuitous references to seasons which are reversed in Oz, they are a way of keeping players fit and engaged in the offseason, and they are called spring practices because that is when they happen, the NFL lacks franchises in Sydney and Buenos Aires. I would take care to link any football position or any obvious bit of jargon.
Here are some comments to start:
Lede
  • Perhaps call him an American football player who plays the quarterback position.
  • "amidst" Too fancy. Perhaps "in"?
  • "well-disciplined". I think this is unnecessary.
  • " At USC, Sanchez was relegated as the backup quarterback though he rose to prominence in the community due to his Mexican-American heritage and brief appearances on the field due to injuries suffered by starting quarterback John David Booty" This sentence should be separated out, Sanchez's on-field stuff and off-field, into two sentences. Additionally, you should say what year and say that it was Sanchez's first, second, etc. season at USC.
  • "prestigious" I would omit.
  • " was awarded the Offensive MVP." I know this is difficult phrasing, but this is not the best, in my view. How offensive was he?
  • "After only starting sixteen games for the Trojans," Perhaps "Although many considered him too inexperienced"
  • "and became" becoming
  • Can something be said in the lede about media attention towards Sanchez in New York?--Wehwalt (talk) 00:00, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I feel the "well-disciplined" adds to the fact that he is a leader however, we can debate this further upon your return. As far as the media attention is concerned, we could possibly do this unfortunately, most of the article I have found so far only make mention, or rather, obsess over his love life. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some more.
Early life
  • Given modern day lifestyles, I would add his parents' last name.
    Hey, I got an FAC going about a guy from Whittier too! Something about the water there. That being said, if he departed those happy climes as it seems before the age of six, I would not use the term "grew up".
    There is no objection to referring to a child by his first name, up to the age of 18. However, you should be consistent in whether you are calling him "Mark" or "Sanchez"
    Link Orange County, California.
    "raised them under firm discipline that called on them to be leaders and communicators." Perhaps "raised them strictly, seeking to influence them to become leaders and communicators". But I warn you, the term "communicators" may not lead to full understanding of what you mean. You might want to cut it off with "leaders", that has a good vibe, given we're discussing a QB here. Also, I would move this sentence to be the lead sentence of the next paragraph."
    "Throughout his childhood " This sentence does too much. Split it into at least two.
    "coaches Bill Cunerty and Bob Johnson" as these guys are not linked, I imagine they are not notable. Accordingly, you may want to describe who they are, briefly. As in "West Beverly Hills High School football coach ..."
    "informed the family" He didn't die in Iraq! Perhaps "opined" or "stated".
    " could potentially" I would strike the word potentially, but I don't feel strongly about it.
    "skills and drills". Unrhyme.
    "to further his football career" I hesitate to use the word career referring to high schoolers. Perhaps "would become a better football player" or some such.
    "Sanchez, who was attending Santa Margarita High School, joined the football team and during his first pass attempt as a sophomore, Sanchez threw a 55-yard touchdown" The second part of this is significant enough that it should be its own sentence. As for Johnson, the reader does not need to be so heavily reminded of his role in having him play QB. You should be able to fold it into the first sentence, perhaps wrapping it up "where Johnson, recognized as a 'quarterback guru', was head coach."

Piecemeal, I fear, but I'll get this done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:02, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Going back to high school
  • "high school career in 2005" Graduation or last game? Needs clarification.
College
  • "Sanchez was well regarded upon his arrival at USC." The meaning of this may be unclear.
    I would spell out that the other two QBs were upperclassmen. You do imply it by "returning". Also throw a 2005 in there and a pipe to the article on USC's football season that year, for sure there is one!
    " instead took a redshirt season" Needless jargon, perhaps say that as he did not play, he was allowed to preserve the year of eligibility, and then use redshirt as an alternative term.
    "remaining subject to team-related discipline" better, "though he was disciplined by the football team for ..."
    "fake identification" "false identification"
    "once junior Booty" "once Booty, a junior"
    after the first day of Spring practice, This reads very oddly, after the first day? I would tie it to Booty's injury, or perhaps "once it was clear that Booty would require surgery following an injury sustained on ..." You get the idea.
    No matter how you slice it, seasons of the year, in isolation, are lower case. Even with spring practice. And the international readers' case becomes stronger as it is clear that none of the use of Spring or Fall are properly capped, like "Spring Practice" would be if it were to be capitalized. You might want to research the propriety of using that term.
    How can there by a Fall training camp when colleges play from late August to mid January these days, if they are good? And USC was.
    When did Sanchez get in games in 2007? Mop up situations? It is unclear why you are mentioning first games in which he did not throw a pass, then games in which he did. Surely the latter are the more notable and should be listed first?
    "subsequently " delete, adds nothing.
    I think the mention of Sanchez's being made starting quarterback. You might want to mention Carroll appointed him. You might want to mention, in the Jets part of the article that Carroll once, in a manner of speaking, and at least officially, "coached" the Jets, so to speak, allegedly. (I do not remember the 1994 season fondly).
    Arkansas-transfer and former Razorback starter Mitch Mustain" Why the "Arkansas transfer" The whole phrasing seems forced, I would reverse the two QBs and introduce Mustain more easily "Mitch Mustain, a transfer from Arkansas, where he had been the starting quarterback."
    "Mustain, similarly to Sanchez, was " "Mustain, like Sanchez, had been"
    "the coaches". Another good place to mention that incompetent pretender at "coaching".
    " thumb on his right hand" "right thumb"? Simplify, simplify, this is a good thing to notice when you read the article out loud to yourself.
    "the senior Booty" I just don't think class years work well this way, and also, you've already told the reader Booty's year in school, and they are capable of figuring out that he will be a senior a year after he's a junior.
    " at an away game against Oregon" in an away game ...
    "course of the season". It's unclear whether you mean the whole season or just the part after Booty returned. Please clarify.
    "were able to immediately put the kneecap back into place" A braver man than I, Sanchez, but I would strike "were able to".
    " opener against Virginia during the final scrimmage of Fall camp." This seems contradictory, was it a game or a scrimmage? Prose is murky here!
    "early Heisman consideration." The word "consideration" seems a bit much; the voting did not take place for months afterwards. At most "mentions", and you may want to look for a more specific word.
    There is more description of USC's season in that image caption than in the article! Surely that should not be. You need to establish how they got to the Rose Bowl (Who said "The Pasadena Freeway"?)
    You list three quarterbacks, and two years in school. "Respectively" will not work here.
    Since the draft occurred before graduation, I'd guess he finished work on his degree, rather than the degree itself. before the draft.
    Having the Marinovich mention where it is makes it sound like trivia. Why not move it to before the mention of Carroll being against Sanchez's leaving, then it sounds like a stand taken by USC coaches.

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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