Talk:William & Mary Law School

School Seal

While I'm sure reasonable minds could disagree as to the importance of this, the school very rarely uses the name Mashall-Wythe and the associated school seal. After a College-wide rebranding several years ago, the law school identifies much more with the cycpher/text logo. Please consider this before changing the school logo on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.218.221.137 (talk) 22:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for your interest in improving the English Wikipedia. While your revisions were no doubt made in good faith, it is preferred that official seals, when available, are placed first in the Infobox University and Infobox law school templates. This custom is also followed in articles like United States Army. While they may not be image most commonly associated with the school – see University of Miami and Pennsylvania State University – heraldic objects like seals and coats of arms often have a strong historical association with the institution. In the case of Marshall–Wythe, the seal has been used since the law school's refounding in 1922 and dates back to the eighteenth century, when it was designed by George Wythe and used as the College's original seal. Promotional logos change far more frequently and, in most cases, are simply fancy wordmark anyway. That's not to say that commonly-used names or images used for branding purpose are unimportant, hence the article's adherence to WP:COMMONNAME and the still prominent placement of the logo in the infobox. Rockhead126 (talk) 23:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Waking up a really old talk page (sorry), mostly because I'm curious - a lot of what you said makes sense, but William & Mary's use of both the cypher and its coat of arms predates the Wythe seal by almost a century (see: https://brand.wm.edu/). If the goal is historical association and longevity, it almost makes more sense to have the cypher headline the infobox. That said, I understand the desire forthe laws school article to display an insignia unique to the law school rather than a symbol of the university at large. Additionally, not all current law school articles use university seals in their articles, see: University of Virginia School of Law, Harvard Law School, University of Pennsylvania Law School, Michigan Law, Cornell Law School - I'm actually struggling to find schools who DO have their seals in the infobox. Though perhaps those should be changed instead, and the goal is simply standardization, which I can somewhat understand. Kalethan (talk) 05:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

The school has removed the seal from its university branding and the law school name is not even Marshall-Wythe anymore, the name was changed. See the branding logos here: https://brand.wm.edu/index.php/school-logos/. The seal is obsolete because the school changed its name to remove the Marshall-Wythe Melloyello2023 (talk) 16:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Name of the school

Pax Apollo is insisting that the lede of this article name the subject of this article "Marshall-Wythe School of Law." They have provided no evidence that this is the name of the subject. It may be worth mentioning in the "History" section - supported by reliable sources, of course - but this doesn't belong in the lede without any evidence that this is the formal or legal name of the subject. Even if it is the formal or legal name of the subject, it may at best be appropriate to include that name as a parenthetical in the lede sentence to avoid confusing readers. ElKevbo (talk) 13:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

It is the name of the school and well-known to graduates. I will concede that a casual reader might be unaware of it (and I don't object to the title of the entry being "William & Mary Law School" since I think someone unfamiliar with the law school would probably search for it that way), but it is the name of the school. It is in the seal. The school itself does use it. I am in communication with many graduates of it and they all know it as "Marshall-Wythe." Pax Apollo (talk) 14:09, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Pax Apollo That's fine- but Wikipedia titles articles with whatever the most commonly used name is, used by a preponderance of independent reliable sources- not just graduates. You will need to show that "Marshall-Wythe" is the most commonly used name. 331dot (talk) 14:13, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my earlier reply, I didn't and don't propose changing the name of the article. I simply added mention within the article of the actual name of the school. I haven't yet read a reason not to include that. Pax Apollo (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, it should be included as a secondary name in the lead, which I have done. The initial name, however, should match the title. 331dot (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

PaxApollo is incorrect; Marshall-Wythe is not the name of the school. It used to be the name of the school, but the Marshall-Wythe name was removed. I am a recent alum who graduated this year. While PaxApollo probably has spoken to alums who know it as Marshall-Wythe, they would have graduated several years ago.

The name change was confirmed to me by the law school's administration.

The old seal that PaxApollo references also is no longer used. The school has updated its branding guidelines to remove that seal from the approved logos list. See here: https://brand.wm.edu/index.php/school-logos/

The seal should be removed from the page for accuracy. Melloyello2023 (talk) 16:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome to upload a fair use version of the current logo(though you may need some help via Files for Upload). You could also communicate with the school and request that they upload a fair use version of the logo using the same process. I assume they wouldn't want to just release their logo for use under Wikipedia's license(which provides for reuse for any purpose with attribution). 331dot (talk) 16:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to do so myself but I can communicate with the school's IT department as you suggested.

I did also find a page on the school's website to support the school's name change: https://law.wm.edu/about/factoids/#:~:text=Wythe%20became%20William%20%26%20Mary's—and,by%20the%20ABA%20since%201932.

I have already updated the introductory sentence to indicate that the school is "formerly known as the Marshall-Wythe School of Law". Melloyello2023 (talk) 16:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

If you communicate with the school, whomever there attempts to upload the file and possibly add it should read conflict of interest and paid editing. 331dot (talk) 16:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@Melloyello2023: Where on that website does it say that the school's name changed? And where on this website does it say that this seal is no longer used? Please remember that (a) a seal is not the same as a logo and (b) universities and colleges often makes claims about seals and their usage that we are not required to obey (e.g., it's common for them to say that all uses have to be approved but we don't work for them and don't need their approval). ElKevbo (talk) 23:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)