Template talk:Infobox shogi professional

{{event date and age}} on shogi players

Hello,

I noticed you added this template, for "achieved professional status" on many shogi players. I understand what you wanted to do, but please be aware that this template is just a redirect to {{death date and age}}, which means that any machine, script or bot that reads it, reads it as "death date".

Thus, those players were wrongly added false death dates on wikidata at least twice, some more than twice ; it caused disagreements and it was difficult to explain to non english-speaking people the cause of this ; and it took some time to understand the origin of it.

Do you think something could be done to avoid this confusion ? maybe change the template or remove the redirect ? because contributors who are aware of this can avoid the trap, but others may fall in it, again, and again, and again...

You may contact me on wikidata to talk about it and try and find a solution :) --Hsarrazin (talk on wd) 11:53, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

the above was copied from my talk page. – ishwar  (speak) 18:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

well, the redirect doesnt make any sense to me. Maybe it was never used before and, thus, some person made a redirect incorrectly for that reason?

i'll just unredirect it. – ishwar  (speak) 18:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

the specific link to the wikidata talk: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Topic:U31eq68kkn3mw146

That's a wikidata issue, not an enwiki issue. Primefac (talk) 18:50, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Ok. That's an unexpectedly bureaucratic answer, haha. I was assuming that everyone wanted to fix the problem, which appears to be stemming from enwiki's conflation of semantically different things. – ishwar  (speak) 19:12, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I somewhat disagree with the end name of the template, but it gets the job done and there's no reason to have two templates doing exactly the same thing. If you want to get something changed, you need to start a discussion somewhere. I don't think WP:TFD is the right venue, so maybe the Template WikiProject. Primefac (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, one reason is that death events & nondeath events are different things. That's presumably the reason why it's used in this template. And, i had thought wikipedia would have a responsibility to transparently label information given its prominent position on the web. (One example was that Google reports some people as dead.) But, if you are representative of template folks, then i guess the problem will remain unresolved to be fixed elsewhere. – ishwar  (speak) 04:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

You found a problem, I told you where to report it, and now it's my responsibility to soldier on? You clearly know more about this than I do, so I'm not really sure why you're just throwing your hands up in the air and telling me it's all my fault if things go tits up. Primefac (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

No, it's only your responsibility if you choose.

I think you know more about templates than me. You fiddle with them a good bit i guess (?) and have read the policies associated with them. I havent read them or fiddled much. I did read the stuff on the wikidata site. So, if you havent, then yes, i do know more about the wikidata comments than you. It did seem like you are a better choice than me to handle the issue. You can decline, of course.

The vibe i got from you is that this isnt a real problem and not worth changing. And, therefore, not worth reporting. Maybe i misinterpreted you. If it is worth reporting, i can report it.

It's not only your fault. I'm not singling you out. It's my fault, too. It would be the fault of everyone on wikipedia who was involved in creating and is involved in maintaining the situation including the authors of the T3 policy/guideline who lead you to reject my simple unredirection fix. So, it's a quite a lot of people really, as to be expected in such a decentralized project as wikipedia. – ishwar  (speak) 21:08, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Apologies if I come across as not caring or disinterested, I'm just not sure what's to be done from an "enwiki" perspective. Clearly there's some sort of disconnect between enwiki and WikiData, but while I know a lot about enwiki templates I know very little about WD. I read through Hsarrazin's WD talk page, and it sounds like they have no interest in working to solve the problem (which is also part of the reason for my slight "attitude" towards this), which is why I was asking that you make (at least the first) inroads. Primefac (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

It's fine. I'm sorry for defeatedly throwing up my hands.

I'll report something on that page as you suggested. (i'll need to spend some time to read the project page...)

