Talk:Seniority in the United States Senate/Archives/2021

I see only 99 members

Today (Jan. 3, 2019) new members have been added at start of 116th Congress. "Current rank" is only running from 1 through 99; please fix or, if it can't be fixed right now, insert an explanation. Carlm0404 (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Senator-elect Scott of Florida will be sworn in on January 8, after his term as governor ends. There’s a vacancy for five days.JTRH (talk) 20:04, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. He'd go into that #100 slot; I don't know why he chose to delay entrance in favor of completing governor term. Carlm0404 (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Someone has to be governor of Florida. JTRH (talk) 19:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

What happens if the Florida governorship becomes vacant during a term? Three governors of Delaware each left with less than a month left, in order to make timely start of a term in US Congress. Carlm0404 (talk) 05:51, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

The Lieutenant Governor would become Governor for five days, but Scott chose not to do that. JTRH (talk) 08:59, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Those 3 Delaware governors were J. Caleb Boggs (became Senator in 1961), Mike Castle (became Representative in 1993), Tom Carper (became Senator in 2001). They were each succeeded by the lt. gov. Carlm0404 (talk) 17:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

If Senator-elect Scott had joined on Jan. 3, he'd be just ahead of Mitt Romney in seniority because of longer service as governor, right? Carlm0404 (talk) 21:51, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes -- fdewaele 5 January 2019, 23:25 CET

I think I need to restate my request to explain there being less than 100 members, even though I have seen plenty of publicity for the current situation: one of the incumbent Georgia senators, who's facing a runoff election in search for re-election, reached the end of old term before the runoff could happen. Carlm0404 (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I personally don't see much point. Senate vacancies occur not infrequently and it shouldn't be that unusual that there is one at the moment. Sdrqaz (talk) 18:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

"Senior senator from Georgia"

I was wondering whether it would be accurate to describe Sen. Kelly Loeffler as the senior senator from Georgia at the beginning of the 117th Congress, as Sen. Perdue's seat will be vacant pending his runoff. I've sent off an email to the Senate Historian, but that would obviously be original research. If anyone has any sources that shed light on this, please let me know.

Sdrqaz (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• The real problem is that "senior" and "junior" are just casual meanings without formal definitions. Having said that, of course, seniority itself is a mere casual term that has no legal basis, just in custom. Finally… one could ask if Jon Kyl was senior or junior back in 2018. And yes, asking the senate historian would be WP:OR. Sorry for the non-answer. —GoldRingChip 02:21, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, yes. Much of the Senate's conventions and customs aren't based in law by their very nature, such as the blue slip process and the old convention of confirming current (or former) senators to the Cabinet unanimously. Regarding Sen. Kyl, GoldRingChip, I thought that he was clearly the junior senator, as he was serving with Sen. Flake, whose term began earlier than Sen. Kyl's. Prior service only comes into play when senators are sworn in at the same time (unlike seniority in the House). Sdrqaz (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Kyl was the junior senator when he returned, yes. But he had retired and left the Senate for some time before McCain's death. JTRH (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I know, but GoldRingChip was talking about in 2018. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Clearly, you lose seniority when you retire and return. Lautenberg, Kyl, Dan Coats, Slade Gorton, etc. JTRH (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Seniority used to be far more important than it is now. I don’t think either seat will be considered “vacant” in a way that constitutes a break in service, so I don’t think there’s any way Loeffler would end up as senior to Perdue. If Loeffler wins and Perdue loses, then obviously she’s senior to Ossoff. JTRH (talk) 10:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, Sen. Loeffler's seat won't be vacant in the near future, since she'll continue serving until Warnock is sworn in (if she loses reelection). Since seniority for committee assignments etc are usually decided by the respective conference, Sen. McConnell will probably allow Sen. Perdue to keep seniority for most important purposes. However, I doubt that the official Senate list of senators will ignore that lapse in service. We'll just have to see after the election. If both Republicans are reelected, I think Sen. Loeffler will be de jure more senior than Sen. Perdue. Sdrqaz (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Sdrqaz, (1) I'm not sure when Loeffler's appointment expires. If it's "upon the election of a successor," then the special election term of service for that seat (whether it's her term or Warnock's) begins at the same time as the term of service for the winner of the runoff for the Perdue seat, in which case if both Loeffler and Perdue win, they would not change seniority in relation to each other. (2) I have no idea how the Senate would handle this kind of a short break in service. The only thing I know of that is remotely relevant as a precedent is Kent Conrad's (North Dakota) seat switch in 1992 - he declined to run for re-election to the seat he held, but then the other Senator (Quentin Burdick) died and, after Conrad's successor in one seat was elected, Conrad was chosen to replace Burdick in a special election for the other seat. Conrad's service is not considered to have been interrupted, because he never left office. There are several ways that Perdue's service would be considered unbroken - the Governor could appoint *him* to a three-day term so that he wouldn't leave office between noon on the 3rd and the swearing-in following the runoff election; McConnell could make a unanimous consent request that he not be considered to have left office; and there are probably other ways to do it. Without a definitive answer, I don't think we should change anything. (On a related note, if Ossoff and Warnock both win, Ossoff will be senior because the absolute final tiebreaker is alphabetical order.) JTRH (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@JTRH: Well, under the Seventeenth, temporary appointments are until the people fill the vacancies by election. I personally doubt that Gov. Kemp would appoint Sen. Perdue on January 3 due to their animosity at the moment. It's certainly possible, but the Governor's not made any indication yet. While Sen. McConnell could probably do that unanimous consent request, it's also unprecedented and probably in violation of the Twentieth Amendment. If we look at recent history, Sen. Frank Lautenberg had a break in his service between 2001 and 2003 and had been lured back to the Senate with a promise that his seniority would be restored by Democratic leader Tom Daschle, but that didn't come to pass. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

