Talk:Siege of Merv (1221)

Standalone notability

Nashville whiz, thanks for creating this article; however, I do not believe that it is independently notable enough to exist as a standalone article. From my extensive research into the campaign, very few reliable sources address the siege itself-most are either primary (Juvaini, Ibn al-Athir etc.) or unreliable in other ways (out of date or non-academic). I intend to take the Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire article to FA status in the near future, and I think that Tolui's campaign in Khorasan (Merv, Nishapur, and Herat) would be better discussed in one place, rather than across separate, rather weak articles. Policies supporting this include: WP:AVOIDSPLIT, WP:PAGEDECIDE. To that end, I propose merging the siege section here with that article, and redirecting the link there; what do you think? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29, thanks for showing interest. As things stand, this is not a finished article yet. I've recently found some good material in secondary (reliable) sources that seem worthy of being utilised here. I hope to upgrade it soon and bring it to look more or less like the "Siege of Bukhara" page (though it enjoys a featured article status). With regard to its notability, I wonder how is this article any different from the Siege of Bukhara, Siege of Gurganj, Siege of Samarkand and other similar pages? If we are talking about incorporating towns of Khorasan besieged by Mongols into one page, in that case, as much as I know, apart from Gurganj, both Bukhara and Samarqand were considered part of Greater Khorasan back then; some time later even Babur mentioned them as such in his memoirs. Frankly, this page was meant to be the first of many (my intention was to create several pages about the sieges of Herat, Nishapur and Ghazni), however, if you are eyeing to bring them together at the Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire page, then, it is indeed a splendid idea. But still, I think the one on Merv should stand alone, owing to its former glory and status within the Islamic world (it lies within my area of interest), as well as its prominence as the pearl of Khorasan. Btw, if you need any help with your endeavor to take the Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire article to FA status, I'll be wating in the wing. Tell me what you think. Thanks, Nashville whiz (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

The thing about the sieges of Bukhara, Samarkand and Gurganj is that reliable secondary sources discuss them in detail. As I'd like to get all of these articles to FA status someday, I do pay attention to the strength of the subject sourcing, and Tolui's campaign in Khorasan (I tend to regard Bukhara, Samarkand, and Khojend as part of Transoxiana – the Islamic Mavarannahr - and Gurganj as part of Khwarazm, as far as regions go) is generally covered by little more than "Everyone was killed. Repeat." On second thoughts though, I would recommend moving this page to be Mongol invasion of Khorasan, and covering the whole of Tolui's activities in the region — not only Merv, but Nishapur, Herat, Ghazni, and also the earlier activities of Jebe and Subutai as they passed through? What do you think Nashville whiz? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, let me first finish the page and bring it to the level I'm eyeing. Perhaps then we could assess the page and later discuss which would be the best option for it? Nashville whiz (talk) 10:04, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll try and put the Mongol articles on the front burner again. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:06, 9 May 2023 (UTC)