Talk:Thaksinocracy

This article was nominated for deletion on September 8, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Needs english references

According to the policies of the english language wikipedia, this article needs english language references. Currently, the only reference is in Thai. Patiwat 18:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can help Wikipedia by finding the reference, Patiwat. Just do it, talk is cheap. You said once in Thai Wikipedia that you could not help since you cannot type Thai language. Now you said again, probably you might not be able to type English. --Manop - TH 23:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read the policy, Manop. It isn't my job to find references for your contributions. The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Patiwat 20:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is Thaksinocracy and why is it important?

The artcicle doesn't really explain what Thaksinocracy is. Is it a generic term that simply means "anything done by Thaksin"? If so, does every criticism of Thaksin deserve to be included in this article? Or is it a criticism of specific aspects of Thaksin's policies? The current list given right now seems like a general laundry list of complaints. Patiwat 18:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Check the PDF, Patiwat

Thaksinocracy is more like a "term" that invented by Anti-Thaksin group, as I have expained that the Thaksin Lover will take it as an insault. I think I am clear about it already. And the PDF from Professor Kaewsant will explain about what it is and why it is so important which I will sum up the point into english. Just wait and be patient a bit. It is coming. It can be just like what you say "the general laundry list of complaints" but you do not see the detail yet. Plus, I did not make such complaint. Professor Kaewsant made that, it is in his book. You want to undermind his credibility, you should go talk to him. You want a citation, I alreadyt gave you a citation. Then you said that it has to be in English. Do we have to wait till Paul Handley write about Thaksin first before we are able to write all this thing? That's totally non-sense.

You only pick the "Policy" to attack me base on what you do not like. You seems to be ok with so many articles that written on English wikipedia that doesn't have any refernece at all. When I wrote about Thaksin, it seems to provoke your anger or something. And you said you do not love him? If you do so then you are not so neutral as well, isn't that against the policy?

Once again, can I ask for fair treatment?

Thai_History_0102 19:45, 10 September 2006 (Pacific Time)

Thai_History_0102, read the policies and follow them, or else write blog. The english language wikipedia requires english language references written by credible, third-party sources. This isn't that hard. If you really think the policy is non-sense, then feel free to argue against it in Wikipedia talk:Verifiability.
The standard of quality for articles that are about living people is much higher than for normal articles. I really don't care if somebody contributes unreferenced nonsense to an article about cartoon characters. But strict adherence to NPOV and verifiability policies is absolutely required for living people. Patiwat 20:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article To Dos

The article lacks english language references, as required by the english language wikipedia. As per wikipedia policy, the burden of evidence for adding references belongs to the original creator.
The article does not provide any context for why Thaksin has been accused. It does not provide any specificity about the individual accusations that would help the reader evaluate whether the accusations are valid.
The article is not neutral and and does not take the perspective of Thaksin's supporters. Simply saying that they believe the accusers are "jealous" is not taking their perspective.
The article needs to be massively copyedited for grammar, structure, and voice.

-- Patiwat 19:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The various tags are not "pollution". This article refers specifically to an living individual, and makes negative comments about that individual which do not contain valid english language sources. The reader needs to be clearly informed of the article's bias and lack of verificatability, and that is what tags do. Patiwat 19:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An editor might want to refer to "Premocracy" and how the -ocracy term has been used in Thailand. BangkokPundit 17:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Were people actually using the term "Premocracy" during that period? What other -ocracy'ies have there been? Not in slang. I mean stuff that we can actually find references for. Patiwat 02:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even the origin of the word may hard to traced out, I think we couldn't deny anymore that the word is actually in use.

From [1], Kaewsan Atibhodi has written a book named แฝดสยามคู่ใหม่ "ทักษุโณมิกส์" และ "ทักษิณาธิปไตย" (New Siamese Twins "Thaksinomics" and "Thaksinocracy") (ISBN 974960960X Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum, in Thai), I believe that we can use the book's title as, at least, the reference to the use of the word (apart from the uses in Thai newspapers)

Rangsun Thanapornpun [2], also a lecturer at Thammasat University (Economics), also use the word Thaksinocracy, see the news [3]

FYI, [4] has put a brief linguistic analysis of the word Thaksinathipatai (Thaksinocracy) (also in Thai) -- I'm afraid that this can hardly be a ref of Wikipedia article, but I put it here in Talk page just only for those who may interest.

But, well, all that are in Thai.

The only English document, that is not a newspaper, that I found and believe it could be used as a ref for Wikipedia article is this one:

THAKSINOCRACY OR MANAGERIALIZATION? REFORMING THE THAI BUREAUCRACY by Martin Painter at Southeast Asia Research Centre, City University of Hong Kong. May 2005. http://www.cityu.edu.hk/searc/WP76_05_Martin.pdf

-- 172.173.192.31 04:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this is somehow handy for the editor, if she/he like to make a ref (a lot of works still there anyway, to read the paper+article and make a real ref ... that's the burden) -- 172.173.192.31 04:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This can be put as a "Further Reading" -- 172.173.192.31 14:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think what BangkokPundit was not asking whether the term Thaksinocracy had been used previously in Thailand (any Google search could do that), but whether Premocracy, Pramojocracy, Saritocracy, Plaekocracy, or Pridiocracy had ever been used. This is difficult to verify, because primary data for those eras has mostly been undigitized. To my knowledge, there have been no other -ocracies; Rabob-Thaksin is thus the first Rabob- in Thai political history. Which to me, shows the fallacy of the term - I don't think anybody who knows anything Thai history would argue that Thaksin was a greater dictator than Sarit or Thanom or Plaek. Patiwat 09:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I cannot remember of any other "-athipatai"/"-ocracy", in that exact form. But if we talking about the concept of (-ocracry), political system, (Rabob-), probably Thanom-Prapat-Narong authoritarian regime is one of the most (in)famous -ocracies in Thailand. So I don't think Rabob-Thaksin is the first Rabob in the country krub. -- 172.173.192.31 14:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies Patiwat and others, but my inability to create links in Wiki meant I didn't link to what I wanted to. Yes, Premocracy has been used before. For example, there is a journal article [5] with Premocracy in its title and even another Wiki post [6] which uses the term Premocracy. It is certainly not as widespread as Thaksinocracy, but the term has been used before. BangkokPundit 20:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

for your convinience :) -- Yos Santasombat. 1989 . “The End of Premocracy in Thailand.” In Southeast Asian Affairs 1989 , pp. 317-335. Singapore: ISEAS. -- 172.158.196.10 10:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Relation to Thaksinomics

It would be great, if anyone like to put a brief paragraph about how Thaksinocracy related to Thaksinomics. Thanks. -- 172.173.192.31 03:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, voluntarily. I believe that it could give more context to the article. -- 172.173.192.31 03:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The spellings of some names

I'm guessing that "Professor Kaewsant Adhipothi" and "Atibhodi, Kaewsan" are the same person? If someone can confirm that then the same spelling should be used throughout the article.

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