Talk:University of Bologna

Pablo Iglesias Turrión, Secretary-General of Podemos

It seems that the listing of P.I. Turrión as notable alumni is wrong. I can't find any sources for that. It seems he studied in Madrid and did his PhD there too. I think this needs at least a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.239.22.253 (talk) 23:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Not the oldest university?

Not sure how we define 'University' but the University of al-Karaouine http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/University_of_al-Karaouine which was founded long before the University of Bologna which would make it the oldest university in the world? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.167.161 (talk) 01:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Just to support that it is not the oldest university, There is also Ez-Zitouna University, which is still operating and older than al-Karaouine and Bologna University http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/University_of_Ez-Zitouna — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.55.83.238 (talk) 17:15, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Ez-Zitouna was founded as a madrasa and didn't become a university until 1956. And by definition madrasas are not, and never have been, universities. Thomas.W ^talk 17:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Proposed resolution: After the assertion about being the oldest university: "It is not the oldest degree-granting institution in the world; that distinction belongs to the University of al-Karaouine according to UNESCO and the Guiness Book of World Records." Triplingual (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Triplingual: Al-Karaouine being claimed as the oldest degree-granting institution in the world is totally irrelevant to this article, and deserves no mention here, since it takes a lot more than just granting degrees to be a university (per the mainstream definition of "university"). Making any comparison between Al-Karaouine and the University of Bologna, or any other mediaeval university, a comparison between apples and oranges. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 11:42, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
  • @Thomas.W: I think it might be more apples and crabapples. In other words, I expect that the average (en-US) reader reads a claim of being the oldest university as being a claim of being the oldest institution of higher education. It's not that you can't get to the distinction and the use of 'university' here as a term of art rather than in its conventional (en-US) use from this article, but it's more than a click away. As it says in the Wikipedia article on writing better articles, "If [the article's] subject is amenable to definition, then the first sentence should give a concise definition: where possible, one that puts the article in context for the nonspecialist. Similarly, if the subject is a term of art, provide the context as early as possible." Though the University of Bologna itself is not a term of art, one of the key aspects of its notability is, and that should get contextualized. Triplingual (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

@Triplingual: It doesn't matter what the "average (en-US) reader" thinks, we're an encyclopaedia, striving to provide information about just about anything that is as factually correct as humanly possible, not a site with easy-to-read information for average readers. And Al-Karaouine, Es-Zitouna and all the others were founded as madrasahs, which weren't, aren't and never have been universities by the mainstream definition of a (mediaeval) university, i.e. the one that we go by, and thus don't deserve a mention in an article about the University of Bologna. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 16:16, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

• @Afg96: Re. your continuing reversions, please see this^^^ discussion; Thomas.W sums it up excellently. ——SerialNumber54129 16:33, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Serial Number 54129: Re. User talk:Thomas.W is wrong. He is putting his own bias opinion into this. He says that those institutions were founded as madrasahs but he is factually wrong because they were degree granting institutions for both religious and non religious sciences that is why Guinness Book of Record recognized it as such so did Encyclopedia Britannica. In fact his comment is laughable to any historian or academic because the word madrasah simply means school in Arabic. That is like me saying Harvard Law School is not a university because it has the word school in it. He has a bias Eurocentric view on history and likes to white wash historical facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afg96 (talk • contribs)

• @Afg96: One of the criteria that defines a university is that the degrees are granted by the university and to a for all universities common standard, which automatically excludes madrasahs, since degrees at madrasahs are granted by individual teachers to their own individual standards. So no, madrasahs are not, and have never been, universities... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 18:43, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Thomas.W: You seem to be poorly educated on the subject. First of all the word madrasahs simply means school! It is an Arabic word just like we refer to HLS (Harvard Law School) as a school so did people back in the day referred to all educational facilities as madrasahs! Secondly what sets University of Karueein from regular schools is that the degree was granted by the head of the school not individual teacher as you mentioned. I don't know where you came up with that, probably made it up I assume. Secondly even if University of Karueein is not considered a university University of Bologna would still not be considered the oldest university because Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt was created in 970. Furthermore the hypocrisy here is unfathomable. University of Bologna itself used to be a Catholic bishop school that did not grant degrees only titles that were granted to students by their respective bishops, I wonder why you don't hold University of Bologna to the same standard? Hm.... maybe it is due to your Eurocentric world view? And lastly having visited Bologna recently I never met an Italian that said, this university is the oldest university in the world. I think even the Italian version of the wiki does not purport such a fallacious statement. Also as mentioned before Guiness Book of Record recognized University of Karueein due to the fact that it was the oldest DEGREE granting institution! Which confirms my initial statement that the degrees were awarded to student by the school itself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Afg96 (talk • contribs)

