Talk:The Snow Queen (Kernaghan novel)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:The Snow Queen (Kernaghan novel)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: TechnoSquirrel69 (talk · contribs) 06:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 08:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Starting this review for GARC. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Prose and content

• allures different, less literary word.

   Removed —TS

• in May 2000 bit nitpicky, but along the lines of A Christmas Carol you don't need to mention twice in the same paragraph that it was published in 2000.

   Done —TS

• sets out to track him find him?

   Sure —TS

• expended -> spent

   Sure —TS

• requisite rmv

   Done —TS

• who outfit Gerda with winter supplies provide Gerda

   Not done, I suppose. I find this phrasing to better express how the two women help Gerda and, additionally, they do literally give her some winter outfits. —TS

• she is waylaid by a group of robbers led by Ritva, who kidnap Gerda and murder her attendants -> she is kidnapped by a group of robbers led by Ritva, who murder her attendants

   Done —TS

• They learn from her that Aurore is the Snow Queen haha, introduce what a "Snow Queen" is

  That was silly of me!  Done —TS

• the edge of the world, rmv. I can see what it's communicating, but it's sufficient.

   Comment: This phrasing is intentional; the geography of the novel's world is partly fantastical, and the Pole is depicted as being literally at the end of the world. The phrasing is echoed in sources as well. I'm not entirely opposed to removing it if you insist, but I thought I would provide some context first. —TS

• at the Pole rmv

  As above. —TS

  I mentioned this one for a different reason, as to come to Aurore's palace at the Pole is only two lines after plan their journey to her palace at the edge of the world, the North Pole.

  Ah, I see that now.  Done —TS

• the Mirror of Reason What is this?

  Some kind of magical artifact Kai is obsessed with; it's not explained in a whole lot of detail in the novel either. —TS

  Would be good to gloss this.

   Rephrased —TS

• his labor was a deceit rw

   Done; take a look and let me know what you think. —TS

• novel as it is her favorite work for consistency with tense, use past tense

   Done —TS

• Karelian gloss please

   Removed. I had taken this summary from the Kalevala's article, but this goes unmentioned in the sources covering this novel, so is technically unsourced and possibly undue. —TS

• the original story's Lapp woman From what I understand, best to just call her Sámi.

   Not done. There is some distinction between the two, and sources use that term as well, possibly because of its similarity to the "Lapland woman" phrase used by Andersen. —TS

• a choice shared among several renditions of Andersen's tale, as literary scholar Naomi Wood noted this attribution is a bit strange. Likely unnecessary.

  I'm inclined to agree.  Removed —TS

• deemphasize what you are describing doesn't appear to be deemphasizing, it seems like replacing.

   Comment: Well, I didn't want to say anything to the effect of "remove" or "replace" entirely, because the source doesn't make that claim. Individual tropes or characters may be replaced, but not the entire cultural perception of witchcraft. —TS

  I think the source does make that claim: where the negative stereotypes of old wicked crones and evil enchantresses are replaced by wise, sympathetic sages, healers or shamans, often living in matriarchal communities

  Hmm, I can see how it could be read that way as well. I've made the change for now, but I'll make sure to go back to the source after this review to make sure I'm representing that point accurately. —TS

• depiction of uncleanliness and debauchery -> uncleanliness and debauchery depicted

   Not done; that seems more awkward in the context of the sentence. "... offers an alternative' to the uncleanliness and debauchery depicted that define the men"? —TS

• that define -> of

  As above. "uncleanliness and debauchery depicted of the men"? —TS

• matriarchal matrilineal?

   Not done, even though I probably agree with you. Lehtonen uses matriarchal on the page cited. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ —TS

• act of individualism -> assertion of individualism ?

   Sure —TS

• discouraging conclusion what do you mean here?

   Comment: What Lehtonen says here is "in terms of ethnicity, the fact that Ritva refuses to follow her mother's path [...] is not necessarily a celebratory ending". I'm open to suggestions for alternative phrasing if you think it's a little unclear in the article. —TS

• as a concept, a emdash rather than comma

  Both are correct, if the dash article is to be believed, so this appears to be a stylistic choice.  Not done —TS

• a mysterious and elemental biome wikivoice

   Done. Thanks; rephrased and added another detail to clarify further. —TS

• prospective audience of the novel would view the north of Europe as a distant country under the dominion of magic this is a bit outrageous. I don't think readers think Northern Europe is "under the dominion of magic", and I can't imagine she thinks that they do either. She appears to be speaking metaphorically, or to something less than belief, which should be reworded to clarify what she really means.

   Done. Changed it to a quote, so we can let readers decide what Lehtonen is implying. —TS

• the natural force of the north What is the natural force of the north?

   Rephrased —TS

• The landscapes that Gerda encounter grow increasingly supernatural as she approaches the Pole, which Findon wrote "mirror her emotional journey". What does it mean for an emotional journey to "grow increasingly supernatural"?

