Talk:Tantura massacre

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Archives

Archive 1

Alexandroni

@Levivich: Do we have sources explicitly saying Haganah? I think this is a minor technicality that is not supported by RS, given that Israel was declared on 14 May and the IDF supposedly officially on 26 May; this brief transition period is not given that much weight by RS, which call the perpetrator "Israeli forces". [1], [2]. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes:

Ref #1: "Tantura itself fell within the zone of operation of the Alexandroni Brigade, one of the erstwhile Haganah's six Khish (field force) brigades (to be distinguished from its strike force, the three Palmach brigades) ... The task of capturing Tantura was assigned to the Alexandroni Brigade's 33d Battalion."

Ref #10: "...on 22-23 May 1948, some 200 unarmed Tantura villagers, mostly young men, were shot dead after the village had surrendered following the onslaught of Haganah troops."

Ref #27: "A week later, on the night of 22-23 May 1948, Tantura was attacked and occupied by the Thirty-Third Battalion of the Alexandroni Brigade. The village leadership had previously refused to adhere to the surrender terms of the Haganah, which was in the process of being absorbed into the soon to be established Israeli army, and the village fell after an intense battle overnight." Levivich (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: It seems we have RS citing both Haganah and Israeli forces (given that Israel had been supposedly established on 14 May), so why not both? So I would suggestion something around: "massacred by Israel's Haganah, namely the Alexandroni Brigade" in the opening paragraph. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that makes sense, the article should say "Israel" in the lead. Maybe also specify the 33rd Battalion? The article should be specific when saying who carried out a massacre. Maybe also it would be good to explain somehow what Haganah was and save the reader the click. Like "by the 33rd Battallion of the Alexandroni Brigade, part of the Haganah, Israel's army at the time" or "...part of Israel's Haganah, the precursor to the IDF" or something like that? My only concern is that we not say the Alexandroni Brigade was part of the IDF at the time. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep it concise in the opening paragraph. This is valuable, to be elaborated elsewhere. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Implemented. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandroni soliders and battle

According to the official website of the Alexandroni brigades and a tombstone placed in the area, 14 soliders of the brigades died in battle by sniper fire and more. The village was also used as a hub to smuggle weapons from Lebanon and a large number of its inhabitants were armed. Bar Harel (talk) 00:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll

Anyone have any sources for the death toll estimates?

It seems this article's lower bound of 40 is erroneous and only based on the Khalidi/Khatib's description of "the methodical shooting and burial in a communal grave of some forty young men in Tantura village." However, Pappé 2006 writes in regards to executions that "These were not the only men executed. Before the selection and killing process took place on the coast, the occupying unit had gone on a killing spree inside the houses and in the streets." Though Pappé himself does not provide an estimate or range for deaths. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only RS estimates I've found so far are:

"In May 1948, more than 200 Palestinians were killed by the advancing Jewish militia in the coastal village of Tantura, south of Haifa." Pilger, John, New Statesman, 13647431, 6/3/2002, Vol. 131, Issue 4590[3]

"Ilan Pappé, who has documented in detail the massacre of some 200 men, women and children at Tantura on 22–23 May 1948" (Blackwell, Sue. "Review Essay: States of Denial." Holy Land Studies: A Multidisciplinary Journal, vol. 6 no. 1, 2007, p. 113-118. Project MUSE, https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/hls.2007.0016.) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"More than 200" according to Katz (per https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/41048) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Morris 2004: "Dozens of villagers were killed. The initial report spoke of ‘300 adult male prisoners’ and ‘200 women and children’." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"the number of villagers who were shot to death can’t be established. The numbers arising from the testimonies range from a handful who were killed, to many dozens. According to one testimony, provided by a resident of Zichron Yaakov who helped bury the victims, the number of dead exceeded 200, though this high figure does not have corroboration." Adam Raz, Haaretz[4] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"There also remains a mass grave. [...] It reportedly contains between a few dozens to more than 200 buried corpses of Palestinian men who were massacred"[5] IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IM

The Israeli miltiary supposedly should have been formed by 14 May so the Alexandroni Brigade was part of that and not part of the Haganah. This is also supported by RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah wow, not a good sign. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image formatting

I'm not sure how to format the multiple images I added recently, so if anyone could help with that it would be much appreciated. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:17, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Check this. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Content from Tantura

I removed a lot of content about the Tantura massacre from the page Tantura as being undue in this edit [6].

Most of the content from that article is already present in this article, though it's possible I removed something there which is not included here. Just placing this here for visibility/review. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]