SdrqazSome appointments are also time-limited by state law. I don't know what the Georgia law is. Even if Kemp and Perdue don't like each other, it serves the state's interest for the senator not to lose his seniority because of a four-day break in his service. The Senate makes its own rules, so they could certainly vote to consider his service uninterrupted if they chose to do so. As to the 20th Amendment, Perdue's current term absolutely ends on Jan. 3. I meant that he could be appointed for a term of a few days between noon and Jan. 3 and the swearing-in of the winner of the runoff election, whether that's himself or Ossoff. I think the short answer is "we don't really know." Hopefully, the Ga. media will do some reporting on this. You've certainly raised an interesting question. JTRH (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, I have never heard of Senate appointments being time-limited under state law. State law is unable to circumvent the Constitution. Appointments are time-limited in the sense that they only last until a successor is elected in a special (or regular) election, yes, but I have never heard of an appointment lasting (for example) a year before the appointee is automatically kicked out of office without a successor. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:06, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Sdrqaz"Georgia Code: § 21-2-542. Special election for United States senator vacancy; temporary appointment by Governor

Whenever a vacancy shall occur in the representation of this state in the Senate of the United States, such vacancy shall be filled for the unexpired term by the vote of the electors of the state at a special election to be ::::::::held at the time of the next November state-wide general election, occurring at least 40 days after the occurrence of such vacancy; and it shall be the duty of the Governor to issue his or her proclamation for such ::::::::election. Until such time as the vacancy shall be filled by an election as provided in this Code section, the Governor may make a temporary appointment to fill such vacancy."

You raise a really good point. Perdue's term expires at noon on January 3 (which raises the question of why the state schedules runoffs after the new Congress has convened). Loeffler's appointment expires "until the vacancy shall be filled by an election." So theoretically, she will be in office between the 3rd and the election a couple of days later, and he won't. The issue is whether he will lose seniority because he's out for a couple of days. I tend to think not, but it's a very good question.

As far as the general issue of gubernatorial appointments, the 17th Amendment says the legislature may empower the executive to make a temporary appointment. They don't have to. Oregon, for example, requires the vacancy to remain until filled by a special election. Alaska repealed the governor's appointment power after Frank Murkowski filled his own vacancy by appointing his daughter. The legislature can put conditions on the appointment - for example, some states require the governor to appoint someone of the same party as the previous senator, or choose from a list provided by the previous senator's party (which is the case in Wyoming). Massachusetts time limits the appointment in the sense that the special election has to be held within a short period after the vacancy occurs (for example, Scott Brown's election to the Kennedy seat, and Ed Markey's election to the Kerry seat), rather than waiting until the next biennial regular election is held. That was what I meant by time limit. JTRH (talk) 12:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the bizarre timing is because election law requires "time for overseas voters to return ballots" for federal elections. Something I've learned today! As for the other states, I was aware of the situation there, but I didn't think it was relevant since we were talking about Georgia. I now understand what you meant by "time limit". Sdrqaz (talk) 16:51, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• • • • begin Carlm0404 (talk) 14:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I notice, above, "if she loses reelection" regarding Kelly Loeffler. She is currently an appointed (not elected) Senator, so what I quoted should be "if she loses the runoff".

I see "Clearly, you lose seniority when you retire and return. Lautenberg, Kyl, Dan Coats, Slade Gorton, etc." Barry Goldwater and Hubert Humphrey each left the Senate then returned by being elected to the respective state's other Senate seat. Former Senator and VP Walter Mondale came out of retirement to run after Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash, but Mondale lost that election.

What if Norm Coleman, who got in court fight regarding re-election in Minnesota in 2008 and had to cease as Senator as old term expired, had prevailed in such fight? That didn't happen; he eventually conceded loss, and Al Franken joined the Senate 6 months late. Somewhere on talk here at Wikipedia it's said the governor of Georgia can NOT make temporary appointment at start of new term, so Perdue faces service interruption even if he wins runoff.