• @Afg96: I know what madrasah means, and also know what a madrasah is and how degrees were/are granted there (and Guinness Book of World Records isn't an authority on anything, and doesn't trump scientific/academic sources). Mediaeval madrasahs were not universities, period, since they lacked the most defining characteristic of a university, i.e. degrees granted by the university as a whole, and to a standard that was common for all mediaeval universities, so that a degree granted by one university was recognised also by all other universities. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 19:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Thomas.W: I don't think you do, you make no sense whatsoever. University of Bologna itself would be considered a madrasa. You seem to have a racist right wing view on history. Let me guess you are an old grumpy American? Am I right? Have you even been to Bologna? Probably not. You still haven't proved to me that University of Karueein did not grant degrees where are your proofs? Secondly Guiness sends agents to investigate each claim before they put anything in their text books, their text books can be used as an academic source. Secondly Encyclopedia Britannica says the same thing if you want further proof. Let me ask you what are your educational credentials if you even have any?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Afg96 (talk • contribs)

• That's total hogwash. Don't discuss things you obviously know nothing about. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 19:37, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

University of Al Quaraouiyine was established a century before Bologna. Get over it. Xycksa (talk) 09:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

No, the University of Al Quaraouiyine was established in 1963, before then it was a madrasah, and madrasahs are not, and have never been, universities, for the reasons given further up in this discussion... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 11:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Here we are again. The intro has been changed with unsourced content claiming that other were the first universities. So these are the criteria: a university covers everything not just or mainly religious matters, and the separation is somewhat coded and granted. Scholars and professors have a specific organization. Scholars already had higher education. Degrees are granted by universities, not individuals, and are legally recognized. So if sources (stating that these criteria were all met by the Asian Universities) are not provided within 3 days, I am going to challenge the added content and remove it. TriangoloDiTartaglia (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

It's easy to see what's going on here. Someone wants to exclude madrasahs founded before 1088 from contention for "oldest university", so they researched for some characteristics of grown-ups' schools that are (a) possessed by European universities founded at and after 1088 and (b) are NOT possessed by the madrasahs in dispute. After noting the differences between the madrasahs and the medieval European schools, the cherry-picker then tailor-made a so-called "definition" of "university" that would exclude the madrasahs in dispute from meeting the definition of "universities", thereby leaving the title of "oldest university" for Bologna. Everyone who reads this talk-page will see that that is "cherry-picking data" (about which I believe there is a Wikipedia article). "One of the criteria that defines a university is ...". WHO SAYS that that is one of the criteria? YOU say it, but the REASON you say it is not because you believe it to be true or essential, but, rather, so that you won't have to admit that the madrasahs in dispute are universities older than Bologna's. I'd never encountered this definition of "university" before I saw it on this talk-page, and I suspect nobody else had either. Perhaps, when the founders of Bologna's university invented the word "university", this word had in their minds a definition that would have excluded any madrasahs already in existence at the time. But that's irrelevant. The word "university" might not mean in OUR minds the same thing that it meant in the minds of the people who invented the word while founding Bologna's university. Also, if a madrasah changed its NAME in the 20th century to include the WORD "university", that does not mean that it was only at that moment changed from "something-not-a-university" into "a university". It's not a change in the THING, but, rather, only in the thing's NAME.

