Talk:Spring Harvest
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Note 1
[edit]I feel that this article is hopelessly partisan and needs to be comprehensively re-written. It actually uses "we" when talking about the event, undermining any neutrality. The tone throughout the article sounds like Wikipedia is trying to sell the event. Here are a list of examples with my notes:
"Spring Harvest has become much more than just an annual event — albeit the largest Christian conference in Europe." This is not factual and is gloating - "much more".
"2,700 Christians attended the first event - a number that grew to 38,000 in only seven years." "Only" seven years - again, partisan opinion.
Since its inception, Spring Harvest has had a profound impact on the life of the Church in the UK, and further afield.
It has encouraged new styles of worship. It has exposed Christians to a vast range of speakers and Church leaders from all over the world. It has helped evangelicals to recapture their commitment to social compassion, giving them a wider vision of what God is doing in the world." This is incredibly subjective and implies belief in God on the part of an encyclopedia.
"This has significantly contributed to the success of Spring Harvest as it can entertain all members of the average family." What is the "average" family and where is the factual evidence that Spring Harvest can entertain them? Again, this sounds like a sales pitch.
The history and media coverage sections are also vague with the same unsuitable tone of laudation. To quote just one instance: "1999: Spring Harvest raises thousands of pounds to help the victims of brutality in Kosovo." This is not factual enough on the charity, sum etc to be included and so is merely a sales pitch. These dates seem to be chosen to present a positive image of the event. Faulkling 14:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Finer Detail such as Actual Dates and Speaker Names
[edit]I am seeking to find the dates of the events in each year as well as a detailed speakers list or a link to one. This would be helpful for me but perhaps too specific for this article. A nice compromise would be at least mentioning if the event was held in the Spring as it may be relevant to the name of the event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcsutherland (talk • contribs) 17:01, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Unsourced History section
[edit]The following is almost entirely unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
- History
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- Location and attendance
- 1979: The first Spring Harvest event at Prestatyn, North Wales with 2,701 attending.
- 1986: For the first time Spring Harvest took place at two locations in the UK: three weeks in Prestatyn, and two weeks in Butlins Minehead.
- 1987: Spring Harvest met at Skegness for the first time.
- 1988: At the 10th Spring Harvest, the attendance was over 50,000 mark.
- 1989: Spring Harvest expanded to three locations, opening up a new Centre at Butlin's Ayr, Scotland.
- 1994: Over 70,000 Christians attended Spring Harvest at its four locations in Ayr, Minehead, Pwllheli and Skegness.
- 2008: Spring Harvest Main Event take place over five weeks across the Skegness and Minehead sites, to accommodate the varied times of UK schools' Easter holidays.
- Social campaigns and fund raising for causes
- 1982: At the outbreak of the Falklands War, Spring Harvest sent a telegram to the Prime Minister expressing 'the love and concern felt by Christians for both governments and peoples involved.' £7,800 was collected and sent to the Church in Argentina.
- 1988: A worship album was launched, with profits going to Christian projects involved in supporting those with HIV/AIDS. It went on to raise over £20,000.
- 1991: £250,000 was given in voluntary offerings for a wide range of Christian work. £49,000 raised for a 'Greener Burkina' by the youth programme, was used to replant a forest and build a dam to alleviate drought conditions in Burkina Faso, West Africa.
- 1994 Spring Harvest brought attention to the Yugoslav Wars by sending a film crew to Mostar - a UN designated War Zone.
- 1999: Spring Harvest raises thousands of pounds to help the victims of brutality in the Kosovo War.
- 2000: Spring Harvest launches Generation 2000+ at Minehead, the family week, in conjunction with Care for the Family and raises over £1 million for children worldwide through the 'remember me' project.
- Linked initiatives
- 1993: Spring Harvest Word Alive was launched in-conjunction with the Keswick Convention, Proclamation Trust and UCCF.
- 1996: Spring Harvest launched an initiative with Focus, and Holy Trinity, Brompton.
- 1998: Spring Harvest unveils plans to develop its activities, the first new initiative 'At Work Together' a conference for Leaders planned for September 1998. Alongside the developments a new Corporate Identity is also launched.
- 2003: Spring Harvest Holidays is launched with the holiday site in the Vendée, western France, opening to its first visitors. The first 'Youthwork the conference' takes place in Southport in November 2003.