• • • • end Carlm0404 (talk) 14:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

In 1957, special election was needed after death of U.S, Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin. The governor could not fill the vacancy. Carlm0404 (talk) 18:55, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The situation of 2007 is not a good example in Determining length of seniority

The situation of 2007 is a not complicated example in Determining length of seniority. It only has Former House members and the rank of population. The situation of 2011 has Former governors and a complex situation in Former House members.

$g(x)={\frac {1}{\sigma {\sqrt {2\pi }}}}e^{-{\frac {1}{2}}\left({\frac {x-\mu }{\sigma }}\right)^{2}}$ 19:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

GriefCrow, if you want to replace the information with a more up-to-date example, then go ahead. Sdrqaz (talk) 20:13, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Sdrqaz, I just finished the replacement. $g(x)={\frac {1}{\sigma {\sqrt {2\pi }}}}e^{-{\frac {1}{2}}\left({\frac {x-\mu }{\sigma }}\right)^{2}}$ 22:20, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

GriefCrow, great! I have reworded it for greater clarity. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Committee/leadership positions

Kentyd, your concerns with that column seems to be of a purely cosmetic nature. Given that its introduction did not break the table, it was probably not necessary to remove the column wholesale. If you wish to shift it over to the right, go on and do so. Sdrqaz (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

David Perdue?

What happened to Perdue on the list? Why only 99 senators? Are we waiting for tomorrow's results? He is still a sitting senator. J2m5 (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

J2m5, David Perdue left office on January 3. See this source, amongst others. Sdrqaz (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Sdrqaz Oh wow, had no idea. Thanks! Sorry to be a use of your time. J2m5 (talk) 02:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Not at all, J2m5; happy to help! I believe this situation is unprecedented (or at least highly, highly unusual); the runoff date took me by surprise when I was first made aware of it. Sdrqaz (talk) 02:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, Senators' terms always expire on the 3rd of January of the year in which their term ends, in the absence of a special situation brought about by an interim appointment. -Waidawut (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Interesting though. If he gets elected to his former seat, will the Senate let him retain his previous senior status? GoodDay (talk) 02:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, that was discussed at Talk:Seniority in the United States Senate/Archives/2021#"Senior senator from Georgia". Having spoken to the Senate Historian's Office, they are of the opinion that it'll be up to the Republican Conference whether to let him to retain his seniority for committee assignments etc. On an official basis, I think Perdue will have lost his seniority but will de facto keep it, as the main advantage of it is up to Sen. McConnell. Sdrqaz (talk) 03:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Sdrqaz: "Having spoken to the Senate Historian's Office" → WP:OR. I'd rather let some reliable published source report on it. —GoldRingChip 14:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I know it is original research, GoldRingChip. We've discussed it before. I was just answering GoodDay's question. What the Republican Conference decides to do has no standing for this list anyways. Sdrqaz (talk) 14:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I see. OK. If the Republican Conference has no standing, who does? —GoldRingChip 15:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

GoldRingChip, the seniority lists we have here are based on the Senate's lists. They're the official ones, so to speak. However, committee assignments are up to senators' respective conferences/caucuses. So Sen. McConnell is free to ignore the official list if he so wishes (though possibly subject to a vote in his conference, but I don't see his decision being overturned). That's my understanding of the matter, anyways. Sdrqaz (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I think his Senate seniority (as opposed to conference or committee seniority) can be retained (or not) by a Senate vote. But things will be clearer after the election is over, and it’ll undoubtedly be reported in the media. JTRH (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

In a quorum call after all senators sworned in, Mr. Perdue wasn't on that list. https://floor.senate.gov/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=3987 Noncommittalp (talk) 06:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

The seat is vacant because his term expired on Jan. 3. It will remain vacant until the election results are certified. The issue is whether, if he wins again, being out of office for 12 days will wipe out the seniority he gained from his previous term. That's not yet clear. JTRH (talk) 06:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that this issue will soon become moot, as Sen. Perdue is projected to lose the election by most journalists (although the AP has not called the election yet). While the nerd in me is disappointed, the Wikipedian in me is very relieved. Sdrqaz (talk) 13:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Tiebreaker example

The six people who took office on Jan. 3, 2021, are a simpler and more current example of the tiebreakers. Would there be any objection to my updating what’s there now? JTRH (talk) 14:51, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Ben Ray Lujan, Cynthia Lummis, Roger Marshall, John Hickenlooper, Bill Hagerty, and Tommy Tuberville all took office in January 3, 2021. Their seniority rankings are determined as follows: The first three listed previously served in the House of Representatives – Lujan for 12 years, Lummis for eight, and Marshall for four. Hickenlooper is a former governor. Of the two with no previous government service, Hagerty outranks Tuberville because Tennessee’s population is greater than Alabama’s. JTRH (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@JTRH: I think the current example was intentionally chosen because of how complex it was; see GriefCrow's conversation with me above. I'm personally fine with either. Sdrqaz (talk) 21:43, 26 January 2021 (UTC)