Talk:Sutton River (Missisquoi River tributary)

Title of this watercourse in English

This transboundary watercourse flows mainly in Quebec (Canada). The name "North Branch Missisquoi River" is in no way formalized in Quebec at the "Commission de toponymie du Québec"; it only applies for the 2.7 km segment in Vermont territory. In Quebec, the appropriate name of this stream in English version is "Sutton River". Consequently, I recommend that the title of this article in the Wikipedia English project be "Sutton River (Missisquoi River)"Veillg1 (talk

@Veillg1: No the name in Canada was given by the Commission de toponymie who don't use English as a language, so the official name in Canada is not Sutton River, but instead « rivière Sutton »[1][2]. If the river flow 3 km in the US and they give it the official name North Branch Missisquoi River[3], so it's the name in English. --Fralambert (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Following your previous comment, here is the result of my new research and my conclusion concerning the title of the English version of the article. Certainly your logic for changing the title of this article on Wikipedia is based on the name of the 2.7 km US segment. Your point of view is clearly expressed. However, this logic of title borrowing (transposed to Canada) does not do the trick. The title "North Branch Missisquoi River" only confuses the reader. The title should reflect the main course of the river, not a secondary segment. The toponym "North Branch Missisquoi River" only applies to the 2.7 km segment in Vermont. This title borrowed from the United States does not appear in the Atlas of Canada published by the Minister of Natural Resources of Canada, nor in the Commission de toponymie du Québec. On Wikipedia, the simple toponyms (eg Rivière Sutton) are translated from French to English by positioning "River" at the end of the title (eg Sutton River). Your title proposal is not a direct translation of this watercourse; you rename rather the Canadian course of the river. My recommendation is to revert to the original title (English version) of the article "Sutton River (Missisquoi River tributary)". Veillg1 (talk) 01:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The title of the stream according to reliable sources is either North Branch Missisquoi River or Rivière Sutton. Where you say On Wikipedia, the simple toponyms (eg Rivière Sutton) are translated from French to English by positioning "River" at the end of the title (eg Sutton River) -- is there any basis for this in guidelines? And if you believe that to be true, why do you create so many articles that are titled Rivière xxxx? (for example, Petite rivière Missisquoi Nord, Rivière des Iroquois (Richelieu River tributary), Rivière des Hurons (Richelieu River tributary), Rivière du Sud-Ouest (Saint Lawrence River tributary), Rivière du Sud (La Sarre River tributary), Rivière du Sud (La Sarre River tributary), Rivière du Sud (Montmagny), Rivière de la Tortue (Delson), etc. all of which have simple and direct English translations. older ≠ wiser 13:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bkonrad: For your question, Canada have a guideline for translation [4]. Petite rivière Missisquoi Nord should probabbly renamed Little North Missisquoi River according to it. Rivière des Iroquois and Rivière du Sud-Ouest seem fine according to this reconmendation. For the North Branch Missisquoi River, it follow more the simple rule of a transborder geographical feature, more like Pike River (Missisquoi Bay tributary)/Rivière aux Brochets, Mount Caubvick/Mont D'Iberville. It should take the name of the English speaking sources instead of translate the French ones. --Fralambert (talk) 14:36, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Fralambert: I meant if there were any guidelines on Wikipedia, such as from WikiProject Canada. I'm not sure the Canadian government translation bureau rules are binding guidance for Wikipedia. I suspect Sutton River was the anglophone name for the stream and it was converted to French at some point. See for example Lovell's Gazetteer of British North America. Similarly, there are lots of English language sources that use Iroquois River rather than Rivière des Iroquois. Addendum: I guess I can understand using the French name where there is no English equivalent in source materials, such as for little-known geographical features in remote areas, but it seems rather arbitrary to sometimes use French name or sometimes English name. older ≠ wiser 15:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Fralambert and Bkonrad:For your information, here is the result of my Internet research at the BAnQ (Library and National Archives of Quebec), concerning the use of the toponym "Sutton River" with the English-speaking community. Regarding the name "North Branch Missisquoi River" the Internet search is less easy because it is a composite name.