The definition cited is not even grammatical: "One of the criteria that defines a university is that the degrees are granted by the university and to a for all universities common standard, ...". How does one grant a degree to "a for all universities common standard"? I thought one granted a degree to a STUDENT. What IS "a for all universities common standard?" But I'm not asking for that text to be edited for clarity. There should be no text at all defining "university". We all know what "university" means. Or we can look up "university" in Wiktionary. And by the meaning we all know, these madrasahs in dispute founded before 1088 were universities. Bologna is the oldest university in the world that meets certain criteria, and the article should be edited to say so. But Bologna is not the oldest university in the world.2600:1700:6759:B000:60E4:4CDF:3898:2FB2 (talk) 06:56, 21 November 2023 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson

The name change

The article suggests that 'its new name, since 2000, is Alma mater studiorum (Latin for "fostering mother of studies"), to remember it as the first university in the world.' is very debatable. It is certainly the oldest continuous university in Europe. However, several Asian and African universities were founded before Bologna and of those, Kairouan (Qarawiyin University)(founded 859 AD) and Al-Azhar (founded 970 AD) are generally regarded as the oldest continuous universities in the world. Even earlier than these two were Nalanda University and Takshashila University in India, Nanjing University in China, Alexandria University in Egypt, Alcuin's School in France and even Plato's Academy.

All these are not Universities, at least not in the exact sense of the definition. Alexandia university hardly existed, the others are mostly school. The Al-Azhar is the only other possible older university, but it's dabatable, since the word "university" was born with the University of Bologna itself.

Correct. In fact in the italian version of the article the statement is slightly different: "è la più antica università del mondo occidentale" (is the oldest university in the western world). --Biopresto 15:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

More original content

This page appears to largely be a rewrite of http://www.eng.unibo.it/PortaleEn/University/Our+History/default.htm -- perhaps someone more familiar with the University could contribute some more original content?

Citation for enrolment

I'm unable to find a "enrolment OR enrollment" or "student numbers" result that provides a real number for student headcount at UoB. Can someone dig one up?

Look here: http://www.miur.it/scripts/IU/vIU0_bis.asp 95771 enrolled in 2005/6 --Biopresto 09:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Copyright problem

In this series of edits, copyright infringement was added to this article from [1]. Internet archives verify that their use of the material predates ours. This material will either need to be rewritten from scratch or removed. I am blanking the content to permit contributors an opportunity to address this prior to its removal. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.eng.unibo.it/PortaleEn/University/Our+History/default.htm http://www.eng.polocesena.unibo.it/PoloCesenaEn/Campus+Branch/Structures/Academic+structures. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:34, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Why is there no History of the University?

Why is there no history of a 1,000 year old university that is possibly the first such institution in Western Europe? Was it deleted at some point? It seems very odd that there is nothing compiled. There is a lot of documentation on this topic but absolutely nothing is written here. That fauxpaux certainly lessens the value of Wikipedia as a knowledge/research tool. Stevenmitchell (talk) 01:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

University at Fez

Looking at this edit, I find it excessive to mention the University of Al-Karaouine in the WP:LEAD of this article. Al-Karaouine, if it is to be mentioned at all, should be mentioned somewhere tucked away in the body.

On the other hand I also disagree with attempt to portray Bologna's claim to being the oldest university as undisputed. It is disputed, the lead should make note of that, but only very briefly.VR _talk 12:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

That seems like an acceptable compromise to me. I'm implementing something along those lines. Athenean (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

1088 date of founding appears to have no historical basis

In A History of the University in Europe: Volume 1, Universities in the Middle Ages ed. Hilde de Ridder-Symoens, (Cambridge, CUP), p. 4, Walter Rüegg states that the supposed founding date of 1088 has no historical basis at all. The date was in fact chosen as a 'conventional date' in 1888 by a jubilee committee chaired by Giosuè Carducci, and there is no published reliable historical research which confirms the date. On the contrary, a number of books confirm that no such event took place in 1088, including H. Rashdall, The Universities of Europe in the Middle Ages, Vol. 1, (Oxford, 1895) pp. 118-9; H. Grundmann, Vom Ursprung der Universität im Mittelalter (Darmstadt 1957, 2nd ed. 1960), p.40: and even Sorbelli, Storia della Università di Bologna Vol. 1 (Bologna 1940) (written for the university's '850th birthday') does not mention the date. MinorProphet (talk) 09:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Since in Irnerius it is stated that the scholar founded the law school in 1084/1088, I think this could be the milestone used by Carducci et al. However, give that a personal idea is not a source, I could look for help by the local librarians in finding good sources about the founding date. I could start from here (sorry, it is in Italian). Best, --Giuseppe (talk) 10:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2015

