Talk:Vasily Margelov

Margelov and Naval Rifle units

See that talkpage for a discussion of Margelov's time spent serving with naval rifle units. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

WP:BOLDLY copied from 'Talk:Soviet Airborne Forces:'

B.Velikov can you add some references, either here or at the Margelov article, for your latest edit? Buckshot06 (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Certainly

• http://l-battalion.blogspot.com/2016/05/1_31.html - a source regarding the regiment itself. You can read the fourth and fifth line stating: "Командовал полком майор В.Ф.Маргелов, (будущий Герой Советского Союза, после войны генерал армии, Командующий ВДВ СССР) пехотинец с большим боевым опытом." (The regiment was commanded by Major V. F. Margelov, (future Hero of the Soviet Union, post-war Army General, Commander of the Airborne Troops of the USSR), infantryman with vast combat experience). It paints a very grim and desperate situation of the regiment. The warriors from th eelements, which were used to form it, were already heavily exhausted from fighting, the newly established formation was underfed, undersupplied, lacking fuel for its automobiles and lacking fourage for its horses to the extend that the animals were collapsing and dying. The commander and the political commisar of the division reported, that the unit was not combat ready.
• https://morpex.ru/istoriya-morskoie-pexoti/margelov-vasilij-filippovich-v-voenno-morskom-flote - this is an article about Margelov on the official site of the Russian Marines Veteran Association with the headline Vasiliy Filipovich Margelov in the Navy. The first two-thirds of the article are basically "No mean to disrespect, he is a great guy, but..." and then the last third of it starts with:

Well then, what is up with V.F. Margelov in the Soviet Navy actually? [Так, что же было с Маргеловым В.Ф. в ВМФ СССР на самом деле?]

On 21 November 1941 Margelov was relieved from the position of commander of the 3rd Guards Regiment of the 1st Guards Division of the People's Resistance (1-я гвардейская дивизия народного ополчения, in parenthesys the author explains that the Guards designation here was just Communist Party rhetoric and these were merely last minute rag-tag formations, organised from the remnants of units, which have suffered heavy losses and were routed by the enemy, not the actual elite GUARDS formations. With his relief from this position Major Margelov was simultaneously appointed as the commander of the 1st Specific (in the meaning of Irregular) Ski Regiment of Sailors of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet [майор Маргелов В.Ф. был назначен командиром 1 Особого лыжного полка моряков Краснознаменного Балтийского флота], which was "formed out of coastal defence (artillery) and other auxiliary shore services personnel (CLEARLY NOT MARINES written in the parenthesys) at the beginning of November 1941 in Kronstadt" [Полк был сформирован из моряков береговой обороны и других вспомогательных служб КБФ (явно не морская пехота) в начале ноября 1941 года в Кронштадте.]. This provisionary ski regiment of sailors was attached to the The Commander of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Admiral Tributs has personally issued the combat order for the ski regiment to break through the German lines in support of the rifle division and regain the Shlisselburg Fortress. [Командующий КБФ адмирал Трибуц лично поставил боевую задачу на ввод лыжного полка в прорыв для развития успеха стрелковой дивизии и овладения Шлиссельбургом.] In the night of 27-28 November (so a week after Margelov's appointment) without any support from the rifle division, no artillery support, the sailors have attempted to cross the thin ice of the Ladoga Lake and break through the German defences, but failed to do so. On November 28, 1941 Major V. F. Margelov was heavily wounded and evacuated to a military hospital. As a result of their short-comings the commander and the political commissar of the rifle division were sacked, tried and summary shot dead.

After his discharge from the hospital on January 22, 1942, Vasiliy Filipovich Margelov was appointed Commander of the 218th Rifle Regiment/ 80th Rifle Division/ 54th Army of the Leningrad Front. With that, the combat career of the legendary airborne warrior in the ranks of the "black coats" («черных бушлатов» = the marines) was done in just two months.

Once again 1) out of these two months he was recuperating from his wounds all the time, but the initial week (Вот и всё! Практически – одна неделя! - And that's it! Practically - one week!) and 2) his regiment was not part of the marines. There was a clear distinction between marine brigades, regiments and battalions on one side (бригады, полки и батальоны морской пехоты), which remained part of the Navy structure and naval rifle brigades, regiments and detachments on the other (морские стрелковье бригады, полки и отряды), formed out of naval personnel OTHER THAN MARINES, which was surplus to combat requirements (there were no major naval engagements, so there was no need for most of the crews of the navy's ships) and was therefore pressed into infantry formations and transferred to the army, as was clearly the case with Margelov's regiment. This was not something unheard of, as airborne corps were already converted into rifle divisions and transferred from the air force to the army, so were NKVD divisions.