I dont know much about wikidata either. My impression was that Hsarrazin just didnt want to step on anyone's toes especially since they are an outsider in terms of community as well as language. Well, obviously, they think that the wikidata approach is right and enwiki is wrong. I do more or less agree with that although perhaps one could argue that the wikidata tool (or whatever it is they are using) should be stricter in some way.

peace. – ishwar  (speak) 02:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac: It's not that have no interest in working to solve the problem (as you say). I'm not usually a wikipedia contributor (thus, I do not know wikipedia rules) and I'm French, so I'm even less a contributor here... I just do not feel competent and legitimate here. I wouldn't know what to do to help solve the problem... I am interested in its resolution though, because it causes problems elsewhere, and I agree to try and help you on this, if you need my help... --Hsarrazin (talk on wd) 12:29, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

On the English Wikipedia, redirects sometimes point to templates because they perform the same function as that template, even if the name is different. Anyone building a tool based on the use of a template should perform research to determine if the template is used for multiple semantic purposes and then either adjust the tool's function accordingly or begin a discussion at an appropriate forum on en.WP to determine how to separate those semantic purposes. In this case, the wikidata tool needs to distinguish between uses of the "event" redirect and the "death" template. There is nothing in the current template code that limits its semantic use to death dates, so treating every use of the template as a "death date" is bad programming practice. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:53, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ish ishwar, Primefac, Hsarrazin, and Jonesey95: I'm just curious as to whether this issue was ever satisfactorily resolved since bots are still changing the template syntax from "event date and age" to "death date and age". This changes doesn't seem to affect how the information is being displayed in this template's infoxbox, but I have no idea whether it's affecting how the articles where the template is being used are categorized or being listed in Wikidata. If everything has been resolved, perhaps this template's documentation should be updated accordingly so that those who want to use it understand that it's OK to use "death date and age". If it's not been resolved, then perhaps a new template (that's not redundant) could be created to deal with things like "events". -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Someone added the template to Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Template redirects so that it would be replaced automatically. I have undone this action and hopefully they should stop being replaced. Primefac (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

New parameter

I'm wondering if it would be feasible to add a new parameter titled "protegee(s)" or "student(s)" to the infobox so that the names of a shogi professionals "deishi" can be added. Some professionals seems to be more referred to by who their "deishi" are then their actual results in professional games, with some even having quite extensive shogi family trees so to speak. Professionals often refer to others in the same "shogi family" as "ani deishi" (older^brother deishi) or "otōto/imōto deishi" (younger brother/sister deishi) depending upon the order in which they started studying under the same teacher. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I can code in a "Notable student(s)" parameter |notable_students=. Primefac (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

That should work. In some cases, there might be quite a few of these "notable students". Would an {{ubl}}, a {{blist}}, or no list template at all work best in such a case? -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In the value, not hardcoded into the template, yes. Primefac (talk) 11:53, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Primefac (talk) 14:25, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Adding citations

I was wondering if there's a preferred way to add citations to the infobox. I wanted to add a citation for the "career record" of Kōichi Kodama to the infobox, but it was messing up the formating; so, I added it here instead. That's probably good enough, but it started me think as to whether it might be helpful sometimes to add citations to the infobox. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I have added |winloss_ref= to the template. Primefac (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

LPSA links

@Ish ishwar and Primefac: It looks like the LPSA has changed its website and the links to individual profile pages (like this) added to the infobox no longer work like they previously did per #Female professional profile pages. The main profile page can be found here and clicking on the photos will open a new window about each player, but there doesn't appear to be a direct link to use. Any ideas on how to work around this? -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:34, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

