Talk:Teleost

Infraclass or Division?

The first sentence in the (Top) section says that Teleostei is an infraclass, but the scientific classification section says that it is a division in the infraclass Teleosteomorpha. So, is it an infraclass or a division? Jako96 (talk) 13:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. The teleosts have been classified as an infraclass for many years, and 2024 publications continue to do that. The infobox classification section depends on whatever is going on in Wikidataa widely-used classification template which is slightly a law unto itself. I'll see if I can get a data person to fix it for us. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. After we change division to infraclass for Teleostei we will have to change the rank for Teleosteomorpha too. I think we can make it an unranked clade. Jako96 (talk) 14:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

We can't do anything until the people who manage these things decide what will be best. I certainly wouldn't wish to touch the data without wide consensus as thousands of articles would be affected. It may be that we decide instead to change the article text. I have placed my question and I'm awaiting replies. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

But this taxon is generally recognized as an infraclass. Maybe we should make an edit request from Editing Template talk:Taxonomy/Teleostei (new section) - Wikipedia

Should I make a request? Jako96 (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Wait in Wikidata it says it is an infraclass not a division. Jako96 (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Please let's wait rather than jump the gun. As I said, I have inquired. Let's see what folks who know think before making far-reaching changes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. We can wait. But it's not about Wikidata because in there it is ranked as an infraclass. Jako96 (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

No, the data haven't been sucked into Wikidata yet. They are in a widely-used template. Chiswick Chap (talk) Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Historically the project has used Fishes of the World as the guideline higher classification, which uses Division Teleostei, and that has determined the taxobox classification. There was a recent discussion about updating the guideline taxonomic source for the Fish Project and the general conclusion was to follow Eschmeyer's Catalog of Fishes for the family and ordinal classification, as that is more recent and compatible with FishBase, which is used for genera and species. ECoF doesn't go above class and is ideosyncratic at class level, so I think the decision was to keep FotW5 for the higher classification, as well as for fossils. As it stands, I think the taxobox is best left as a division, until we can find revised classification that covers the full range of fish. The alternative ranks used in other classifications should be mentioned in the text, with appropriate sources.  —  Jts1882 | talk  17:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I've modified the lead to explain that teleosts are considered a division or infraclass in different taxonomic systems.  —  Jts1882 | talk  18:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Nice! Jako96 (talk) 20:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@Quetzal1964: Anything to add on this? Did we agree to keep using FotW5 for these high taxa?

Incidentally, I've also made some updates on Wikidata indicating different rank of Teleostei used by FotW5 and Deepfin and the different uses of division as rank in zoology.  —  Jts1882 | talk  08:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Super. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Jts1882 yes we agreed to keep FotW as the source for taxa above the level of order. However, it was also noted that best practice, as you have done here, was to set out alternative classifications in the text. It was thought that Deepfin was too splittery(?) and rather old, while Near & Thacker was too lumpy and uses an unranked classification system. Quetzal1964 (talk) 09:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)