The author Evgeniy Mikhaylovich Verkhozin concludes this article with the following: "This is also confirmed by the documentary book of the VDV officer Boris Akimovich Kostin, named "Margelov" and published in 2005. In it he quotes the memories of the former Chief of Staff of the Baltic Fleet Rear Admiral Yuri Aleksandrovich Panteleyev. He knew personally the regiment's hand-to-hand combat instructor Lieutenant Ida Naumovna Klebanova (Ида Наумовна Клебанова). She has dragged out of the battle 36 wounded fighters from the regiment (including Major Margelov himself)." [for her actions she was nominated for the Order of Lenin and was awarded the Order For Bravery Nr. 66123 («За отвагу» № 66123). This is also written in this book: https://nestorbook.ru/uDrive/file/492/cb86e9730bc34eb037e78e271b596daf I do not know which book that is. I just typed in her name in Google and this popped up under the results. I am willing to bet this is exactly Kostin's book. It is in Chapter I named "The Bloody 1941". You can see Lt. Klebanova mentioned in the end of page 34 and the beginning of page 35].

Also in this book you can read the following: He has gathered his subordinated commanders and laying out the situation, Margelov said: If you refuse to go out and attack, I will not force you to do so, I'd rather go willingly in front the firing squad. The sailors said nothing, they decided to carry out the attack... [Собрав своих командиров и объяснив ситуацию, Маргелов сказал: «Если вы откажетесь идти в атаку, я вас насильно не поведу, лучше сам пойду под расстрел» (А. Маргелов, В. Маргелов, «Десантник № 1 генерел армии Маргелов»). Моряки, не сговариваясь, решили идти в бой…] (page 35)

"The bravery of the brethren has sunk deep in my heart. I want that the airborne troopers take upon themselves to carry on the glorious traditions of the senior brother [ie the marines as the senior brother and the VDV as the younger brother] and to take them forward with honor. For that reason I have introduced the tel'nyashki, just to change the colour to that of the sky - light blue. And then at the Supreme Military Council presided over by the Minister of Defence Marshal of the Soviet Union Grechko the commander of the Navy Admiral of the Soviet Union Gorshkov bursted out in fury how the airborne troopers are trying to steal the tel'nyashki from the marines, Margelov answered briskly how "I have fought in the ranks of the marines and I know what the airborne troopers are deserving of and what not." [«Удаль “братишек”, — говорил он, — запала мне в сердце. Мне хочется, чтобы десантники переняли славные традиции старшего брата, морской пехоты, и с честью их продолжали. Для этого я и ввел десантникам тельняшки. Только полоски на них под цвет неба — голубые. А когда на Военном совете, проводимом министром обороны Маршалом Советского Союза А. А. Гречко, С. Г. Горшков, командующий ВМФ Адмирал Флота СССР, начал бурчать, что, мол, десантники крадут у моряков тельняшки, Маргелов в присутствии всех резко ответил: «Я сам в морской пехоте воевал и знаю, что десантники заслуживают, а что — нет!»] (А. Маргелов, В. Маргелов, «Десантник № 1 генерал армии Маргелов»). (page 37-38) These two quotes are from the book "Airborne Trooper Nr.1 Army General Margelov", written by his son Alexander, who was also a VDV officer (http://ru.wiki.x.io/wiki/Маргелов,_Александр_Васильевич) and was the first to drop from an An-12 cargo airplane inside a BMD-1 in order to test the Kentavr multiple parachute system.

To me it is clear that Admiral of the Soviet Union Gorshkov and Army General Margelov were looking for a verbal fight to establish their own territory and Margelov took a gamble by stating that he has actually fought among the marines, in order to shut Gorshkov up. All it took was for Gorshkov to retort "Really? In which unit?", but he was himself uncertain of Margelov's background and decided not to risk it and make a fool of himself, so he let it go.

Any way, Evgeniy Mikhaylovich Verkhozin finishes his article on the Marine Veterans Association website with the following sentence: "So, while we respect the distinguished people and their merits, let's not question the need for a marine corps as a separate branch and let's not doubt its own prestige!" [Так что давайте, уважая по-настоящему заслуженных людей, не ставить под сомнение необходимость, самостоятельность и престиж морской пехоты!], which just shows the attitude of the Russian marines about the attempts to put them in one basket with the VDV.B.Velikov (talk) 14:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah-ha; a naval rifle [unit], not Soviet Naval Infantry. Buckshot06 (talk) 15:15, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

More like a rifle formation under the army, made up of "repurposed" naval personnel.B.Velikov (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Cheers. Have you added some of this to the Margelov article? Buckshot06 (talk) 16:01, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

No. Feel free to do so, if you like. I am planning to complete the composition of the Soviet military districts around 1989. I also wanted to complete the article about the Russian marines to a state similar to that of the VDV, but this also takes a lot of source filtration. This is how I know about the distinction between marine brigades and naval rifle brigades. Which also reminds me, that for this specific reason the article should be renamed from "Russian Naval Infantry" to "Russian Marine Infantry" or "Russian Marines". I mean, the proof is in the naming itself. In Russian военно-морская means naval and морская means marine or maritime, therefore:

• ВОЕННО-морская авиация - NAVAL aviation
• МОРСКАЯ пехота - MARINE infantry B.Velikov (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I hear you, but the WP:COMMONNAME of the most authoritative sources in English is 'Naval Infantry,' and has been for thirty years. We do not make these kind of decisions ourselves; we follow what the most reliable sources say. And yes the composition of the military districts circa 1989 would be helpful; do remember however to add your sources. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

And the difference between 'Naval Rifle' (odds and sods of VMF dispatched to the front) and 'Naval Infantry' is not too difficult, just comes from reading histories like that of the 27th Guards Motor Rifle Division.. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

That's the thing. The naval personnel, that was transferred to naval rifle brigades was not temporarily dispatched to the army. The sailors departed the Navy for good and became part of the Ground Forces. This is also what happened to the Airborne Corps, which were transformed into Guards Rifle Divisions and deployed to the Battle of Stalingrad. This is also what happened to the NKVD divisions. In the course of the war these formations were transformed into Rifle Divisions of the Ground Forces, never to return to their respective armed service post-war. The Russians make a very clear distinction between the marines and the naval rifles. This is a quote from Evgeniy Abramov's book "The Black Death. Soviet Naval Infantry In Combat" («ЧЕРНАЯ СМЕРТЬ» СОВЕТСКАЯ МОРСКАЯ ПЕХОТА В БОЮ), Moscow 2009, ISBN 978-5-699-36724-5 : "Формирование морских стрелковых бригад началось значительно позднее, в ноябре-декабре 1941 r., когда в соответствии с решением Государственного Комитета Обороны от 18 октября 1941 r. было сформировано 25 морских стрелковых бригад (от 61-й до 85-й включительно). В отличие от бригад морской пехоты, морские стрелковые бригады создавались не в составе действуюших флотов и флотилий, а в военных округах: Уральском (61-я, 62-я, 63-я, 64-я и 65-я бригады), Приволжском (66-я,67-я,84-я и 85-я бригады), Северо-Кавказском (68-я, 76-я, 77-я, 78-я, 79-я, 80-я, 81-я, 82-я и 83-я бригады), Сибирском (69-я, 70-я, 71-я, 72-я и 73-я бригады), Среднеазиатском (74-я и 75-я бригады). На укомплектование этих бригад Военно-Морской Флот выделил 39052 чел."

which translates into English as follows: "The formation of Naval Rifle Brigades started considerably later, in November - December 1941, when, in line with a Resolution of the State Council for Defence 25 naval rifle brigades were formed (ranging from from the 61st to the 85th). UNLIKE the brigades of marine infantry, the naval rifle brigades were formed NOT AS PART OF THE ACTIVE FLEETS AND FLOTILLAS, BUT IN THE MILITARY DISTRICTS: in the Ural MD (61st, 62nd, 63rd, 64th and 65th brigades) in the Volga MD (66th Naval Rifle Brigade (ru:66-я морская стрелковая бригада), 67th, 84th and 85th Naval Rifle Brigades), in the North Caucasus MD (68th, 76th, 77th, 78th, 79th, 80th, 81st, 82nd and 83rd brigades), in the Siberian MD (69th, 70th, 71st, 72nd and 73rd), Central Asian MD (74th and the 75th brigades). For the formation of said brigades, the Navy has dispensed with 39 052 men." (see also ru:Категория:Бригады_морской_пехоты_СССР)

The distinction between the Fleets and Flotillas and the Military Districts is very purposefully taken into account, because the MDs are GROUND FORCES, not joint formations. In wartime they form ARMIES. There are superb organization charts in this book. Unfortunately you cannot see them. Things are crystal clear the moment you look at them. In the charts of the Fleets, there are only marine infantry brigades, regiments and battalions. Not a single naval rifle unit. The naval rifle brigades are exclusively listed in the charts about the Ground Forces. One such example on page 427 is a chart named Naval rifle brigades in the Battle for Stalungrad (Морские стрелковые бригады в Сталинградской битве):

• Commander of the Stalingrad Front (Командующий Сталинградским фронтом)
  • 64th Army (64-я армия)
    • 66th Naval Rifle Brigade (66-я морская стрелковая бригада)
    • 154th Naval Rifle Brigade (154-я морская стрелковая бригада)
  • 62nd Army (62-я армия)
    • 42nd Separate Rifle Brigade (42-я отдельная стрелковая бригада) - formerly the 42nd Naval Rifle Brigade, formed by about 2 000 sailors from the White Sea Naval Base of the White Sea Flotilla
    • 92nd Separate Rifle Brigade (92-я отдельная стрелковая бригада) - formerly the 92nd Naval Rifle Brigade, formed by sailors of the Northern and the Pacific Fleets

It doesn't get any clearer than that where did the naval rifles belong. B.Velikov (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)