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Sutton River------------

• Article « This summer said not as bad as last”, The Sherbrooke Record, 31 août 1972, p. 3, indicating: “However, in some regions on the Yamaska and Sutton Rivers, the number increased to 25 years (…)”.
• Article « International concern - Missisquoi plight worsens », by Merritt Clifton, The Sherbrooke Record, 26 juillet 1979, p. 1 indiquant dans un article sur l’écologie: “(…) the Sutton River becomes the Missisquoi’s biggest tributary (…)”.
• Article « Asbestors contaminates Bedford tapwater”, by Merritt Clifton, The Record, 9 mai 1980, p. 3, indicating: “The CPR tracks parallel the Sutton River from Sutton to Abercorn on the uphill side.”
• Article « Asbestors waste joins coliform – Danger flows in Sutton” by Merritt Clifton, journal The Record, 22 mai 1980, p. 3, indicating: “The fibres are then discharged into the Sutton River, which feeds the Missisquoi, which eventually supplies Bedford’s tapwater.”
• Article “One of Champs’s descendant?”, The Record (Sherbrooke), 26 oct. 1982, p. 1, indiquant: “The long-necked growling monsters mucking about in the Sutton River between Sutton and Abercorn these days are note relatives of ‘Champ” (…)”.
• Article “Sutton environment group wants conservation park run by residents, business”, by Sharon McCully, The Record (Sherbrook), 20 mars 1989, p. 3, indicating: “(…) members of the Pinnacle Mountain and Sutton River conservation groups will study ways of creating a regional park to protect wildlife and forests in the region.”
• Article “Sutton Township feeling pinch of cost transfers”, by Maurice Crossfield, The Record, 19 janvier 2000, p. 4, indicating: “This will help clean up the Sutton River, which is very important because it’s been polluted for a very long time,” Bresee said.”
• article « Few sites in Sutton Mountains legally protected: report” by Murielle Parkes, correspondante de Potton, Journal The Record, February 1, 2001, p. 10, mentioning “Sutton River floodplain”.
• Article “Sutton mayoral candidates weigh in and square of on environment, urban plan”, by Joshua Bleser, The Record (Sherbrooke), 25 octobre 2005, p. 4, indicating: “For example, Bresse charged, under Hill’s watch, an oil tank leaked into the Sutton River, costing the town $60,000 to clean up”.
• Article “Sutton – Racette home gone” from Nancy Helmuth, The Record (Sherbrooke), March 24, 2011, p. 4, indicating: “The place had fallen in disrepair, but because it sits next to the Sutton river bridge, it attracted new owners who will build a bicycle shop, boutiques and a cafe on this storied site.”

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North Branch Missisquoi River------------

• La Collection d’annuaires Lovell de Montréal et sa région – Province de Québec – Eastern Townships (Affaires) de 1898 fait référence à « Sutton River », p. 251. La même collection indique « A post village in Brome c., Que., on the north branch of the Missisquoi River, and on the C.P.R., 69 miles from Montreal and 25 miles from Farnham.”. Note: This refers to Missisquoi River North which is located East of Sutton River.
• Article “Mansonville bringing recreo-tourism park to life”, by Maurice Crossfield, Brome County News, indicating “Back in 1993 the idea of creating a park along the banks of the north branch of the Missisquoi River first surfaced.”. Note: This refers to Missisquoi River North which is located East of Sutton River.

In summary, the use of the toponym "Sutton River" is common in the English-speaking community.Veillg1 (talk) 21:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Considering that:

• 88.7% (21.2 km) of the length of the Sutton river is in Canada;
• in the digital archives of the National Archives of Quebec (research on Internet conducted in June 2020), no English writing attests the name of "North Branch Missisquoi River" in Canada (http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/);
• the "Commission de toponymie du Québec" (Toponymy Commission of Quebec) does not include a name "North Branch Missisquoi River" (or a French translation) (http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/);
• the Atlas of Canada from the Department of Natural Resources Canada does not include a name "North Branch Missisquoi River" (or a French translation) (https://atlas.gc.ca/toporama/fr/index.html);
• no writing on the website of the town of Sutton and the town of Abercorn, refers to the name of "North Branch Missisquoi River";
• no article in English published on Newspapers in Quebec (recordered in BAnQ and accessible on Internet) refers to the name of "North Branch Missisquoi River";
• a 74-year-old English-speaking elder, resident of Sutton, said on June 6, 2020 by email to Veillg1 that he never heard the name "North Branch Missisquoi River" to designate the Canadian part of this watercourse;
• the research conducted by Veillg1 concludes that no map in Canada refers to the name of "North Branch Missisquoi River";

consequently, my proposal is that the original name of the article "Sutton River" be retained for this article on English project of Wikipedia. -- Veillg1 (talk) 16:10, June 7, 2020 (UTC)