- 2007: Spring Harvest Word Alive takes place for the final time following a communication to its partners by Spring Harvest that it was no longer possible to continue the format. Word Alive will be continuing without Spring Harvest under the name New Word Alive.
- Governance
- 1993: Spring Harvest became a registered charity and a company limited by guarantee.
- 2009: Spring Harvest and ICC Media Group complete merger to form Memralife Group.[1]
- 2009: Pilgrim Hall Christian Conference Centre in Sussex becomes latest member of the Memralife Group.[2]
- 2010: After 20 years as CEO, Alan Johnson retires. Peter Martin appointed acting CEO of Memralife Group, this appointment being made permanent later in the year.
References
- ^ ICC Media Group and Spring Harvest merge at the Wayback Machine (archived March 29, 2009)
- ^ Pilgrim Hall Christian Conference Centre at the Wayback Machine (archived May 20, 2010)
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Unsourced Main event annual themes section
[edit]The following is entirely unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
- Main event annual themes
Each year’s main event has a teaching theme.
- 2018 : Only The Brave
- 2017 : One For All
- 2016 : Gamechangers
- 2015 : Immeasurably More
- 2014 : Unbelievable
- 2013 : The Source - Encountering Jesus Today
- 2012 : Church Actually - God's Brilliant Idea
- 2011 : Route 66 - Biblical direction for the road we travel
- 2010 : Different Eyes - Living distinctively in a time of uncertainty
- 2009 : Apprentice = Walking the way of Christ
- 2008 : One Hope
- 2007 : One People
- 2006 : One God : (The first event in a series of Three [THE BIG STORY])
- 2005 : Sing the Lord’s Song in a Strange Land
- 2004 : Grace Academy : Losing to Win.
- 2003 : Shepherd's Bush to King's Cross: Your connection to the mission of God.
- 2002 : You've Got Mail : Jesus writes to His Church - Looking at the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.
- 2001 : King of the Hill : looking at the Sermon on the Mount.
- 2000 : A Royal Banquet : The inspiration for the Millennium – Looking at John’s Gospel.
- 1999 : Past Imperfect Future Tense
- 1998 : Across the border line
- 1997 : Solid Rock : The Ten Commandments.
- 1996 : Beyond Belief
- 1995 : Take off your shoes
- 1994 : Dancing in the dark
- 1993 : Living on the edge
- 1992 : Meanwhile, back at the cross
- 1991 : Shaken but not Stirred
- 1990 : Uncage the Lion
- 1989 : Deckchairs on the Titanic : What influences the church today.
- 1988 : Who’s pulling your strings : Looking at the forces and pressures which influence the world.
- 1987 : Where Truth and Justice Meet
- 1986 : This is your God
- 1985 : Lights to the World
- 1984 : The Servant King
- 1983 : The Power and the Glory
References
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Unsourced media coverage section; other issues as well
[edit]The following is almost entirely unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
The ref here might be useful to generate content from it, but it should used for that, not as publicity per se.
- Media coverage
- In Week 2 at Minehead in 2003, Spring Harvest was featured on the BBC programme Songs of Praise. The first 'week' (week 1), still in Minehead, Spring Harvest was featured on both local and national news as a sickness bug spread rapidly around the event.[1]
- In Week 3 at Minehead in 2006, the BBC returned to pre-record a Pentecost edition of Songs of Praise, and also to transmit a live Easter morning service from the event.
- Spring Harvest has also featured in other media, including BBC radio, and also regularly in Christian media.
References
- ^ "More hit by holiday camp virus". BBC News. 17 April 2003.