If there's no direct link, then we might as well just disabled the automatic linking. Sucks when websites decide to go all-flash-all-the-time. Primefac (talk) 06:20, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Primefac: I may have found a work around. The LPSA is using flash for their main profile pages, but there are subpages for each player called "Kireki" (棋歴), and there are links to these on the profile pages which can be opened as a separate browser window; for example, pages like this and this. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Please tell me the numbers match.... Primefac (talk) 10:17, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "match", but the base url for all of the pages is joshi-shogi.com and then there is a 5-digit number added for each player. The LPSA website currently has profiles for sixteen members, and they each seem to have a specific numerical identifier. I'm not sure whether that "number" has a particular meaning or is just chosen at random, but adding it to the base url will take you to each individual's record page. For reference, the individual numbers are as follows: Mana Watanabe (11518), Hiromi Nakakura (11531), Saori Shimai (11496), Kaori Uekawa (11494), Yoko Funato (11491), Ayano Hori (11521), Kazuko Yamashita (11502), Tamao Kano (11514), Akiko Takojima (11500), Noriko Terashita (11505), Natsuko Fujimori (11509), Mayumi Kanda (11507), Akiko Nakakura (11529), Mika Oba (11524). -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Primefac: I completely forgot about this and was only reminded of it after recently creating an article for a new LPSA professional. Obviously, there's no rush here, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to use the information provided above to "fix" the infobox link issue for LPSA professionals. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:48, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Give me a few days to remind myself of what's going on and what needs doing, and I'll get back to you. Primefac (talk) 09:48, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

That was actually easier than I was expecting (big walls of text threw me off); the URL base in the template has been updated, so all that's left is to update the |lpsa= values. Primefac (talk) 17:34, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help with this Primefac. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Any time. Primefac (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Hometown or birthplace?

@Ish ishwar and Primefac: I'm wondering whether it might be a good idea to tweak the |hometown= parameter to is referring to the place where someone was born and not really the place they're from (i.e. were they grew up and were raised). Some Japanese are born overseas (most likely due to one of their parent's jobs), but return at some point when their family returns. The JSA lists the 出身 (shusshin) for each of its professionals on their individual profile pages, but it's more of the official/registered place of birth type of thing than anything else. The word "shusshin" often ends up being translated as "hometown" more often than not for convenience reasons, but it's use is more broader and means other things as well. Anyway, the reason I'm asking about this now is because I think the information in main infobox and category section of Aya Uchiyama is probably why the template {{Use dmy dates}} has been recently added to the article a couple of times even though it's not really applicable. Perhaps, the Wikidata for Uchiyama is telling people that British English should be used in the article because Uchiyama was born in the UK. There is only one other Japanese professional who was born overseas, but the JSA doesn't list his place of birth as his hometown; so, there's no issue with any date-related templates being added to the article about him. If changing the template is not needed, then perhaps there's a syntaxy way to let bots and others know that Uchiyama isn't a UK nationale and thus there's no MOS:TIES reason to use British English. Any opinions on this? -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Could change the parameter name from |hometown= to |birth_place=, could probably clear things up. I don't think any BLP infobox uses "home town" like it's "the place where someone grew up", though I do no know of a few slow-burning edit wars on some articles where people think that's what should be in there... Primefac (talk) 06:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Primefac. A parameter change might not have the desired effect based on what you’ve posted above. Is there any type of syntax that could be added to the article to tell bots or scripts to stop adding {{use dmy dates}} to the article? I tried to explain things at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Aya Uchiyama date format, but have yet to receive a response. The template, however, was re-added and it appears to be being done using WP:AWB. Since it’s being added using AWB, it’s likely going to keep being re-added each it’s remove unless there’s some way to tell AWB not to do so. Any suggestions on how that might be done? — Marchjuly (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Update: the date template matter appears to be in the process of being sorted out. — Marchjuly (talk) 12:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, someone refusing to acknowledge that they're doing something incorrectly "but I'm done breaking things now" is not an issue with the template, and had it continued I would have said something at their talk. Primefac (talk) 19:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you again for looking into this. FWIW, I totally get that trying to automate certain maintenance/cleanup tasks on Wikipedia can really make a difference given how big the project is. I also get that there will be bugs and other teething-pains that will need to be worked through whenever you try to do something like that. Anyway, I hope this will no longer be an issue with the Uchiyama article. As for the parameter matter, there's probably a clear legal distinction made between "birthplace" and "hometown", and there are different words for the two also in Japanese depending on context; in common Wikipedia infobox usage, on the other hand, that distinction probably doesn't matter except in cases like the edit-wars you mentioned above. Some infoboxes seem to use |born= to cover DOB and POB, some use |origin= for POB; so, it probably doesn't matter much here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)