Please modify the paragraph: "It has branch centres in Imola, Ravenna, Forlì, Sicily, Cesena and Rimini and a branch center abroad in Buenos Aires" as it follows: "It has Campuses in Cesena, Forlì, Ravenna Rimini and a branch center abroad in Buenos Aires." Imola and Sicily as Campuses is an incorrect information.. Please check: http://www.unibo.it/en/university/campuses-and-structures

And then in the paragraph:"The University has about 85,500 students in its 23 schools." Please modify the number "23" in 11, that is the correct nuber. Please check: http://www.unibo.it/en/university/campuses-and-structures/schools

Thanks Dave firecrackers (talk) 10:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Done sst✈^(discuss) 05:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2016

University of Taxila is older than UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA. Philosophersden (talk) 12:26, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

 Not done the University of Taxila (if it was a university - opinions are divided) was wiped out about 1500 years ago, whereas, as stated in the article, the University of Bologna is the "oldest continuously-operating university in the world" - Arjayay (talk) 14:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Name is incorrect

The correct name is "Alma Mater Studiorum Università di Bologna"

http://www.normateneo.unibo.it/Statuto.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Turokan (talk • contribs) 21:33, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Rephrasing lead sentence

I have rephrased the lead sentence, which is not only historically inaccurate, but is also a misrepresentation of the facts. To call the University of Bologna the 'oldest university in the world' is factually incorrect, given that other institutions like Taxila and Nalanda are technically contenders for that title. The correct way to refer to the Uni of Bologna would be to call it the oldest university in continuous operation, which is what I have changed it to. If anyone has an issue with it, feel free to discuss it here. Tiger7253 (talk) 13:34, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Ranking section and overall structure

I was wondering if the ranking section should include national as well as global metrics? I consider this a potential source of interest and information for users as it's ranked number one (overall) both nationally and throughout the Southern Europe. The Wiki pages for UK universities include national statistics.

Furthermore, I feel like the format of the page could use a lot of work and consolidation. Specifically, it has a rather clumsy and disorganised built for such a major and important university and some of the sections have a stub feeling to them.

Anyone up for the task or should I try? I'm slightly hesitant as I'm not a native speaker.

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2019

THE is not 180, but 168 [2]

200.131.225.66 (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

 Done--Goldsztajn (talk) 20:50, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

"Bologna Universtiy" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Bologna Universtiy. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 10#Bologna Universtiy until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC678 22:59, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Guinness World Records

Guinness World Records says, "The University of Bologna, Italy, was founded in 1088 and is the oldest one in Europe." and not the oldest in the world. Shubuhat (talk) 15:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Not the oldest university according to UNESCO

UNESCO says about Medina of Fez, "Founded in the 9th century and home to the oldest university in the world..." Shubuhat (talk) 15:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

References

This has been discussed to death at Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation. You'll have to read through the archives to find it all. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I sense a White Supremacist agenda. Why deny facts endorsed by UNESCO too? Do you claim to know better? Shubuhat (talk) 09:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA. And then read the previous discussions where you will find answers to your question. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

DAMS

It was instituted in 1971 as a spinf-off of the Faculty of Letters and Arts, but it needs a specific WP article. Possibily, it can be translated the one of the Italian version of WP. Its history has been linked to four Satanic homocides which took place between December 1982 and November 1983The related sources report also the disappearence of the judge Paolo Adinolfi and the crimes of the Monster of Florence.Theologian81sp (talk) 09:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)