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
- Note - I read the source and it just about a viral outbreak at the festival one year. Nothing encyclopedic to draw from this ref. Jytdog (talk) 21:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Unsourced Discography
[edit]The following is entirely unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
- Discography
- Game Changers: Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2016
- New Songs for the church, 2016
- Kids Praise Party Megamix, 2016
- Little Kids Praise Party Megamix, 2016
- Immeasurably More: Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2015
- New Songs for the Church, 2015
- Newsongs For Kids: 12 Fresh New Songs For Kids' Worship, 2015
- The Big Start Boxset, 2015
- Unbelievable: Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2014
- New Songs For Unbelievable Worship – Spring Harvest, 2014
- Spring Harvest Presents The Big Start 3, 2014
- Your Great Grace: 30 Worship Anthems Of Grace, Mercy & Justice, 2014
- Kids Praise Party 2, 2014
- Bottled At The Source: Live Worship From Spring Harvest, 2013
- The Source: 22 New Songs For The Church, 2013
- Spring Harvest Presents The Big Start 2, 2013
- Live Worship Actually: Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2012
- Acoustic Worship 2, 2012
- Favourite Worship Songs From The Big Start, 2012
- Fresh: New Songs For The Church, 2012
- Pre-School Praise Boxset 1-3, 2012
- Pre-School Praise Boxset 4-6, 2012
- Kids Praise Party, 2012
- Route 66: Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2011
- Route 66: New Songs, 2011
- 20 More New Songs For The Church, 2011
- Pre-School Praise 6, 2011
- Kids Praise Party 6: C'mon Everybody
- Through Different Eyes - Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2010
- Glory – Spring Harvest New Songs, 2010
- Kids Praise Party: Celebrate God, 2010
- Moments Of Contemplation, 2010
- Pre-School Praise 5, 2010
- Through Different Eyes, 2010
- Acoustic Worship, 2010
- Moments Of Wonder, 2010
- He Is Risen! Indeed: Celebrating Jesus From The Big Top, 2010
- Kids Praise Party Box Set, 2010
- Journey: Walking The Way Of Christ - Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2009
- Perfect Sacrifice: 20 New Songs For The Church, 2009
- Pre-School Praise 4, 2009
- Kids Praise Party: We Wanna Be Like Jesus, 2009
- One Hope - Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2008
- Wonderful Saviour: 20 New Songs For Spring Harvest, 2008
- Moments Of Devotion: 12 Classic Instrumental Worship Songs, 2008
- He Is Risen: Easter Classics From The Big Top, 2008
- The Kids Colossal Jumbo Boxset, 2008
- Pre-School Praise 3, 2008
- Kids Praise Party 3, 2008
- One People Unified In Worship -Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2007
- Shine: 20 New Songs For Spring Harvest, 2007
- How Sweet The Sound, 2007
- Pre-School Praise 2, 2007
- Kids Praise Party 2, 2007
- One God - Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2006
- Our God Reigns - Spring Harvest New Songs, 2006
- iScape: No One Like You, 2006
- Pre-School Praise 1, 2006
- Kids Praise Party 1, 2006
- Essence Of Praise & Worship...live! Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2005
- Sing: New Songs, 2005
- Distinctive Sounds: Glory, 2005
- Little Kids Praise 2005/06, 2005
- Kids Praise 2005/06, 2005
- Spring Harvest Hymns 3: Blessed Assurance, 2005
- LIVE -Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2004
- New Songs, 2004
- Little Kids Praise 2004/05, 2004
- Kids Praise 2004/05, 2004
- Ultimate Kids Praise: 60 All Time Classic Kids Praise Songs, 2004
- Evolution, 2004
- Spring Harvest Hymns 2: To God Be The Glory, 2004
- Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2003
- New Songs, 2003
- Spring Harvest Hymns: Great Is Thy Faithfulness, 2003
- Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2002
- New Songs, 2002
- Kids Praise 2002
- Praise Mix 2002
- Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2001
- New Songs, 2001
- Kids Praise 2001
- Little Kids Praise 2001
- Spring Harvest Live Worship, 2000
- New Songs, 2000
- Kid's Praise 2000
- Best Of Spring Harvest Kids Praise And Little Kids Praise, 2000
- Little Kids Praise 2000
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘99
- New Songs ‘99
- Spring Harvest: The Ultimate Praise Mix, 1999
- Praise Mix 99
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘98
- New Songs ‘98
- Kid's Praise '98
- R:age 98
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ’97 (Vol 1 and Vol 2)
- New Songs for 1997
- Praise Mix: Quatamala, 1997
- Kids Praise '97
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘96 (Vol 1 and Vol 2)
- New Songs ’96 Beyond Belief
- Spring Harvest Kids Praise '96
- Praise Mix: Shout It Out, 1996
- Take Off Your Shoes - Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘95
- Take off your shoes - New Songs ’95
- Praise Mix 1995: It's A Small World
- Kid's Praise '95
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘94
- Dancing in the Dark - New Songs ‘94
- Praise Mix 1994
- Kids Praise '94: Dancing In The Dark
- Sping Harvest Live Worship '93
- New Songs for ‘93
- Kids Praise '93: Dancing In The Dark
- Praise Mix '93: Living On The Edge
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘92
- Meanwhile, Back At The Cross: 12 New Songs For Spring Harvest 1992
- Kids Praise: Meanwhile, Back At The Cross, 1992
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ’91: shaken but not stirred
- Kids Praise '91: Shaken But Not Stirred
- Live Worship '90: Uncage The Lion, 1990
- Celebration '89 Vol 1 & Vol 2: Worship From Minehead, Skegness, Ayr
- Spring Harvest '89: 12-19 Praise
- Spring Harvest Live Worship ‘88
- Thank You: Celebrating 10 Years Of Worship At Spring Harvest, 1988
- Live Worship '87: Where Truth And Justice Meet
- Live Worship '86: This Is Your God
- Live Worship '85: Lights To The World
- Live Worship '84: The Servant King
- Praise Vol 2: Live Worship '83
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Unsourced, unverifiable content from the lead
[edit]The following is almost entirely unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. The one ref here is insufficiently cited to allow verification.