   Done; elaborated a little. —TS

• the growth of power clarify the type of power

   Done —TS

• However, Lehtonen wrote that... and this is a problem?

  This was a bit of a non sequitur anyways; moved up to the previous paragraph. —TS

• Some of the information about blurring boundaries between men and women should be moved to the paragraph about subverting gender stereotypes.

   Done —TS

• it is implied that the two women continue on their journey what does this mean?

   Rephrased —TS

Suggestions

• as well as a nomination -> and was nominated

   Sure —TS

• in the pursuit of knowledge -> to pursue knowledge

   Done —TS

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:11, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• [1] Y (even though Bramwell gets the year wrong)
• [4] N

• I can't see what Bramwell is adding here. It only appears to mention Kalevala.
• The relevant text in Lehtonen appears to be "Kernaghan has rewritten Andersen’s tale by adding elements from anthropological descriptions of Northern shamanism and the Finnish national epic Kalevala." which appears to directly contradict the information in the article: Kalevala (1835), a compilation of Karelian and Finnish mythology and epic poetry which includes elements of northern Scandinavian shamanism.. Further, the Karelian origin is unmentioned.

I mistakenly merged the two claims, for some reason. Fixed, and removed the Karelian thing as above. —TS

• [7] I don't have access to Findon, AGF Y

  Let me know if you'd like me to email you this source, as a good bit of the thematic analysis in the article is based on her work. —TS

• [10] Y
• [13] Y
• [18] Y
• [26] Y
• [30] clock "Victorian-era Denmark" vs "the Victorian society" these are different as I'm sure you can understand

   Fixed —TS

Other

• Images appropriately tagged? Y Fair use and PD
• Neutral Y
• Broad and summary style Y Happy with the detail
• Stable Y
• No OR/COPYVIO Y 6.5% Earwig, titles. No issues in spotchecks.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed review, Rollinginhisgrave! I've responded to your comments in line above. Let me know what your thoughts are on the points we seem to disagree on. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've added a few more comments. I hope you didn't read my close reading as overly critical, the article is beautiful like a music box. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: No apologies needed whatsoever! I'm glad you liked the article and I'm grateful for your comments. Don't be afraid to go in depth with article reviews, it reflects well on your standards and your eye for detail. I'm always happy to receive a thorough review, and I'm sure many other editors feel similarly as well. I've been thinking of taking this to FAC in the near future, so I'll need all the feedback I can get. Anyways, replies to your comments are above; let me know what you think! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 06:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Looking good, promoting! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen talk 07:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that a contemporary adaptation of an 1844 fairy tale contains feminist elements and "violates gender expectations"?

• Source: feminist elements, "violates ..."

• ALT1: ... that a contemporary adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen's "The Snow Queen" contains feminist elements and "violates gender expectations"? Source: ibid.
• ALT2: ... that despite its roots in a Christian fairy tale, The Snow Queen incorporates Finnish mythology and Scandinavian shamanism? Source: Interview with author
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/St Melangell's Church, Pennant Melangell
• Comment: No preference between the two hooks, so take your pick! Please let me know if you're unable to access the offline sources; I'm happy to provide copies directly to assist reviewers.

Improved to Good Article status by TechnoSquirrel69 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 6 past nominations.

—TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC).

• Approved with ALT2. New enough (submitted within 4 days of GA), more than long enough (13,120 characters). Well sourced (book, academic journal, magazines, etc.); neutral (opinions expressed attributed to sources); appears free of copyvio (Earwig says unlikely and AGF on Findon which is cited extensively and is an offline source); presentable (tidy looking GA article); and QPQ is done (back in February). Images used in the article are Wikipedia-safe (one illustration originally published in 1916; the main book cover thumbnail used in the article is "Fair Use" though slight quibble is that the "author" is not the same as "illustrator of book cover"). This leaves the hooks. ALT0 and ALT1 are rejected because "violates gender expectations" lacks contextualization within the hooks. (Feel free to rework them and propose again). ALT2 is interesting and checks out; the source attributed above, Challenging Destiny magazine edited by David M. Switzer, was a short-lived niche periodical, but its interviews are regarded as one of its strengths according to The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction; in any case within the article other sources are cited which discuss the book's incorporation of elements of the Kalevala. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:22, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed review, Cielquiparle! I'm happy to attribute the quote for the other two hooks to give them more context. I'm still learning the ins and outs of DYK, so that's good to know for next time.

• ALT0a: ... that a contemporary adaptation of an 1844 fairy tale contains feminist elements and, according to one scholar, "violates gender expectations"?
• ALT1a: ... that a contemporary adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen's "The Snow Queen" contains feminist elements and, according to one scholar, "violates gender expectations"?

Let me know what you think of these! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 19:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Approving ALT0a and ALT1a in addition to ALT2. Cielquiparle (talk) 01:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)