Talk:Territorial evolution of the United States

Thirteen Colonies

The territories of 1776 need to be revisited. Claims at the time to territories populated by Native American groups significantly inland from the coast were tenuous and not definitive. The maps should indicate this. إيان (talk) 08:20, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

There are a lot of ways to interpret this request, and I'm not saying this is the best or only way. But this has reminded me that it would be a good idea to at the very least, include the treaties the US signed with the native nations - it wouldn't count necessarily as a border change, since the US has never considered the native nations as independent and this map is, for better or for worse but mainly for a single objective point of view, purely about that. But, like how I include several "unofficial" changes that were nonetheless very important (like State of Franklin, Jefferson Territory, Kearney's New Mexico, etc.), then I should include the treaties. I'll start work on that tonight, I've been looking for a new map project. --Golbez (talk) 03:02, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

This could be very interesting, so long as you don't overdo it. Focus on the most important examples and indicate that these changes were "unofficial" from the perspective of the United States. Keep up the good work. Columbianmammoth (talk) 03:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

"Decolonization" header

It can't be removed, so what should it be replaced with? The majority of entries in that block are of the US recognizing other sovereigns for land they've claimed for decades, so "decolonization" seemed most relevant. --Golbez (talk) 16:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

"Decolonization" (and "imperialism") could be politically controversial words in the context of the United States, if that's what you're asking. It could also inspire confusion with the American Revolution period. So avoiding it would be ideal. But, like you said, it's hard to think of a better word that suits the context of this article. Columbianmammoth (talk) 03:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Thirteen Colonies (1607-1776)

I appreciate the fact that Territorial evolution of Australia starts with the First Fleet (1787) and not Federation (1901). By contrast, Territorial evolution of the United States starts with the Declaration of Independence (1776) and not Jamestown (1607). The Thirteen Colonies (1607-1776) are commonly discussed in the United States as American history and not as foreign history. That said, the age of our country is always counted starting in 1776. (See Centennial Exposition, Sesquicentennial Exposition, United States Bicentennial, and the planned United states Semiquincentennial.) Thus, I could see the argument for including 1607-1776 in this article going either way. Keep up the good work! Columbianmammoth (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the concern with extending United States territorial evolution before 1776 is the question of how to deal with expansion into the territory of pre-existing states. Should territorial changes to Spanish, French, and Mexican territory that later became part of the U.S. be considered in scope? Should the Dutch era of New York? Canada also expanded into British territory, so its territorial evolution page starts at federation rather than at colonial foundation, and I think that's the right model to follow. Astrofreak92 (talk) 04:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

That's been one of my main concerns, yes. If I go back before 1776, I suddenly have to care about, among other things: The massively conflicting sea-to-sea claims, especially between Virginia, Connecticut, and Massachusetts Bay; the question of the other North American British colonies, which had a similar and perhaps identical relationship to Great Britain as did the thirteen colonies; and, simply put, they weren't the United States. "Territorial evolution of Australia" includes the colonies for two main reasons: One, "Australia" can be construed as the name of the continent, rather than just a country (but that brings in its own bag of worms); and, primarily, the colonies were very contained. They didn't claim vastly more than what they currently hold. It's also why I've considered including colonies in Canada, but then I ran into the same logical problem as including the colonies here - at a certain point I'm forced to ignore things of equal status just because they didn't become states later.

What I have been doing is, working on and off for years, on a "Territorial evolution of the British Empire" map in general, and of the British Empire in North America in specific. That way we can get all the colonies and I don't have to worry about future changes. However, then we run into the final and biggest problem: It's difficult. It's difficult to figure out all of the conflicting claims. I'm trying, but it's a slow, painful process, not aided by the fact that the British have not been nearly as diligent as publishing their laws online as the Americans. --Golbez (talk) 20:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Why does is say Porto Rico that's a crazy obvious error It's Puerto 104.62.41.81 (talk) 12:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Puerto Rico was Porto Rico from 1898 to 1931, detailed explanation available in Puerto Rico. Kmusser (talk) 13:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)