The format for 2010 changed to five 'event-weeks' each consisting of 6 days (5 nights) – three event-weeks at Minehead and two at Skegness - one week fewer than in 2009. This pattern remained for 2011, with approximately 28,000 people attending over these five event-weeks, including day visitors.[1] Then in 2012 and 2013 whilst the three Minehead weeks were retained there was only one Skegness week. In 2014 three of the four weeks available were reduced by one day.
References
- ^ "Memralife Group Financial Statements (to 30 November 2011)".
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help)
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Infobox
[edit]Most everything in the infobox was unsourced. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
Spring Harvest is part of the Essential Christian brand | |
Founded | 1979 (Spring Harvest) / 2009 (Memralife) / 2017 (Essential Christian) |
---|---|
Founder | Clive Calver, Peter Meadows |
Type | The Essential Christian brand is registered as a British charity and a private company, limited by guarantee with no share capital |
Focus | To serve and enable the Church and to equip and inspire individuals in the Christian faith to live as disciples of Jesus Christ |
Location |
|
Area served | UK and the World |
Method | Conferences, events, resources, financial grants |
Key people | Rt Rev Pete Broadbent (Chair) Rev Dr Ian White (Vice Chair) Peter Martin (CEO) Gavin Calver (Chair of the event planning group) |
Revenue | ![]() |
Employees | 63 (2011) |
Website | www.springharvest.org |
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
unsourced/SPS sourced content from lead
[edit]The following content from the lead, is almost entirely unsourced and what is sourced, is sourced only to the organization's website. Moved here per WP:PRESERVE. Per WP:BURDEN please do not restore without finding reliable sources, checking this against them, and citing the sources. Please also be aware of WP:WEIGHT, which we determine by examining what independent, reliable sources say. Please also be aware that Wikipedia is not a webhost.
Its "Main Event" takes place annually at the Butlins resorts in Minehead and Skegness over the Easter school holiday period.
First held in 1979 as a one-week one-site event at Prestatyn, Spring Harvest rapidly evolved and is now held at Butlins resorts in Minehead and Skegness every year.
The tone is generally evangelical with modern worship music, workshops and Bible study groups. The programme offers different streams for age groups such as children, young people, families, adults, etc. The organization also runs a number of events, conferences and courses and produces a range of resources. Spring Harvest exists to 'equip the Church for action'. Through a range of events, conferences, books and resources, Spring Harvest seeks to enable Christians to make an impact in their local communities and the wider world.[1]
References
-- Jytdog (talk) 21:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
- It appears Spring Harvest is a significant Christian event with a substantial number of resources available in the Christian Resource Library. The event appears to have made a significant impact, and distributes their conference presentations in Christian outlets. It appears to me, after having done limited research, that there are plenty of sources online for editors who are willing to do the research. Atsme📞📧 22:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Persistent addition of inappropriate content
[edit]Contextbb has been adding content to this again that has been removed several times as inappropriate per WP:CATALOG, WP:COI, WP:UNDUE.
Contextbb and Aliveinthelove (the previous culprit) seem to be single-topic editors, and Contextbb has been suspended before for sock-puppetry. Worth calling for protection on this page? Pirate pete (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Contextbb is not clearly a WP:SPA, but the editor's interests are very narrow. The previous admin action was for a different account.
- Aliveinthelove is not currently blocked. If you'd like to open a WP:SPI, feel free to. If check user supports the claim that they are the same editor, that would be problematic.
- Is there any support for the COI claim? Do you know that either editor is paid for their editing or employed by the organizers of the event? They could just be fans of it.
- I would sooner see references supplied than have the article locked. Even if Aliveinthelove is a sock of Contextbb, and both were permanently blocked, the contributions of the sockmaster, to-date would not be subject to removal.
- In short, I don't see any gaming going on here and don't see a need to lock the page, but I do see the need to clean it up and add references. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:05, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, perhaps I was too quick to assume bad faith. It's probably best for now to just fix the page and see what happens, but I think opening this discussion here is worthwhile as well: maybe one of them will show up to discuss it. Pirate pete (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Agree on all of your points in this last comment. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, perhaps I was too quick to assume bad faith. It's probably best for now to just fix the page and see what happens, but I think opening this discussion here is worthwhile as well: maybe one of them will show up to discuss it. Pirate pete (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Walter Görlitz, Pirate pete, Kleuske, Jytdog, Contextbb: I've just revisited this page for the first time in ages: it popped up on my timeline with User:Hustlebb (a name structurally resembling Contextbb... coincidence? sock?). The article is just lists of unsupported stuff. I propose a massive prune back (as was done in late 2017 ). Support/oppose/comment? Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- support (as proposer) Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- [belatedly] support. Thanks for your work here. Pirate pete (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Done. Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Updated logo
[edit]I have updated the logo in the infobox as the logo has been updated this year. However, the white text is blending in with the default CSS background. I'm not familiar with Wikipedia policy on editing images, especially given the logo as found on the website is an SVG, so if it needs updating and editing, then I leave that to a more experienced editor. Itskieran (talk) 18:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is the fault of the logo itself. It has white text on a transparent background. If the text is changed to black or if the background were changed to a grey, that would solve the problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Citations
[edit]This has come up before but more and more information is being added to this article with no citations. Citation tags have been added over time but unreferenced information keeps being added. I will revisit this article in a week to see if any citations have been added. If not then I will try to re-write the article to maintain NPOV. Knitsey (talk) 18:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and trimmed a lot of the promotional language from the article. I've also removed all the uncited claims. I will revisit the article again to see if I can find some more citations for charitable donations. I was going to include a criticism section but as yet I haven't had chance to look. Knitsey (talk) 20:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Knitsey: Thanks! There's a load of other stuff been entered in recent months which seems to be mostly promotional. I'm going to do some more pruning. See also notes above, March/April 2020. Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Feline Hymnic: Hi, I did some pruning a while ago. I did look for refs for everything I pruned with the exception of the theme list going back decades which I didn't feel was necessary plus most of the event themes were missing. I dumped the charity donations as I couldn't find any specifics. I'm limited as I don't have a lap top at the moment so I'm stuck with my phone. You might have better luck finding more refs. Mostly, it's unsuitable refs as they're sites trying to flog music cd's of the event.
- The article does still need more references or pruning. Your help would be much appreciated.
- Thank you, Knitsey (talk) 20:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I did a massive prune back in early 2020, and last revisited in October 2021. At that point I thought I had left the article in a reasonable state. (Well, reasonable-ish.) So I'm using that as a very approximate baseline for my edits now. And I hope I'm doing reasonable edit summaries as I go. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You started lol. I'm thinking, if it's left as a stub it might end up needing a PROD? Knitsey (talk) 21:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think the topic is WP:NOTABLE. In the 2021 census, 46% of the UK claimed to be Christian, and SH is a major pan-church event for many. (Another event of similar scale is the Keswick Convention.) If it were to go to PROD, I would definitely vote "keep" for the topic. But the article contents definitely need attention from editors with the WP:reliable sources and skills to help build it. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You started lol. I'm thinking, if it's left as a stub it might end up needing a PROD? Knitsey (talk) 21:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're welcome. I did a massive prune back in early 2020, and last revisited in October 2021. At that point I thought I had left the article in a reasonable state. (Well, reasonable-ish.) So I'm using that as a very approximate baseline for my edits now. And I hope I'm doing reasonable edit summaries as I go. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC)